| Author | Message | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2004 |
Just came back from Sunday School, where the subject was using the Word in devotions. According to James 2:19-25 we need to be both listeners and doers of the Word. The pastor spent a lot of time talking about Psalm 119 in relation to what we do with the word. We need to hide the word in our hearts, meditate on it, delight on it, set our hearts on it, and look for things to obey in it. When it comes to being doers of the word, it means walking according to, obeying it, directing our paths, turning steps to statutes, putting our hope in his laws. The whole discussion made me uncomfortable. I felt like it focused too much on Psalm 119. It doesn't seem like it ties into 2 Corinthians 3 very well. It seems like the Holy Spirit would help up us be doers of the word. I am not sure I will ever understand David's passion for the law that he writes about in the Psalms. Has anyone else struggled with this Psalm? | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 121 Registered: 6-2007 |
As a Jew, David's entire life was centered around the law. He only had the hope of the Messiah, only the shadow of what was to come. Laurie | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4355 Registered: 3-2004  |
Busymom, Can you approach the pastor and talk to him. It sounds like it would ring the bells of working for my salvation, for me. God will lead you to where he wants you. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6905 Registered: 12-2003  |
Busymom, as our pastor has explained, when David wrote "law", he was not referring to the Decalogue. (That's our Adventist immersion speaking—and it's VERY hard to undo it!) He was speaking about all of God's revealed word. To David, the "law" would have been the whole Torah—and remember, the Torah included the stories of the patriarchs, the flood, creation, the fall of man, the exodus, etc. It was the revelation of God's intervention in human history. When David said he delighted in God's law, he was referring to all the written revelation God had given of Himself. He was not meaning the Big Ten. I struggled HUGELY with this Psalm until I studied it several years ago in a summer Bible study for women at church. As part of our assignment, we had to journal this psalm. A most amazing thing happened as I journaled it. I began to see that wherever David said "law", I could replace it with "Jesus", and it made sense...even more sense from this side of the cross. Since Jesus is the fulfillment of the law, I could understand the passion David expressed for knowing God's will and God's love when I understood Jesus to be the substance of the revealed word of God which David loved. Now, I don't know exactly how your pastor understands this psalm, nor exactly what he was meaning. I do think Diana has a good suggestion; talk to your pastor. I believe that we do have some valid questions and also some insights to share with our pastors on this subject. I've found that I have become much less reactive when I hear talk about our lives being "obedient" than I used to be. As I've become more rooted in the Bible, I've begun to see that obedience is to Jesus, not to the written law, and it makes more and more sense. I do have to offer myself to Him as a living sacrifice. I do have to learn to live by the Spirit. Law is ultimately the essence of God, and we live because of and by His Law. So Psalm 119 looks very different to me than it used to look when I was Adventist. Our Adventist "perversion" of understanding "law" as the Decalogue instead of as "Torah"—which, by the way, is the Hebrew form of the Greek work Logos or "Word" (see John 1:1-4)—has literally twisted even our understanding of the Psalms. God's word and God's law is all about revealing Himself, culminating in the person of Jesus. Again, I would encourage you to talk to your pastor. You make a very good point aboaut 2 Corinthians 3 and the Holy Spirit. One of the things Christian pastors need is to understand how their former Adventist parishioners think. More and more people are leaving and joining Christian churches, and a great number of pastors really don't understand these new members. It would likely be a really good thing for both of you if you talk to him! Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 611 Registered: 7-2000 |
Busymom, the Holy Spirit will work through the scriptures to help us become doers of the word. David understood this and wrote about this in the Psalms. Have you ever studied the Bible expositionally using a book from one of the great preachers of the past as a guide? Try going over to www.ccel.org Pick 'browse' Select 'Maclaren, Alexander' and then pick a book. His expostions on Psalms were hailed in the 1800's as a new landmark in truth. Find the 119th Psalm and, with your Bible open, follow along as he writes about this Psalm. BTW---if you do this, DON'T click on the little red 'psalms' numbers in parenthese. Use the arrows at the top and bottom of the page to turn the pages. If you don't want to go through the Psalms, there also the four gospels and many other books as well. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1073 Registered: 10-2002  |
I agree with what Colleen said, Busymom. Recently the Lord brought me a lot of joy by simply understanding that "law" in Psalm 119 (and anywhere else it carries over) now means the law of the Spirit of life to us (see Romans 8). There are two senses in which "law" is used in the Old Testament. The first sense means whatever God says. When it is used this way, the terms are almost always stacked -- words like commands, laws, decrees, statutes, ordinances, etc., appear together and denote the meaning "whatever God says/orders". This can be seen in the text in Genesis which says that Abraham obeyed God's laws, commands and statues -- yet this 430 years before the Law of Moses! The Law of Moses, of course, is the second sense in which the word "law" is used, the Torah. Often, of course, these two senses of "law" overlap. But the Law of Moses is finished, and Christ has put His Spirit in us who breathes in our hearts and ears His words. The Law Himself (the Spirit) now lives and breathes in us! Take note: The word "law" is not used to mean "the Ten Commandments"! It is only used that way one time in Scripture, and that one reference is so fleeting you might miss it. Every other time "law" is used, it refers either to 1) Whatever God says/orders, and/or 2) The Torah, the Law of Moses. It is completely unscriptural to use the Biblical word "law" to refer to the Ten Commandments and not to the rest of the Law of Moses. The Law Himself, God the Holy Spirit, lives inside of you. When you read Psalm 119, understand that it uses the stacked terms --laws, commands, decrees, statutes -- and it refers to whatever God says & commands you. His Spirit lives in you, and He talks to you. He leads you and guides you. That is the law of the Spirit working in you. And when you follow His voice, He has brought you joy "running in the path of His commands", just as Psalm 119 says. His words to you have always brought you life, and He has put them in your heart. Hold onto what He speaks to you in the secret place, and keep it in your heart.  Blessings in Jesus! In His Spirit, Ramone | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 222 Registered: 5-2007  |
