| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 758 Registered: 11-2005 |
Mary, I wish I had had you for a teacher when I was in school! Not only are you entertaining, but you are also thorough! I especially like your bit of humor about "poison plants". That's good! I think this "case study" is an excellent example of the challenge that we deal with in trying to alert others to the "error" in Ellen White's "truth". So much is truth, or at least neutral, that they focus on that and just "blow off" the error as something they don't understand. For them, her "true" statements, buttressed by a liberal sprinkling of out-of-context Bible refences give her "inspiration" the impression of credibility. When all else fails, I have had Seventh-day Adventists tell me that they "gain a blessing" from reading her works. One has to wonder why the Bible won't do the job for them, just as well? This statement certainly does not bode well for "organic gardeners". I remember not so long ago that Weimar College's list of courses included "organic Gardening". It made a special point of stating that they taught "God's way" of gardening -- without the use of non-organic fertilizers and sprays. These same gardeners won't hesitate to haul in a load of harmone-laced cow manure, or a truckload of chicken manure from chickens that have been fed chicken feed containing rendered animal parts. And what do they wash their produce in before they eat it? Most organic gardeners consider (dead) tree leaves to be one of the best things they can work into their garden. Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 19 Days since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Lucybugg Registered user Username: Lucybugg Post Number: 86 Registered: 2-2007 |
Just my 2 cents... Why does she deserve respect? IMO the only sincere part of her messages was that she was sincerely in love with the financial reward. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2127 Registered: 10-2004  |
It seems that everyone is forgetting the most important point here: EGW's "advice"/commands/decrees are supposedly "spiritual" and "authoritative." In other words, according to Adventism and EGW's own claims, to not follow her "advice" in the above quote would be SIN, and would doom you to Hell (since sinning dooms a person to Hell, according to EGW). BTW, as Mary alluded to, the "Miasma" theory that EGW promulgates in the quote was a theory that was disproven: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miasma_theory_of_disease If there is anything false in EGW's writings (and many false things have been pointed out in this one quote), then that proves her to be a false prophet. Jim, EGW was not a "Christian worker"--she was a false prophet. We are not called to "respect" false prophets. The inspired Bible writers certainly did not! Jeremy | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 216 Registered: 5-2007 |
I can't think of a way to express what I am feeling or picking up. No matter what I say, someone will twist it out of frame. So, I'll just let it go with this. A spoon full of sugar............ | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 168 Registered: 5-2007 |
Everything is permissible for me — but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible for me — but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Corinthians 6:12 Jim, can you prove egw was a Christian worker? Or is her assertion that she was good enough for us? Do you have the same sort of respect for sincere Mormon teachings? Sincerity is no substitute for the truth. I maintain we DO have to theologically judge this woman who claims to be a prophet. Did Elijah jest at the false prophets of his day, or did he pay them much respect? egw did not author any new legitimate sins, Jim. To violate the commands of 1 John 3:23 (entoles) are to not believe in the One He has sent, and to not love your neighbor. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 170 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jim, Maybe you are not fully resolved about egw? | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 676 Registered: 5-2007 |
I know I will again get heat for this but it is my opinion and I will stand on it that Ellen White was a sincere Christian who loved the Lord but was so mentally ill she could not discern truth from error. I think she truly believed her own baloney and was manipulated by others around her into thinking she had a "gift" when in fact her "visions" were 100% caused by her medical condition. She was not a prophet, period IMHO. She was seriously mentally ill and manipulated by her husband James and others around her into believing she was something she was not. She was in need of mental health treatment not adulation as a prophet or whatever. Too bad she didn't get the treatment she needed millions of people may have been spared the spiritual abuse from Adventism. I know I will again get static from some people for this but I sincerely believe Ellen was mentally ill and her baloney was 100% the product of her mental illness and netiher from God nor Satan. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 171 Registered: 5-2007 |
Reb, do Christians teach salvation by works? egw did. What is your proof she was not manipulated by the devil? Don't you think the devil can use her mental condition as well? Does he even need a pre-existant mental condition for a false prophet? Can you document a head injury or mental condition in Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russell? Do you have proof that James White was not manipulated by the devil? There seems to be plenty of theological evidence that he was. I think what is baloney is pawning egw's spiritual condition off on mental illness. Had she been Gods girl, He would have overcome that for her. (Cuz He is huge!) Reb, there is no third option when it comes to salvation. Either it is from God, or it is not. (Message edited by Larry on September 10, 2007) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2128 Registered: 10-2004 |
Good point, Larry, about Elijah. Elijah taunted and made fun of the false prophets of Baal, even using vulgar speech:
Let's see how much "respect" Paul had for false prophets:
Jeremy | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 759 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi Jim, Please allow me to share my thoughts with you in a spirit of love. I would have to respectfully disagree with your analysis that
