| Author | Message | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 494 Registered: 7-2005 |
Since the current Sabbath School Lessons in the Seventh Day Adventist Church deals with the question of the meaning of atonement, I found it properly to translate my resignation letter (written in Romanian, my native language, since I’m a Romanian guy living in Romania) and make it public because it’s related to the issue of the finished atonement. Hope that it will clarify the questions regarding the meaning of the expression “finished atonement” in both the Evangelical camp and the Adventist camp.
Soli Deo Gloria, To God alone be the glory Gabriel | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6014 Registered: 3-2004  |
Gabriel, Thank you for posting your resignation letter. It is very well done. May our awesome God continue to bless you. Diana L | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 737 Registered: 7-2005  |
Gabriel, your letter is brilliant! Superbly done. Thank you so much for sharing it. I hadn't ever seen a synopsis of these events in Adventism presented so concisely. You have great courage and you give me great courage, as well. Honestwitness | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1381 Registered: 11-2005 |
Gabriel, that is a great letter and very succinct. What kind of response did you get back from them? My experience has been that most Adventists really do not know their Bibles, and when confronted with such clear evidence they scramble to reaffirm their original position by attempting to find validation in the writings of Ellen White. When I attempted to study the book of Hebrews, verses 1:1-2, with one Seventh-day Adventist pastor they immediately responded with the suggestion that we would gain a much greater blessing if we studied the book "Great Controversy" together! These people's hearts are so stony that only the Holy Spirit can reach them. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 725 Registered: 5-2007 |
Does that sentence need any repair?
That text standing alone still condemns us all, for we have all committed evil deeds in some manner after receiving faith.
This suggests Martin ran across the element of confusion, of Babylon when he became aware of such. Congratulations Mr. Martin, you have discovered the slickest of the confused! A heretical plant rooted in a lie (sda) put forth a lookalike, but false fruit - QOD - to attempt winning over Martin. It worked. But the heretical plant did not continue producing better and better fruit, it merely relapsed into producing evil fruit, that resulting from rationalizing 1844 and not repenting of such.
How can there be any change when their own false-prophtess says this: "Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly (sanctuary), at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation." Ellen White, Early Writings, p. 253 "So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God." Great Controversy p. 480 Nowhere does the new testament confuse the atonement with mediation and intercession. It says He lives always to interecede for us, not always to keep atoning. The latter is just sda's attempt to bring confusion in, due to the root of sda confusion - that of unrepetant time-setting. This may be a little redundant, but are the sda's trying to redefine what atonement means? They frequently run that direction - re-definition. If anybody has the spirit to question you, just ask them why everybody 2000 years ago had assurance of salvation, without a "second and final atonement"! Jesus one-time, complete atonement must have given Him the right to intercede for us continually. In scripture, there is no intercession without atonement. If Paul had perfect assurance way back then, we can have perfect assurance right now. Time has changed nothing about the gospel. Only those who would pervert and distort time go on to preach a false gospel. And that started with unrepentant time-setting as the seed that developed into the cancer of IJ. Isn't it crystal clear that adventism argues with mainstream Christianity at every single turn, doctrine, and definition? sda agrees on utterly nothing without re-defining all terms. And they want to co-opt the term Christian as well, calling themselves sda christians. How trojan! adventism is the big wood trojan horse that calls itself Christian. It enters the mind, perhaps using a Prophecy Seminar as bait. And then unpacks itself and you see (and sadly, don't see) all the little distortions, denial of the gospel, redefining words, & evil things that spill out of it. Why was Andreason punished for going against QOD, and Ford punished for agreeing with QOD? Is this not more confusion?
Wow! Pretty telling. They were sure willing to court him, all the day long, when they understood their deception had worked on him. But just let Martin ask another question some years later, and he gets no answer!
The sda church has the devils fingerprints all over it, deception. They excel at it. Satan is very good at deception as well, he is their father. It all goes to prove that we cannot even look to the Walter Martin types for truth, as can be seen even he got deceived by the adventists. We must know the truth for ourselves. Relying on other mens opinions will lead us astray as it did to Walter Martin temporarily.
