| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6860 Registered: 12-2003  |
OK, I'm agitated. My in-laws came over tonight, and for some reason we got out our copy of The Clear Word to show them how Daniel 8:14 compared with other versions. You guessed it: TCW writes the whole heavenly sanctuary thing into that verse. After they left, I was curious about some other texts. I now believe that if Christians would simply read TCW and compare it verse by verse with any accepted translation of the Bible, they would totally know what's wrong with Adventism--on every level. Here are a couple of comparisons: John 4:24, NASB: "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:24, TCW: "God is very much concerned about our spiritual lives and how honest and sincere we are, not about where we worship Him." TCW completely eliminates that God is spirit (Ellen said He had a body). It eliminates the fact that we have spirits that must worship Him. It completely eviscerates the meaning of that text!! 1 Thess 4:14, NASB: "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus." 1 Thess 4:14, TCW: "Jesus died and rose again; therefore, those who died bellieving in Him will be raised to life by God just as Jesus was." Here's a passage from John 10:27-30. John 10:27, NASB "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;" John 10:27, TCE "My sheep recognize my voice and I recognize them, and they follow me without hesitation." TCE eliminated the word "know". That word carries the meaning of a deep mutual knowledge like that between the Father and the Son. Recognize does not mean know. John 10:28, NASB and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28, TCE I will give them eternal life, and they will never die, nor will anyone be able to take them away from me. Notice that TCW has Jesus giving them eternal life in the future. NASB has it in the present tense. John 10:29, NASB My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. John 10:29, TCW My Father loves them too, and He's greater than I am; nobody can take them away from Him. The subtle implications of this verse are horrifying. First, TCW leaves out that the Father gave Jesus His sheep. Second, instead of exalting the Father in an eternal, sovereign way as the Bible does, TCW instead diminishes Jesus by saying, "He is greater than I am" instead of that He "is greater than all." And here's the clincher. It completely betrays the Arian bias of TCW: John 10:30 NASB "I and the Father are one." John 10:30, TCW You see, my Father and I are so close, we're one. I'll stop for now with a comparison of Romans 8:1: Romans 8:1, NASB Therefore there is now now condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1, TCW Therefore, there is no condemnation to those who hide in Christ, who refuse to follow the dictates of their sinful human natures, but whose lives are guided by the Holy Spirit. What?? There no condemnation only if we "hide in Christ," if we refuse to give in to sin, and if we're "guided by the Holy Spirit". This interpretation completely eliminates security, the new birth accomplished by the indwelling Holy Spirit (making being "guided" by the Holy Spirit an optional occupation), and it makes being in Christ Jesus something we either maintain or fail to maintain, from day to day. The heresy is shocking. Oh, yes--here's my clincher: Revelation 22:18, NASB I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18 TCW I, John, warn everyone who reads or hears the prophetic words in this book not to add anything contrary. If they do, God's seven last plagues will certainly fall on them. Way to cover one's bases... Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 837 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen, I am at a loss for words. Like Dale Ratzlaff says, They can't do this (if they had any conscience)! See also http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=72094 where I shared your observations. The truth is the road to freedom. Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years and 11 Months since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 838 Registered: 11-2005 |
ric_b also posted a great observation at http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=1872441&postcount=132 Amazing. Just totally amazing! Shocking would be a more appropriate word. I suppose when a belief system removes the Holy Spirit from the Seal of God and replaces it with one of the Ten Commandments (in the SDA's case the Sabbath) anything is possible! How in the world can the Seventh-day Adventists say anything at all about the Roman Catholics after doing this. I believe even James and Ellen White would be rolling over in their graves if they saw what "the Church" has done to God's Word! The truth is the road to freedom. Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years and 11 Months since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 202 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen, The Revelation 22:18 one really gets my goat, cuz that is one of my favorite rubber stamps! NASB clearly states "adds", Blanco changes it to "just don't add anything contrary". Well, right their he is adding, and that is contrary to the original intent! How do you like your eternity Jack, well done? I still cannot fully fathom the complete denial and deception these people are in. I was born an sda backslider and considered a black sheep all my life, so never much got into all the fineries of the -ism. So if at times I come across as impatient or irritated, it is because I was not in the full throes of it, and have less sympathy for those who were. But I am trying to see it. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 203 Registered: 5-2007 |