I know that we both agree that the interpretation is in the "eye of the beholder". "Christian workers of our past" is an exceedingly generous term, that I am not sure many of us would feel correctly identifies ther persona of Ellen White. Since we are using the term "Christian" instead of Seventh-day Adventist", perhaps it would be more appropriate to apply a statement like this to an evaluation here of people like Albert Schweitzer, Dwight Moody, Charles Spurgeon and a whole host of dedicated missionary-minded people. To my knowledge none of them ever made the kind of mind-bending claims that Ellen White made, nor did they conjour up all kinds of falsehoods about those who questioned them like she did. She was especially vicious in using her power of group manipulation as a very effective tool to silence anyone who dared to disagree with her. In this case to make the statement fit, since only Ellen White is referenced here, it would have to be interpreted as
Ellen White did not position herself as a health journal columnist writing thoughts that she felt would be useful for others. She held herself up as God's mouthpiece. Even today, the Seventh-day Adventist denomination uses her to interpret the Bible. I do not know of a single instance where the Seventh-day Adventist denomination has officially take a position that disagrees with her interpretation on anything. Can you name even one, and provide the source? The Seventh-day Adventist denomination has gone so far as to elevate her to the stature of a (the) "continuing, authoritive source of truth". My dear mother taught me many valuable heath tips, but I don't ever expect the Seventh-day adventist Church to elevate her to the position described. She certainly would never make any such claims for herself. The Bible is very clear about us validating what we are being told by thos who claim to be God's messengers. "Propensity" is an odd term indeed to use in this case. The Bible writers would consider it to be nothing less than a mandate, or a warning. Paul can't get any more emphatic than he is about this principle when speaking to the Galations in Galations 1:8-9. Regarding "scorn and amusement", I don't think that many of us see it that way. We first try to make sense out of what she wrote. I would hope that we are in agreement that she wrote many "non-sensical" statements. Most authors don't do that to improve their credibility. When she wrote, for example, How do you propose that we interrpete it? I don't think that most of us are at a point in our spiritual journey where we are still trying to determine whether she told the truth every time she said the God "showed" her something, or that Assuming that sufficient evidence has been established in our own minds that Ellen White is indeed a false prophet -- a very serious charge indeed, we next have a responsibility to expose what it is that makes her a false prophet. That is the purpose of these posts on Exposing Adventism. Dr. Harry Ironside wrote an excellent paper, "Exposing Error: Is It Worthwhile?". It is available at http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/exposingerror.html The apostle Paul admonishes us to "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Eph. 5:11). We are called upon to "contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints," while we hold the truth in love. The faith means the whole body of revealed truth, and to contend for all of God's truth necessitates some negative teaching. The choice is not left with us. Our Lord prophesied, "Many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." Within our own day, how many false prophets have risen; and oh, how many are the deceived! Paul predicted, "I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch." My own observation is that these "grievous wolves," alone and in packs, are not sparing even the most favoured flocks. Undershepherds in these "perilous times" will do well to note the apostle's warning: "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers." It is as important in these days as in Paul's-in fact, it is increasingly important-to expose the many types of false teaching that, on every hand, abound more and more. Your brother in Christ, Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 19 Days since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 760 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jeremy, those are some really powerful statements. You must be a walking encyclopedia. I can't wait until you get your website up.  Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 19 Days since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 172 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jeremy, Jesus called the Pharisees "brood of vipers" too! In this day and age, they might have used a term referring to the male progeny of a female canine! I certainly do, especially when I know they are snaring people for the lake of fire. (and lying throught their teeth to get the job done, grrrrr.) Yes, God is angry with the sda organization, I believe. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2129 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here is what EGW says about compost piles:
Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2130 Registered: 10-2004 |
Reb, We don't have to guess about whether or not EGW was a Christian:
Jeremy | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 217 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am not in disagreement regarding FAF's positions on EGW. I was taught to respect the ministry and ministers of all denominations. Even if I did not agree with their beliefs. I understand that harshness was used in the Bible against false teachers. Even Christ spoke as such in certain circumstances. But I do not think that was the rule. Instead , it is more likely that it was the exception. I also feel unqualified to take such license as I am more prone to mess up my wittness even more. My point is , when we go negative , it comes across to the hearer as negative. I believe one can state their truths civily and with the respect befitting the subject at hand. Do you feel more at ease and secure when you are around a person full of bitterness and negative fault finding? Ask yourself, Am I advertising an inviting world by my words, where my own errors and mistakes will not one day result in a verbal stoning from my peers? Sometimes, I sense a mob mentality on FAF. It give me pause. ( I apoligize that I feel that way, I am being honest.) FAF is often an emotional romper room as one (myself included) may take the liberty of expressing random thoughts. At some point, there has to be a rising above it process and a settled peace of mind in this effort. Sometimes, when I read postings here, I am picking up on the negative vibes. I am not opposed to truths. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 761 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jeremy, I am currently trying to make my way through Early Writings. When I get done I think Ministry of Healing will be next. I do really want to cover Great Controversy as well. Each morning's 45-minute commute I study the Bible, and in the evening I study Adventism so I can share with Adventists what their own books teach. The Bible makes so much more sense! I get the distinct impression that most Seventh-day Adventists have no idea what either say! Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 19 Days since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 679 Registered: 5-2007 |
