| Author | Message | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 242 Registered: 5-2007  |
Gilbert, Since you are the EGW "quote sleuth" and have revealed some rather amazing things Ellen White has said, I was wondering if you could satisfy my curiosity concern a couple of things I was told when in SDA schools? The first statement occurred right at the start of our entry into the race to put a man on the moon. Back in the ninth grade, I was told by my SDA teacher that EGW said our home was earth and God would not allow us to leave it. Therefore any attempt to leave earth would lead only to disaster. Of course, what did happen is history. The second statement has to do with the location of heaven. In the constellation Orion, on the sword, one of the stars is really a nebula. I was told, by the same teacher, that EGW stated that heaven was located on the far side of this nebula. Astronomy has advanced to such a point, this statement also would appear to be somewhat absurd. From a strictly Biblical point of view it appears wacky to think God occupies a place that has a physical location. Even after being away from SDAism for over fifty years I still look at Orion and turn my thoughts to heaven wondering if it is really there. Of course, if any of the rest of you have ever heard these statements, please speak up. I know what I was told. I just don't know for sure if she really said them or not. Phil | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4387 Registered: 3-2004  |
I was taught that EGW said Jesus would come through the middle star of the belt of Orion. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2205 Registered: 10-2004  |
Phil, EGW did indeed say that about Orion. But not only is the concept unBiblical, it is also a very occultic/pagan/new age concept. See here: http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/orion.htm (BTW, the above article is definitely too soft on Ellen, as there are occultic/pagan/masonic references throughout her writings.) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on October 14, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6983 Registered: 12-2003  |
Perhaps Martinc will find this thread and comment. He has been doing some research and has found that the idea of Orion being an opening to an enlightened region is not only found in Ellen but was a commonly held idea even among astronomers around the 16th-17th centuries. Once again, the prophet of God borrowed some well-known and accepted ideas developed by others and passed them off among the faithful (helped by her husband) as God's special revelation. Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 465 Registered: 3-2005 |
Phil: I'm just going to bring up another Ellenism that I found tonight. I'm amazed that these keep popping up. For worship, I was reading the New Living Translation's children's series. We were reading the one about the widow at Zerapath taken from 1 Kings 17. I was reading along and came to the end and lo and behold there weren't seven sneezes after the little son was brought back to life! Did anybody else learn that? I'm certain that the "My Bible Friends" version of the story taught that after the little boy's "life" returned, he sneezed seven times. (Not to mention that his SPIRIT returned to his body!) Patria (Message edited by patriar on October 14, 2007) (Message edited by patriar on October 14, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6987 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes! Patria, I remember hearing about the seven sneezes! Well, I guess you've gotta get a reference to the concept of "7" in there some way...anything to connect the mind to Sabbath... Colleen | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 51 Registered: 4-2007  |
That's what I thought, too!! Oh boy! I don't know what's biblical and what are just EGW "additives" in even the most well know Bible stories!!! It's very frustrating! Our church is doing a series now titled "Origins" and we've started right at the beginning in Genesis. I told my pastor how much I'm enjoying his sermons since I feel like I'm studying the Bible for the very first time. I've told him quite a bit about Adventism and how I've had to re-learn so much because of the writings of EGW. I also teach the 2-year-old Sunday School class. I thought I knew all my popular Bible stories, but now I read each week's Bible story from the Biblical account just to make sure I don't accidently add any "ellenisms". How sad.... But praise God for removing the veil and giving me understanding of His Word without SDA influence!!! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1621 Registered: 9-2006  |
Patria, May I suggest that you take pepper shaker in hand, inhale deeply and sneeze seven times, that might get all the Ellen-isms out of your head and clear your sinuses.  Just me being my own smart alecky self. Just my version of friendly banter. On a more serious note, as I read this thread I am all the more convinced that my “Letter to Pastor” to go along with the book is right on and nothing needs changing in it. I thank God for his confirmation of his Spirit and that I can go with confidence. River | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-1999 |
The standard Adventist responses to this thread would be: 1) We have "additional light". (Can you prove there weren't seven sneezes?) 2) Ellen might contradict the Bible but so did the apostles and even Jesus himself. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1622 Registered: 9-2006 |
Very interesting about the obelisk Jeremy, would that be the grave of Ellen and James White in the foreground? Somehow I think you are going to answer “Yes”. Does anyone have a link to pictures of the Whites grave site? River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2206 Registered: 10-2004 |
That's it, River. Jeremy | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 536 Registered: 11-2004 |
I didn't know there weren't 7 sneezes. Thanks for helping another Ellenism to go away. I remember thinking for years that 7 sneezes must have meant something because I had never met anyone who sneezed that many times in a row. LOL - my spouse and child sneeze more than 7 times in a row so I no longer thought it special | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 252 Registered: 5-2007 |