Well Gilbert, the same spirit is at work now that was at work back in their time. I believe if ellen and james had lived another 100 years, they would have participated in the same level of stuff, if not even worse. How could they help not doing it? Your comment almost sounds like they would be horrified! I don't think they woulda been one bit shocked! The "angels" attending ellen would have told her to do it. | ||
| Cease_striving Registered user Username: Cease_striving Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2007  |
Colleen, It boggles the mind how horribly distorted TCW is. I noticed that TCW leaves out the word "hand" in John 10:28-29. The omission takes away the believer's sense of intimacy of being held by God. He is not a watchman waiting to give His followers eternal life sometime in the future--He longs to hold us in His arms and claim us as His own forever. Cease_Striving | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 203 Registered: 5-2007  |
 In the Rev.22:18 quote; the word "contrary" is contrary. To change the very verse that warns against change is blatant, shocking!  If anyone ever attempts to use the TCW around me, I will go straight to this verse and ask them if they are ready to recieve the plague. Phil | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 348 Registered: 11-2005 |
Wow. I bet, if you took a poll, the majority of Adventists wouldn't "get" what the problem with these texts were. If you had a "test" that had the Clear word version followed by the regular version and asked "Is this text translated accurately?", I'd be willing to bet that the majority would say "yes". Afterall, the Clear Word translates it the way they've always understood it. I remember while in dental school, I attended a Bible Study that was 1/3 Adventist and 2/3 other denominations. Since non-Adventists were going to be there, I brought both my NKJV and Clear Word version (in case I had a hard to understand passage, meaning the regular verse didn't fit Adventist theology). I remember coming across Daniel 8:14 (randomly, and completely on my own) while sitting there in Bible study. I was a little shocked, but not at all concerned because to me, that was what the verse really meant (and that's a really obvious one!). At the time, when the veil was totally covering my eyes, I know that if someone pointed out these tainted texts to me, I would not see any problem. Even if someone sat there, and explained the problems to me until they were blue in the face, I know I still wouldn't get it. If I could not see the error or issue with the blatant distortion of Daniel 8:14, I would not have been able to pick up on the problems with these other texts. Like I said earlier, it was the way I read the texts to mean, anyway! The Clear Word just said what I always understood it to mean clearer! Wow. As I realize that statement, the spiritual darkness that binds the Adventist church is so evident. All of us, right now, should be praising God that we are now able to recognize the problems with these texts, because it is a miracle that our veil has been lifted and we are able to see. It is ONLY by God's grace, that we are on this side of it, and able to now recognize the deep error of Adventism. I feel like my need to pray for my Adventist friends and family just went up several notches... Grace | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 419 Registered: 3-2005 |
Phil: That made me laugh out loud. I don't know if you were joking, but I think it's a GREAT idea!!! Colleen! I had no idea about those verses that you listed. You know Romans 8:1 is my banner verse! I am sitting here with my arms tingling. You know... that feeling of shock that runs through you. You think you've seen it all and then there's MORE. Grace: I could NOT agree more. Patria (Message edited by patriar on September 23, 2007) | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 839 Registered: 11-2005 |
I realized in retrospect that I am not supposed to post links to other forums. CARM Administration reminded me of that in my cross-reference above, which prompted me to realize that I had violated the rule here as well. I apologize, and will try to do better next time.  This is really a great forum. The friendship of each of you is treasured! The truth is the road to freedom. Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 11 Months, and 1 Day since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 204 Registered: 5-2007 |
