| Author | Message | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 529 Registered: 11-2004 |
I've heard some recent sermons from Pioneer Memorial Church and they are quite different than what I heard back about 15 years ago when I went to school there. I actually really enjoyed the preaching at PMC back then because it was more about a relationship with Jesus than specific aspects of Adventism. When I moved away and tried to attend other SDA churches I was spoiled because the places I moved to preached about Adventism rather than Jesus. I must admit what I have heard lately is garbage! Sure, my perspective has changed but it has to be more than that. The sermons of late are all about how SDAs are the chosen, the pillars of Adventism, and EGW. It seems the focus has shifted, yet it is the same preacher. So has there been a change or am I imagining things? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6980 Registered: 12-2003  |
U2bsda, my memory of Adventism about 15 years ago (admittedly in California) is that there was more of a "grace push" in many places. The fallout from the 80's purges after Glacier View when the church fired so many pastors and especially theologians for their personal disbelief in the IJ and their not teaching it seemed to result in a "reshaping" of Adventism to look more evangelical. EGW was downplayed. Judging from my sons' experiences, I believe that even in school, while SDA doctrines were taught, there was more of an "emphasis" on "grace" and less on the distinctives and on the prophetic role of EGW. She was more of a founding "prophetic voice" in the church's foundation. In the mid-90's there was a rush of pastors who were fired, especially in the conservative Pacific Northwest, for moving away from the IJ, away from the financial structures of the Adventist church, and pushing more toward a congregational model that focussed more on "grace" and even, in some instances, a more charismatic, "Holy-Spirit" emphasis. During this time Richard Fredericks and Clay Peck were both fired, and their churches largely followed them. Unlike some of the others who were fired over the IJ and church structure but NOT primarily Sabbath and new covenant themes, Fredericks and Peck were fired for their complete embracing of the gospel and the new covenant. During the late 90's, after the development of the internet and the growing awareness of Dale's book, Sabbath in Crisis (pub 1990) and in the mid-90's, Cultic Doctrine, it seemed there was a growing movement of people at the grass roots level who began to question the doctrines and began to discover the gospel and met Jesus. Dale's book Sabbath in Crisis made a huge impact during the mid-90s. Several different people helped get the book into the hands of many SDA pastors, and by 1998, the church was beginning to directly adddress the book in ministerial meetings. I heard a taped presentation by Dwight Nelson of Pioneer Memorial which he gave sometime in the late 90's in which he preached about how John the Baptist was the prophet who foretold the first advent. The second advent would also have a preceding prophet, he taught, and declared that Ellen White was this prophet in the spirit of John the Baptist. As more and more people have left the SDA church and as previously not-widely-known material re: EGW and Adventism began to be available, especially on the internet, the Adventist church has morphed again...actually, it continues to morph. Even in the 90s the GC was pushing to enforce the SDA "distinctives," even making a declaration that all religion teachers in SDA institutions (especially, I believe, the universities) had to sign a statement of belief. There was a lot of outcry against this--especially from "liberal" bastions like La Sierra. In 2002 Jan Paulsen gave his "Theological Landscape" speech which was published in the Review (and is available online) in which he stated that no change has been made in relation to any doctrine (referring especially to the IJ), and stated also that if he gave up the Sabbath, he would stand to lose his salvation. There is a push also to get EGW translations into the hands of new converts in other countries. Yes, I believe the GC is pressuring pastors to "repackage" their message so it's "user-friendly" but distinctly affirming Adventist identity. They continue to adapt to the insights and criticisms of those who leave, but the bottom line is not changing. At this point, they're more concerned, I personally believe, in retaining members by giving them something "special" to hold onto--their true SDA special identity, than in the early 90s when they were trying hard to appear like "normal Christians". The "normal Christian" push left them with young members who didn't have a firm SDA identity. They were Sabbath-believers and Adventists by name, but they lacked understanding of what Adventism was and why it existed. They lacked that eschatological remnant identity. Remember in the 80's when most of the SDA schools took the word "Adventist" out of their names? They all became "Christian" schools. Now schools are returning "Adventist" to their names. I don't have documented demographic and sociologic data, but these are my impressions and observations as I look back over the past 15-20 years. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4382 Registered: 3-2004  |