My standard response to the standard sda response is Proverbs 30:5,6
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| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4391 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thank you God for telling me to read all the Bible stories, to my son, right from the Bible. WOW!! Look how much he missed and how much I forgot. God you have been guiding me for a long, loooooong time. You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1299 Registered: 4-2000  |
River, Notice in the "notes" that Ellen White's burial was actually delayed for 33 days, and the White Estate claims they don't know why. At her graveside service, everybody thought she was going to be buried that very day, on Saturday afternoon. According to Elder Bill Fagal of the White Estate, they ceremoniously even threw a few clods of dirt into the open grave. Interestingly, Ellen White had three funeral services (one at her Elmshaven home, one at a campmeeting in California, and the final one at the Battle Creek Tabernacle in Michigan). Willie White, Ellen's son, accompanied her coffin on the train from California to Michigan. The exact train route is unknown. Her coffin may have come through Nebraska according to the White Estate. There is speculation that her burial was delayed because they feared that Dr. John Kellogg might exhume her body and perform an autopsy on her brain. One of Ellen White's sons opened the coffin, which was held in storage for 33 days, at the Oak Hill cemetery. He wrote to Willie that "mother" still looked fairly good despite some expectable decomposition. By the way, James White's funeral was also held on a Saturday, but he was actually interred on that same day in the afternoon. Ellen White's body was only displayed for a short while before the funeral service at the Battle Creek Tabernacle. There was a rotating honor guard of two SDA ministers (one on each end of the coffin). Ellen White was very controversial, not only in her life, but even in her death. Now how is that for funeral trivia? Dennis Fischer | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 244 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, I have a photo of EGW's funeral held in the Dime Tabernacle, in Battle Creek, Michigan. If interested, I can email you a copy. An interesting "seven" is that seven years after her funeral the Dime Tabernacle burnt to the ground. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1626 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dennis, I wondered about that 33 days, that is unusually long to keep a body above ground here in America. As for the reason for it I just suspect they wanted to milk it for all it was worth, wouldn’t you think so Dennis? Of course to be fair everything moved slowly back in those days and it could have just been because of delays. Anyhow thanks for the trivia, I found it quite interesting. Yep Phil, if it ain’t too much trouble go ahead and e-mail the photo. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2210 Registered: 10-2004 |
Another interesting fact, is that at EGW's funeral they had floral arrangements of a broken column and a broken wheel. These symbols, like the obelisk on James and Ellen's grave, are Masonic, especially the broken column, which is used to signify the death of a chief supporter of Freemasonry.
And here is what the symbol of a "broken column" means:
Jeremy | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 787 Registered: 6-2006  |
I'm loving this thread! I remember my husband mentioning Orion early on in our relationship. I'm sure he probably still believes it. Lori, I've heard my family say those words more than I can count! Larry, great bible verse. Next time I hear the SDA response I'm going to use it. Leigh Anne | ||
| Churchavguy Registered user Username: Churchavguy Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2007 |
Wasn't that sneezing seven times bit from 2 Kings 4:15 when Elisha cured a Shunammite widow's son? It was not a part of the 1 kings 17 story of Elijah and the Zarephath widow's son. Maybe you got them mixed up, or maybe EGW did. Luke (Message edited by ChurchAVguy on October 16, 2007) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1302 Registered: 4-2000 |
The death of Ellen White was a great shock to devout Adventists in 1915. They were completely unprepared for the day when their church no longer had a living prophet. I am speculating that perhaps the reason or contributing factor for the 33-day delay in her burial was due to the fact that they couldn't bear the thought of her being lowered into a dark, cold grave. Their prophetess now being nonexistent, without any continuity of her personhood, didn't mesh well with their expectations of an imminent return of Christ. This was yet another "Great Disappointment" they never really expected. The Adventist life without a living prophetess was unthinkable. The typical Adventist didn't spend much time thinking about a day when their prophetess would be dead like an animal--gone, gone. Obviously, someone who is nonexistent cannot await anything, much less a resurrection. Not even God can resurrect someone who doesn't exist. The harsh reality of Ellen's death was most traumatic for the struggling church she had founded. This was somewhat akin to the death of Mary Baker Eddy who denied the reality of death and disease. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 253 Registered: 5-2007 |
Aren't there 33 degrees of Masons? Does that somehow ring the 33-day bell? egw does have an obelisk for a tombstone. I think that means something Masonic as well. She had meetings with a Mason in Australia where she repeatedly gave secret masonic hand-signs to the Mason gentleman present, and he just about had a heart attack. All the while she seemed totally unaware of what those particular signs were. Used by the devil? you decide. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1303 Registered: 4-2000 |