How can they be considered Christian when they believe they must worship on Saturday? And if this is NOT their belief, why do they insist on doing what they don't believe? Is there really such a thing as an sda Christian? | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 728 Registered: 5-2007 |
Lets say an sda does not believe in 2 of the fundamental 28 beliefs. Can he still call himself an sda, or is he self-deceived on this matter? What if the next sda rejects all 28 fundamental beliefs. Can he still call himself an sda, or is he self-deceived when he does? To say that anything about sda is truely Christian is to be as deceived about the nature of it as was Walter Martin. He got took, we got took, and it is our job to warn others that they do not get "took". Rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith. - Paul to Titus | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 495 Registered: 7-2005 |
Diana, Honestwitness, Gilber, I'm glad that you found the letter useful. This is actually the third letter I wrote because my former congregation exchanged three pastors, and they hoped that I'll change my mind. Since the best Adventist apologist they have in Romania was a friend of mine and member of their congregation, they left him to deal with me. Even if he failed, they still entertain the idea that, since I'm a reasonable man, I'll come back. One of the most common apologies I met was the claim that the specific Adventist doctrines are not opposed to grace. Since QOD obtained for the SDA church a respectable status in the evangelical world, it is used as proof of Adventism's evangelical status. And if they can persuade me that they are evangelical, that they no longer believe in a heretical doctrine of incomplete atonement and the Investigative Judgment is not opposed to the gospel, why leave an evangelical church? And this gave me the idea that if I show them that Adventism at its best is not evangelical, if their best shot misses the mark, they will understand that, at least for the moment, they run out of ammunition because I'm not buying their defense. Of course, they think that I'll be again one of them when the Sunday Law will be enforced, but that does not help them for the moment. After they received my letter, they removed my name from the membership list. I don't know if I persuaded them one way of another, I cannot claim that this letter was a success. All I know is that I tried to communicate them that I looked at the brightest side of their church I found that it's not different than the rest. There is another reason for which I adopted this approach. There is the common idea that I'm hurt and I'm not objective in my approach, so I wanted to confront them with an external standard, coming from Walter Martin who was the friendliest critic of Adventism, the one who gave them their present respectability and see if they match his standards. Of course, it's impossible to be on the same page with Walter Martin on the subject of the finished atonement when it becomes clear what it is, and in this situation it becomes clear that their present respectable status is based on a felicitous misunderstanding, and a successful image campaign. So it's not I, the disgruntled Adventist member with whom they have an issue, but with a never-been Adventist who intentionally was favorable to the church, somebody with whom they will have a hard time accusing of bad motivations. I don't know how many of the church board read my letter, or if the pastor and the elder to whom I sent it had read it from cover to cover. All I know is that they offered no reason for my resignation letter when they took the vote for my case, letting people fill in the blank. Gabriel | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 496 Registered: 7-2005 |
You are right, I'll contact Colleen to edit my letter. I wanted to write "is" and I hit the letters in reverse orders and added an "n" since in the proximity I used "sin". Gabriel | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 549 Registered: 7-2007 |
The apostle Paul makes it so clear when he says to believers (in Ephesians 2:8,9; 2nd Tim. 1:9 and Titus 3:5,6) that believers "have been saved by grace." When I was an Adventist, I couldn't quite believe this, because Ellen White contradicted it by saying that no one should say that they are saved. Thinking that Ellen White "explained" the Bible, I would therefore try to take a position halfway between the two and get a "sort" of assurance of salvation. That assurance never lasted though because no matter how they sugar coat it, Adventists can never believe they "have been saved." No, there's the "investigative judgment" and the keeping of the Sabbath which is supposed to be a "test of loyalty" in the end times; that they have to get through first. Then like all the cults, they think that hopefully they will make it to heaven. Though they preach "grace" they still believe in works in order to be saved, though that's pretty hidden from the casual observer. That belief in works completely undermines the salvation they strive so hard to achieve. Notice Romans 10:3 (and Philippians 3:9) which says: "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God." It really breaks my heart to see people in the cults who think they have to do something in order to achieve their own salvation. Yesterday, I talked to a sad eyed man in the chapel on the government facility where I work. I was trying to tell him that salvation is a free gift. Though he is Catholic, he seemed to agree with me; he said he thanked the Lord every day for salvation. Then he let me know what was really on his heart by saying: "...if I don't thank Him, He might take it away." I tried again to explain, but he couldn't seem to understand. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 497 Registered: 7-2005 |
I agree with Chris Lee's article from Proclamation, "Why we "fight", Issue January/February 2008. I'm quoting from it:
I think that its safe to keep the system and individual believers distinct in our evaluation. Consider this: Walter Martin knew Desmond Ford, a committed Adventist, do you think that it is safe to conclude, as Walter Martin did, that since Des Ford preaches the gospel, it results that the Adventist system is OK? I don't think so, and this is why I'm restraining myself to judge the system as a system, and leave to God the evaluation of individual cases. Gabriel | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6018 Registered: 3-2004 |
Gabriel, I agree that we can judge the adventist system, but not the individuals. God has His sheep in all churches. When they hear Him calling them, they will come out. In the meantime, it is not mine to judge the individuals. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9029 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jackob, we will be posting your letter on the website. We've been totally snowed under email, calls, mail, etc. since we got back. We've not been able to begin dealing with the issues right at hand because of the back work we've had to complete. I'll be in touch with you by email soon--probably this next week--re: your letter. It is very good. Colleen | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 732 Registered: 5-2007 |
When and person tells you he is sda, then admits he does not believe in a single fundamental belief, you have to make a judgement about his beliefs. Something is very wrong. Why is it so necessary to be politically correct and not judge beliefs? That is ludicrous. Titus addresses people who teach things that should not be taught, and later calls them "both their minds and consciences are corrupted. They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny Him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good." Would you care to correct St. Paul in this matter? He is addressing their MINDS and their CONSCIENCES. Since when can we not judge what comes out of their mouths? That is all we have to go on. If you really cannot discern what comes from their mouths, then all communication has broke down, and you are admitting to widespread babylon pandemonium. And this is clearly not the case. We do not preach the gospel to a system. We preach the gospel to discrete people, then listen to feedback, either pro or con. We have to be discerning enough to be able to judge heresy that comes from their mouths. Please address my post 728 in your own words. BTW, I think your letter is very good overall, I am just nitpicking at a particular concept. We do not have Paul writing Titus, saying he is not able to judge people who teach wrong things. He judges very confidently. | ||
| Teresa Registered user Username: Teresa Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2006 |
I have quoted St. Paul numerous times to my SDA friends and they disregard it. Ellen's interpretation of the Gospel is ingrained in their minds, whether they are conscious of it or not. We are not wrestling against flesh and blood! Only the Holy Spirit can lift the veil. The true Gospel of Jesus Christ is not that complicated. I really am tired of all "denominations" that want to add to the simple Gospel of Jesus. Paul tells us that they should be accursed! I choose to believe God and St. Paul and will not compromise the Gospel with anyone! Grace and Peace, Teresa | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 250 Registered: 10-2005 |
When and person tells you he is sda, then admits he does not believe in a single fundamental belief, you have to make a judgement about his beliefs. Something is very wrong. But I was this way for two years before I left the church,I would say,I i didnt beleive in all of the fundamentals,just some. But it was just that,that led me out.so I dont think we can ever judge someone who is still "in" the church,you don't know where they are heading,it may be OUT. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 747 Registered: 5-2007 |
Wolfgang, thanks for commenting. Believing a foreign gospel counts to God as no Gospel at all. adventism teaches a foreign gospel. You would have had to articulate what you believed the gospel to be, at that time, for anyone to determine if you had a foreign one or not. Can you honestly say you did not believe a foreign gospel? Did you think sabbath had something to do with salvation? Did you think Jesus atonement 2000 years ago was not sufficient? They do teach a second and final atonement! Which fundamentals did you not agree with? Wouldn't you agree that somebody that claims they are 100% sda, but agreed with 0% of their beliefs, is really confused? Anyone that hands over any money at all, tithes or offerings, in the sda denamination, are propagating a foreign gospel. You don't even need to speak a word to spread a cursed gospel, there are plenty that will do it with the aid of your cash. Was one of the fundamentals you disagreed with that of tithes and offerings? Because you know what that would be spent on. I am not arguing with you about people coming out of adventism. I will state again that St. Paul called them unfit for any good work, he calls them detestable, he calls them corrupted. And that was a picture of you and me until recently, right? And only by Gods mercy are we not counted as that anymore. It was not your doubt that you can credit for leading you out. Credit God with leading you out. Before He showed you and me mercy, we qualified for all those things that St Paul said in Titus. We supported the teaching of things that should not be taught, directly or indirectly. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 498 Registered: 7-2005 |
Larry,
He's still defending the other 26 points, and very probably will think that I hastily dumped the baby with the water when I left the Adventist fold. He's acting still as a committed Adventist.
That's a hypothetical situation which I doubt really exist. Simply I can't see how somebody expressing rejection of ALL Adventist beliefs can still call himself an SDA.