My son met a pastor at the adventist church he attended in VA, the 3 years I was out of VA. This pastor left for all the reasons written of above. He did tell my son that one of the things he did not like was having the conference dictate to the pastors what they should preach about each sabbath. They were actually told what to preaach about and all pastors were expected to comply. This man is no longer an SDA pastor, but he is a Christian. Diana | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 174 Registered: 4-2005 |
I have lost track,how long has Dwight Nelson been at PMC? It seems to me a long time.I know that in the 90's he was influenced by Phillip Yancey the author of "What's so Amazing about Grace" and the "Jesus I never Knew". I think now the push is on the SDA "distinctives". The leaders don't want to end up like the WWCoG! Peggy | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 364 Registered: 11-2005 |
U2bsda--I don't think it's just your imagination. I have several friends still in the Berrien area, and have been told that Pastor Dwight doesn't preach like he used to. I was there in 1994-1997, and actually really enjoyed Pastor Dwight's sermons back then. He was "edgy" compared to what I was used to... (hahaha) My friends there have been telling me for the past couple of years that PMC is just not the same anymore. I haven't heard Pastor Dwight since I left Adventism, so I'm not sure if or how much he's changed. Even if I did hear him, I'm not sure if I'd be able to recognize how much of the difference is really "different" or how much I hear it differently now that my veil is removed. Grace | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 532 Registered: 11-2004 |
Okay, glad I'm not imagining things  Colleen, thanks for all the info. So much went on back then that I had no clue about. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 534 Registered: 11-2004 |
Wow, I was just listening to some old sermons from him and he presented the idea that God raised up Islam in order to bring about the reformation later on. So in his sermon he said God raised up Islam through the angel Gabriel. Does God need to raise up a religion devoid of the Gospel to do anything? He said that those who raised their hackles up against the idea were coming from a western mindset. Does it matter? Does God ever need to raise up falsehood to promote the true Gospel? If so then God was working against Himself. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 241 Registered: 5-2007  |
Falsehood is a form of lies. Since God does not lie, there is nothing about the formation of Islam that God would have had any part in. But, this is not the only time the SDA people think God had a part in telling lies or approved of anyone elses lies. All lies go back to Satan for their source. Phil | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 73 Registered: 11-1999 |
Phil, I agree 100%! God does allow the enemy to inflict punishment at times. But this is vastly differently than "raising it up". God actually gave David a choice in 2 Sam. 24 when he disobeyed God and took a census. His choices were 3 years of famine, 3 months of being pursued by the enemy or 3 days of plague. Davids answer was, "I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men." I think it's God pulling back the restraints against the enemy and allowing the enemy to be the punishment for His disobedient children. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 250 Registered: 5-2007 |
I found a pdf file that was corrupt and kept crashing my adobe reader. It had to do with Nelson and islam. This is very hard into to get at it seems. I really want a paper copy of this to show the various pastors in my town. Just in case they had any doubts! (tongue in cheek) I bet sda's would readily come to Dwights defense. Maybe they would start the spinning this way: Well, God even uses evil to his good ends. Or whatever. I can hear it even now! | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 537 Registered: 11-2004 |
The pdf study guide from that sermon about Islam does not come right out and say what he said in his sermon. He didn't state it as an absolute fact, but several times as a perhaps. Two sermons before that one (haven't heard that one yet) he apparently proves that Michael is Jesus. He does say in the Islam sermon that Jesus was the angel that appeared to Hagar and that one of the angels in Revelation is Jesus too. It is quite disappointing to me. Out of all SDA preachers I wouldn't have expected this junk out of him. I used to love listening to him as an SDA because he was seemingly focused on the right things. Phil, You made a good point. Why would they see anything wrong with God telling Mohammad a lie? They believed God told Miller a lie to bring about the founding of the SDA church. |