MORE FUNERAL TRIVIA Ellen White's death occurred on July 16, 1915 at the age of 87. From July 16 to August 26, the time between her death and burial, was 41 days. I am wondering if the funeral home in Michigan had a vault with ice to keep her body cool for 33 days. This took place during the warmest months of the year. Transporting her body by train from California to Michigan would seemingly require alot of embalming fluids so she would appear presentable on the day of her third and final funeral in Battle Creek. Nearby SDA churches were closed on the day of her funeral so members could attend her funeral. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 466 Registered: 3-2005 |
Luke! You're right! It IS from 2 Kings and there WERE 7 sneezes. (2 Kings 4:35) Thank you so much for pointing that out. I will assume that was my faulty memory at work. I threw away my "My Bible Friends" book but I'd guess this was my mistake not Ellen's. Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 467 Registered: 3-2005 |
"May I suggest that you take pepper shaker in hand, inhale deeply and sneeze seven times, that might get all the Ellen-isms out of your head and clear your sinuses. " That's funny, River!  Patria | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1630 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dennis, What you said makes perfect sense, I didn't realize it was 41 days from the time of death until they put her in the ground! Whew! I suppose they could have salted her down and jest sorta hosed her off right before the funeral. I don't guess "soul sleep" matched up too good for their prophetess either. Interesting stuff. River | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2006 |
Hello friends. Orion and its mysterious nebula have been an interest of mine since childhood. Lately I have made an intensive study of not only Ellen White's statements about the opening in Orion, but its possible roots. This is an important Adventist legend with real staying power. Here is a brief collection of what I have found so far. Ellen White Statement "The atmosphere parted and rolled back; then we could look up through the open space in Orion, whence came the voice of God. The holy city will come down through that open space." EGW, CET 111.2 It is interesting to note that Ellen White actually said very little about Orion and its "opening." JN Loughborough, Joseph Bates, AW Spalding, and others have built the legend. He wrote that Mrs. White "began a description of the 'opening heavens,' with its glory, calling it an opening into a region more enlightened. Elder Bates said that her description far surpassed any account of the opening heavens he had ever read from any author." The belief in an Orion opening has much historical precedent. Here are just two: The Astronomers "In the sword of Orion are three stars quite close together. In 1656 I chanced to be viewing the middle of one of these with a telescope... four others shone through the nebula, so that the space around them seemed far brighter than the rest of the heavens, which was entirely clear and appeared quite black, the effect being that of an opening in the sky through which a brighter region was visible." —Huygens, 1659 "Its brilliancy is not equal throughout, but the glare of the brighter parts gives intensity to the darkness which they bound, and excites a sensation of looking through it into the luminous regions of illimate space, a sensation not entirely owing to any optical illusion of contrast. [..]" Smyth, 1834 There are many others. The belief in an Orion gap or opening goes back to Huygens, apparently, 300 years before Ellen White. There had been a long standing debate among astronomers as to whether any of the nebulae were just unresolved stars at a great distance (such as Rosse), or were actually cloud-like objects much closer to earth (Herschel). Many believed that there were windows or gaps to deeper space, and that M42 was such a window. They did not understand the universe as we do, with its vast distances between galaxies. Dirk Anderson may by on to something, although there is very little in Ellen White from which to draw his connections to the occult. It is certainly true that astrology, the occult, and ancient religions saw the Orion constellation as a kind of gateway to heaven. There are many New Age websites who believe such. So did Joseph Bates, who cites John 1:51 and Rev. 19:11. Does M42 have a hole or gap? Yes! And so does any cloud. The four bright young stars within the cloud, the Trapezium, have blown out a hole around themselves with their strong stellar winds. One of the questions for me remains, for what purpose have Adventist writers created such a powerful legend out of so little from Ellen White? Why does it remain so important to many Adventists? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 7007 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, those quotes re: the broken column and broken wheel are very interesting. I find it especially interesting that it was the GC and the Battle Creek church that sent the floral arrangements in those shapes. I wonder what that signifies? That the "brethren" were also implicated in Masonry? That the Whites asked for those shapes...? (unlikely...) Yes, there is definitley evidence that the Whites had Masonic connections. Interestingly, the church has never spoken of those... Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 7008 Registered: 12-2003 |
Martin, I just saw your post above. Good questions. I wonder a couple of things: perhaps the Adventists who built the Orion legend found this idea to mesh nicely with their fascination with the imminent second coming? It does make me wonder how much dabbling (or at least curiosity) there might have been re: more occultic ideas about enlightened areas. Since date-setting Jesus' return was so overtly unbiblical, it seems to me those early Adventists, in not repenting when the rest of the Millerites did, took a spiritual "turn" that placed them in rebellion to the word of God. That sort of decision would open them to the domain of darkness rather than the kingdom of God's beloved Son. Perhaps their own spiritual compromise was at work in their fascination with Orion and the mystical ideas surrounding the concept of more enlightened regions... Just pondering. Colleen |