Let me introduce a new phrase: INVOLUNTARY COALITION A translation goes back as far as possible to the original sources, the original languages in this case. A paraphrase simply attempts to use modern phrases to convey the intended thought of the original. Much of the phrases in the "Clear Word" have no relationship to what is recorded in the original. I am now going to call the "Clear Word" an involuntary coalition. It certainly is not a translation and does not even fit the description of a good paraphrase of God's Word. Since nobody asked God if he wanted his word perverted with the outside introduction of text largely plagiarized from non-inspired sources, I would have to conclude it is involuntary. Phil | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4328 Registered: 3-2004  |
I get angry just reading those words from the clear word. It reminds me of the heresy, deception being played on those people in the "Bible" study I attended with my friend. Colleen, thanks for posting them. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1504 Registered: 9-2006  |
Well, I guess that’s why they call it the “The Clear Weird” er, Word, excuse me. I just don’t get it as to why they desire to make such wide changes to the wording of the Bible as it has existed in the form of the KJV in the first place. What is so difficult about the KJV, most of them use that and still make a mess of it, yet in thirty five or so years and from the beginning I have used the KJV to prayerfully look into God’s Word to see what he would say to me. I really don’t remember a time all those years when I looked into the Bible for or too various doctrines or “Themes”. My own purpose was to read the Word to see what the Holy Spirit would speak to my own heart “through it” and over the years the doctrines which I hold too emerged from the prayerful reading of it. And when I say “prayerful” I mean prayerful. While it is true I have studied after and brought myself under the tutelage of what I felt were good and fair theology instructors there was never a time when I not alert to prove up on their thoughts in the Word. Therefore having those many years of prayerful reading of the Word and the resulting confirmation to my heart by the Holy Spirit, I believe that a person who has the Holy Spirit and who “prayerfully” studies the Word to see what God would say to them would know what the Word really says about salvation using only the KJV which most of them swear by. I am not suggesting that everybody go back to the KJV here, what I am saying is why can’t they just stick to the version they’ve stuck by all these years, if they could understand that then they wouldn’t need a “Clear weird”. I honestly believe the Bible is brought alive in our hearts, not through a particular mental ability, but by the Holy Spirit working in our lives and a renewed mind and spirit and a certain seeking for God to impart his knowledge through the scripture. So if they have the Holy Spirit then why make such a mess of the doctrine of salvation, and if they don’t have the Holy Spirit then they are not saved and therefore cannot understand the things of the Spirit of which the Word is part of. I am speaking of the deep things of God pertaining to salvation and the cross of Christ. Even as a child in the Word, my heart being first brought alive I could see Christ interwoven throughout the pages of the Old Testament right there in my KJV which is the only Bible I knew of at the time. In Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Revelation 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; The Spirit saith unto the churches and saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; Well it just follows with simple logic to my simple way of thinking if these people have the Spirit then why can’t they hear him who holds the two edged sword? It is him that holds the two edged sword, not us, him. Therefore I just must come to the logical conclusion that they do not have the Spirit or they wouldn’t make such a mess. Hey, I jest gotta say it, the same Spirit that taught me through the “sword with two edges” just can’t be the same spirit that taught them, either I don’t have the Spirit or they don’t, but someone has come up on the short end of the stick here. I know that when I follow the two edged sword and allow it to do its work in my life it comes out in real life right down to where the rubber meets the road. Personally my take on it is that the reason you now understand the word is that you have been born again of the Spirit and the reason you could not understand it before was that you were not born again of the Spirit, were not willing or able to be taught by the Spirit that you did not have. Now I know that last statement is gonna raise a stink, but just show me where I am wrong, I am willing and I want to learn from you who have been there. I know, I know, cognitive dissonance, but couldn’t that have been the Holy Spirit calling to you to believe on his name and be save? River P.S. If there’s a pot I guess I just gotta steer it! | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 840 Registered: 11-2005 |
This is the stated position of one Seventh-day Adventist I have conversed with. Here are some more statements by the same party.