Busymom, As used in Psa. 119, I looked up the Hebrew meaning of the word 'law' in Gesenius' Lexicon and found that the literal meaning is; "to teach" as in a parent teaching a child. If we put Jesus Christ in the position of being our parent and is the one who is teaching us through the Holy Spirit, then this Psalm can become a rich blessing to each of us. Phil | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 84 Registered: 4-2004 |
Thank you all for your replies. Laurie, I know the law was the shadow of Jesus. But, when I hear the word law, it brings back memories of years of guilt. I am slowly making my way through John Piper's "Future Grace". He points out that there was even grace when God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses saying "The Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, ... You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own posession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine" (Exodus 19:3-5) In other words God carried them with grace before he commanded them. As an Adventist I didn't understand grace. Colleen, I love the idea of replacing the word law with Jesus in the Psalm. Thank you for the link Lone Viking. Ramone, you understand way more than I do about the Holy Spirit. Which ties into Phils post. Unfortunately, I still feel confused at times, trying to study things. Diana, I know my pastor has said he has a huge problem with legalism. He believes Adventism ranges from downright cultic to having aberrant beliefs. I know he doesn't intend for me to take Psalm 119 in a legalistic way, but it was tough for me not to take it that way when reading through it. I think I am in the right church. My husband attended family night with us the other night, and for the first time ever, led out in family worship. So thank you all for your support and prayers. | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 85 Registered: 4-2004 |
Thank you all for your replies. Laurie, I know the law was the shadow of Jesus. But, when I hear the word law, it brings back memories of years of guilt. I am slowly making my way through John Piper's "Future Grace". He points out that there was even grace when God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses saying "The Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, ... You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own posession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine" (Exodus 19:3-5) In other words God carried them with grace before he commanded them. As an Adventist I didn't understand grace. Colleen, I love the idea of replacing the word law with Jesus in the Psalm. Thank you for the link Lone Viking. Ramone, you understand way more than I do about the Holy Spirit. Which ties into Phils post. Unfortunately, I still feel confused at times, trying to study things. Diana, I know my pastor has said he has a huge problem with legalism. He believes Adventism ranges from downright cultic to having aberrant beliefs. I know he doesn't intend for me to take Psalm 119 in a legalistic way, but it was tough for me not to take it that way when reading through it. I think I am in the right church. My husband attended family night with us the other night, and for the first time ever, led out in family worship. So thank you all for your support and prayers. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 456 Registered: 3-2005 |
Busymom: I'm so glad you posted what you did. I think that the horrible fear associated with "law" and "obedience" is a common experience for us as former Adventists. I guess the way I've come to see it is that Adventism's call to obedience isn't the part that's problematic. The question lies in what we're called to obey and how that obedience affects our salvation. As spirit-led Christians, we have a desire to obey God. In fact, I wonder if that's why you feel so confused about what you heard. Your spirit cries out to obey God and yet your past experience holds you back in fear because how well you obeyed (or didn't) was directly linked to the loss of eternal salvation. Anyway, those are just my random thoughts... In Christ, Patria | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6913 Registered: 12-2003 |
Patria, I agree with your assessment. When I figured out that now I obey Jesus Himself—that my obedience is not something I'm doing to move toward victory but something I am doing from victory (thank you, Clay Peck, for that phrase!) it makes a whole new kind of sense. I'm not responding to the law--I'm responding to Jesus Himself. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1075 Registered: 10-2002 |
Busymom -- About the Spirit: He's already in you. If you are not sure, then ask Him to be in You, to drench you with Himself, His presence, His love. And then rest in Him. In John 14 Jesus promised that He would live in us and reveal Himself to us in us. He does this to each of us in different ways and in His timing. Rest in His timing. Go on in faith and in what He's convicted you of. Don't be afraid of saying "I don't know", even about what others say are important things. When we're born of His Spirit (born again), we are "babes" in the Spirit. Babies don't pop out of Mommy and start running around the room! The learning, talking, walking and living process takes a long time. Just as we see our children growing and learning, in the same way God is loving and patient with us (completely in love with us because we are His children!). And in that same way, we are growing and learning in the Spirit. At the beginning children cannot understand the things that their parents say -- but they grow to quickly understand the warm love of their parents, Mommy & Daddy's smiles, Mommy's breastfeeding, the sound of Mommy & Daddy's voice, and their touch. Things in the Spirit are very similar, I think. We're born of Him and it takes time listening in order to understand; it takes time to learn to walk. Don't rush things. But also don't think that you don't know very much, because you know more than you think! Our babies know more than they consciously think! Look at what God has done with you, and how He has led you. Look at what He has shown you is true, what He has shown you is real, and start there. In His time, He'll help you to recognize His voice in your life -- in your past, in your present, and you'll understand that His presence will be in your future. Blessings in Jesus -- in His Spirit who lives in you! |