Well, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by something about Adventism being "truly Christian", and I'll deal with what I suppose was your intention. If you intended to say that there is no Christian truth in Adventism, no elements of Christian doctrines, I have a different view. Adventism as a system resembles Christianity closely because it is a combination of Christian truth and errors which portraits a false painting. Looking at particulars, we can arrive at erroneous conclusions, either positive or negative about Adventism, but only when we evaluate the system, all elements of Adventism working together, we can clearly see that it is a false system. For example, we are free to keep any day for the Lord, and if anybody wants to keep Saturday holy he's free to do it, as long as he's not condemning and judging others for not worshiping on Saturday. As long as Saturday worship is a question of personal preference and not something that people impose on others, even if it's strange and erroneous, it's still not a denial of the gospel of free grace. It may reflect a weak faith, and we should be concerned about the spiritual condition of that person, but it's still not heresy. Looking at Saturday keeping in isolation from the rest of Adventist doctrines, it will give us an erroneous impression, one of the reasons Adventism receives a positive evaluation from other evangelical Christians. But when we look what Saturday keeping means in the context of the Investigative Judgment and the entire eschatological (end time doctrines) Adventist scheme, with Sunday worship as mark of the beast, Saturday keeping as a sine-qua-non condition of salvation, it becomes evident that it is a denial of justification by faith alone and salvation by grace alone. It makes salvation hang on keeping this particular law, of keeping the Saturday holy. Only when we look at the big picture we clearly see that Adventism Saturday keeping is dangerous and contrary to the gospel. At individual level, it is quite possible that an Adventist can keep Saturday holy without judging other people's salvation, out of gratitude for salvation. Such a position is not a denial of the gospel of grace. Two examples come to my mind: 1. Desmond Ford, still a sabbatarian, long time Adventist. Colleen and Richard were questioned by somebody regarding publishing an article of Des Ford in the January/February issue of Proclamation!, giving the fact that the editors are seeing Sabbath keeping as contrary to the gospel. Here is the editor's answer from page 23, May/June issue of Proclamation!
2. Greg Taylor, before renouncing sabbath keeping and leaving the Adventist Church. He wrote an article when he was still an Adventist pastor, "Has the Sabbath Become Our Christ" which was published in the September/December of Proclamation!. Written from the perspective of a convicted sabbatarian, it was written with the goal in mind of rejecting it's salvation importance which the Sabbath has in Adventism. He said:
I admit that these two brothers are exceptions, and do not reflect the typical Adventist understanding. They are examples that God can save people in a false system of believe, not because of the system, but in spite of it. On the other hand, the average Adventist has no right to appeal to these two examples in order to rationalize their sabbath keeping. There is another side of the coin, and, after answering why Des Ford's sabbatarianism should not be considered a point of division, the editors of Proclamation affirmed
In the context of the official SDA teaching about sabbath's role in the final salvation, mark of the beast issue, clinging to sabbath keeping likely reflects trusting in works for salvation, fearing a judgment of works which will possible condemn the believer in spite of his faith in Jesus Christ. That's a denial of the gospel of justification by faith alone, apart from works, and we should not be content to let people believe that their saturday keeping is OK. At the same time, it's quite possible that an Adventist who has true faith, but which is weak, may still cling to sabbath keeping out of fear of offending God, since he was taught from childhood that in God's eyes the fourth commandment is the greatest commandment, and disregarding it is the equivalent of open rebellion against God. This person needs to be fed with the gospel of grace in order that his faith may be strengthened and in due time come to the place of understanding that he needs to overcome his fears, otherwise these fears will overcome him and destroy his faith. If there is something that makes the Adventist system dangerous is the fear which it instills in people. The most common fear is of loosing salvation for not keeping the sabbath. This fear is not benign, and it has such a powerful effect that it may harass even true believers for years. This is why Colleen recommends that former Adventists should not read Adventists papers until they are firmly rooted in God's grace. It takes in account the reality of our weaknesses and also the power of deception, the reality of the spiritual war. For those still trapped inside the church, being a true believer is a dangerous position. They are not fed with the gospel, they are in a culture built on a false gospel that is draining their energies even when the specific doctrines of Adventism are not explicitly taught, but are in the background. God's will is to connect them with a church which preaches the gospel, albeit imperfectly, in order to fed them with the true food for their soul. Larry, last but not least is God's clear command for Christians to take a stand and separate themselves from error. Once the truth about the gospel is believed, and the anti-gospel position of the Adventist Church understood, remaining a member in the SDA Church is a violation of this commandment. Since our salvation is based not on our perfection of sanctification, but we are justified apart from works, remaining in the SDA Church after understanding its anti-gospel character and God, even if it is sinful, it may reflect his imperfection of sanctification, and not his status (saved or unsaved). Maybe God had not yet finished his work with this particular individual. I'll not judge him previously to the last judgment. Larry, if you think that I'm too soft on Adventists, read the following: 1. Adventism preaches a false gospel. 