They don't, Gilbert and I am convinced that many Adventists just don't know what is Bible and what is Ellen White. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 762 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jim, I think I certainly understand and agree with what you are saying. You feel, like I do, and Diana, and others do, that there is a need to move past Ellen White and focus on the good things ahead of us. There is also the possibility of coming down so hard on Ellen White that we destroy our witness. Have I done a good job of repeating back what I think you are saying? Diana, for example has pointed out that she would prefer to dwell on the richness of God's love for us, and the joy of being a Christian. That thought resonates deeply with me as well. I feel a strong need for greater substance in the area that I would call "Life Beyond Adventism". Speaking for myself, I think that a big challenge at the present time is that all of the forum threads here go into one common "bucket". A reader will most likely read all the threads just to see what they are about. With that concern in mind, I have tried to prefix all of my threads with one of three labels, "Exposing Adventism", "Transitioning", and "Christian Walk". These are just categories that I have come up with. When I eat at a restaurant I expect the salad fixings to all be together, the deserts to be together, the drinks to all be together, and so on. If they were all mixed together it would be chaotic. Suppose that I am not interested in a salad. I've already had enough of that, and now my mind is on enjoying some desert. If I go to the desert bar, and find potato salad, grated cheese, tomatoes, deviled eggs, etc in among the deserts, that is not going to be what I was wanting. This site is unique in that it provides a forum to create a sense of community. Reference sites such as ellenwhite.org, truthandfables.com, adventist.org and whiteestate.org don't provide for that. This forum picks up discussion in all of the three areas I listed above. Each of us here comes here for a particular reason. Some of us have had enough "Exposing Adventism". Perhaps, we are already totally convinced, and are ready for "Transitioning". Maybe we are "Transitioning", and we have family members for whom we need quick, pointed "Exposing Adventism" answers -- comprehensive and concentrated. Most posts to this area of interest will probably include more than what was asked for, simply because it is assumed that for everyone that asks a question, 100 others are (or will) be lurking as well with their own related unspoken questions. This, of course, encourages some repetition of posted reference material to make it easier to find in a topical search. Or perhaps we are "stuffed" on all the "Exposing Adventism" that we will need for a long time, and want to share with others the joys of our "Christian Walk". We have completed the "transitioning" process, and consider ourselves to be a forward-looking Christian with the unique heritage of a Former Adventist. I have been using these title prefixes to alert prospective participants as to what they might find. Hopefully that will help create less of a surprise. The "Exposing Adventism" type of threads will, by their very nature, be the most forthright and blunt. As "Former Adventists", many of us will present the unvarnished truth as we see it. Do we on occasions overreact? Possibly. We all earnestly pray for the day when the denomination we implicitly trusted sets aside its continuing deception, and embraces the Bible, and the Bible only. It is in that spirit that we may be view as being aggressive in trying to jar Seventh-day Adventist Leadership out of their Laodician stupor. Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 19 Days since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 174 Registered: 5-2007  |
Well, this thread seems to have generated a lot of responses while I was away at work today. In my last post, just this morning, I was trying to make a certain point which seems to have been lost as things developed in the interim. First, let me say I agree with all of you that point out the falseness and absurdity of the larger portion of what Ellen White has to say on far to many topics that she had no business commenting on. She expressed mid-ninetieth century concepts that have changed or been dropped through the course of time. This, in itself, proves she was only parroting the current wisdom of the day. She was a false prophet and we should flee from her. End of story! Now, my point: It is not honest on our part to miss-quote another person, no matter how wrong that person may be. When we do so, we only harm our own credibility. Stick to the facts. When I went to the source, I found that the so called quote was miss-stated. As I scanned down all the posts that followed, I didn't see where anyone picked up on that point. Truth, in all its forms, must be our only tool when dealing with falsehood. Phil | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 765 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi Phil, Probably my post got lost in the plethora of other posts. I did try to respond directly to your concern in my post at http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/6105.html?1189467112#POST81630 Since I provided the quote at the top, I would presume that you are refurring to that. I did not intend to misrepresent what she wrote. That would be counter-productive. It seemed to me at least that what she wrote, as I point out in my responding post, was so shrouded in other content that it obscured the unique contribution of the statement I focused on. This is a pattern common to much of her material. She will embellish an original thought in so much verbosity that it takes an literary archiologist to dig that thought out so that it can see the light of day. When we peel away all the verbosity, I don't think the statement I quoted looses its luster. As pointed out in my response to your post, it makes as much sense as many of her other statements. Your friend, Gilbert |