This is the mindset that we have to deal with! If they aren't even willing to read it, how are they going to know what it says? And yet they defend it! I have purchased a "used" copy as "evidence" so I can know what I am saying is valid. It's almost as though for most Adventists, they just don't see what "the big deal" is. That speaks volumes about their theological understanding of their belief system, and its relationship to the Bible. On a related subject, I talked to another historic Seventh-day Adventist yesterday. In the course of the conversation about family, etc, I mentioned that I had been studying the Bible 45 minutes a day, and Early Writings 45 minutes a day. So far so good. I then mentioned that I had discovered a number of interesting anomalies between the two. This party immediately went into "defense mode", and stated that Ellen warned us that in the last days that people would try to undermine what she wrote, in fact even people's own relatives would turn against them. This person said they were deeply concerned by my questioning what Sister White wrote, and that if I would read the rest of what she wrote it would all harmonize. I was reminded by this party about how my questioning Sister White could undermine my spirituality, and that unless I let the Holy spirit guide me as I read Ellen White's inspired writings that I would be led by Satan to "read all kinds of things into them" to my own eternal destruction. It is interesting how these people immediately go on the defensive, stating that Ellen White said this would happen. They never resort to the Bible as the final arbiter. It is always Ellen White! The truth is the road to freedom. Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 11 Months, and 1 Day since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 590 Registered: 7-2000 |
The whole reason that the CW Bible exists and SDA's don't have a problem with it, is this idea of 'thought inspiration'. As the GC has officially asserted, 'the words are not important, only the thoughts are' and 'God, as an author is not represented in the Bible'. You can read that in the 27 Fundamentals and the aricle on inspiration over on the White estate website. With the viewpoint of the SDA church, you can play games and translate the Word to mean anything that you want it too. That's why the first thing I always point out too any SDA that wants to 'study' the Bible, is that this issue has to be resolved for any real 'study' to occur. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1505 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well seems to me there may come a payday for manipulating and playing games with the Word Loneviking. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. A sword has depth and height, width and character. The word has the power to lead us to salvation. I have heard of many a person in a lone hotel room being led to Christ by a Gideon Bible. River | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 204 Registered: 5-2007 |
Wow wow wow!
Well, it is only logical that they will move on to greater heresy on almost a daily basis. This is a good example of it, Loneviking. I wonder what the thoughts were of Balaams donkey, is that what counted? Or was it the words I wonder? Every WORD of God is pure: He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not ADD to His words, lest He reprove you, and you be found a LIAR. Proverbs 30:5,6
Right there in Proverbs 30 it says "Every WORD of God is pure". Just how is this to be read that God is not represented as an author. Is it becoming more and more apparent that those who persist in not seeing the truth of this matter are going to be damned by God? Gilbert, egw is their Jesus. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 421 Registered: 3-2005 |
Larry: The donkey question is hilarious...just plain funny and the POINT is well taken!  I'm hijacking that unless you tell me otherwise! My concern is that the CW contradicts Scripture in the same way EGW contradicted Scripture. Unsuspecting individuals use it because they HAVE been told that it is a fabulous translation of the Bible. I've heard it said that it's "the first time the Bible makes sense...". uggh. That's a problem. River. Yes you sure did stir up the pot, but when a person will pervert the Word of God, the Spirit is not producing the fruit. It's true that God's holiness was so foreign to me in Adventism that this wouldn't have even registered on my radar just like we're seeing from the gentleman on CARM. Patria | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 207 Registered: 5-2007 |
Patria, don't consider it hijacking at all. Take whatever you can use. I am not concerned with personal credit. If the Tinkers would give me anonymous posting rights, I would use that as well. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1507 Registered: 9-2006 |
quote: 'God, as an author is not represented in the Bible'. Gee Gilbert, thats really about the grossest denial of the Bible being the word of God as I have ever seen I do believe. I doubt if the Mormons or JW would even say that. River |