2. A false gospel does not bring people to faith. 3. Consequently those who believe in a false gospel are false Christians. On an individual level, I'm not assuming that this or that Adventist is a true Christian when he preaches or believes in a false gospel. At the same time, knowing God's power to save people despite the system, I allow room for exceptions. On an individual basis I can only warn Adventists that the gospel they believe is a false gospel which has no power to save them. I can present the right position and the wrong one regarding the gospel and tell them where salvation is to be found. I can warn them that they place themselves in a position that will condemn them at the last judgment. My message to Adventists is: "If you want to be saved, renounce any trust in your works, as your professed system of belief teaches, and embrace Jesus Christ alone for your justification before God" Hope that this clarifies my position. Gabriel | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 352 Registered: 10-2006 |
You know, I'm not sure that all of my beliefs are scripturally sound at this point in my journey with Jesus. I only know that I want to follow Him into all truth. I don't believe it's wrong to keep the Sabbath - it's the underlying fear that one will be breaking God's commandments, taking the mark of the beast or not receiving the seal of God that causes the problem and renders it unscriptural. Paul said in Romans that whatever is not from faith is sin. I'm don't trust pastors and teachers like I once did. Studying things out for myself takes time (lots of it) and changing beliefs that had been rock hard truth is really hard - at least for me. I need to be convinced, but the Word of God and the Holy Spirit before I change. I came in through a seminar - and was only in the church for a few years and leaving was very, very hard. I can't imagine what it's like for people who are lifetimers with family members who are pastors, teachers and die hard Adventists. Still, leaving everything to follow Jesus is far better than staying in a church filled with doctrinal error. I was accused of turning people away from the church and kicked out, but left the doctrines much earlier. I should have left on my own, but couldn't seem to. I can say along with Joseph that they meant it for evil - God meant it for good. The thing that had been bothering me intensely actually for about two years was that I was useless to Jesus in evangelism, because I couldn't easily say where I went to church because I didn't want anyone else going there. I couldn't participate in any evangelistism because I didn't want anyone being baptized into that church. I had friends who needed to be baptized and I took them to another church. A wise pastor I just met said this should be the litmus test for staying or leaving a church: Can you bring someone you love to the church and trust that they will be taught truth and nurtured as believers? If not, you're in the wrong church. I'm not suggesting that we be gentle with the lies and deception of a system - just the people who are all in process. Nobody wants to be deceived. Nobody wants to be lost. They are victims of satan's lies. I'm convinced that prayer is the only thing that will soften their hearts and cause their veils to be lifted. The Bible says no one can come to the Father unless He draws them. I just heard on TV that the Mormonism is the fastest growing church in the world. That's unbelievable to me with all the stuff available online saying that they're a cult. The Bible says that satan is angry and knows he has only a short time left. Deception about spiritual things seems to be the norm of the day. Prayer and Bible study have never been as important as they are today in these times. I do believe Jesus is coming very soon. | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 353 Registered: 10-2006 |
By the way, back to the original topic about the atonement. Has anyone done a review of this quarterly like people were doing with the 1844 and the Judgment one? I'm wondering what the church is currently teaching about the atonement. I know Ellen White wrote about it starting in 1844, but heard the church was back pedalling and saying it was complete at the cross. Anyone know? | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 232 Registered: 4-2007 |
For many of my 36 years as an Adventist I had a very distorted understanding of what constituted salvation: i.e. my sinfulness, God’s grace and Christ’s complete atonement, I did not deny God but instead had a warped view, due entirely to my failure to study God’s word - but God never abandoned me! By His choice I am His and in the midst of the Adventist heresy God led me to a correct understanding of His truth. It was God who led me to accept that He existed, it was God who led me to an understanding of His Gospel truth, it was ALL the work of the sovereign God. IT IS GOD WHO SAVES, HIS WORK, HIS TIMING! We cannot determine someone’s standing with God by their currently held erroneous beliefs. Act 2:39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." Rom 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." John Douglas |
