| Author | Message | ||
| Markmartin Registered user Username: Markmartin Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2007 |
A recent post referred readers to a website that catagorized Calvary Chapel's teaching as "aberrant theology." As I read the polemic, I found it filled with innuendo and fear mongering. It is tabloid theology. It is always important, not only to quote sources, but to understand context and intent. Calvary Chapels are known for Bible teaching that equips believers to grow in grace and walk in the Spirit. The ministry philosophy of Calvary Chapel is balance in all areas. The website states that Calvary's emphasis is on speaking in tongues and charismatic gifts. This is absolutely not the case. Boy, I've learned that not everything I read on the internet can be trusted and that we should be careful to research our sources. Calvary Chapel is not a denomination, but a fellowship of like-minded congregations. I would suggest that before one races to condemn a movement that has seen millions of lives changed, that one attend a Calvary or speak to a Calvary pastor. Calvary's are just a "weak thing," and a "foolish thing," 1 Cor. 1:27) that God uses to show that no one can boast, except in the Lord! Hope this helps, the Lord bless, Pastor Mark | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 476 Registered: 8-2006 |
Good morning, Pastor Mark! I will second what you say, as I attended Calvary Chapel of Spokane for almost 4 years. Pastor Ken is an awesome teacher and it was there I became grounded in the truths of the gospel. I had so much un-learning and learning to do! I believe God placed me there when I left Adventism because of the solid biblical teaching there. I was a faithful attendee every Saturday evening, and ALWAYS stayed for the afterglow service. I never heard anyone speak in tongues. There were hands raised (including mine!). Calvary Chapel has a book called Calvary Chapel distinctives. In our recent move, my husband, who has been a Baptist his entire life (and held many positions of leadership, including teaching the bible), picked up my book to read through when he was packing the bookcases. He mentioned to me how much he agreed with the philosophy of Calvary Chapel and that he wanted to find one in our new area. My husband felt as though Calvary Chapel used a balanced approach to the Scriptures, which he strongly believes is the best way. We had visited a couple of CC when we lived in Asheville, but ended up at the PCA church there. I was in a small group there, and the blessings of being with women who love God and who believe His word is indescribable to one who had come out of SDA. Of all the things I miss about leaving Spokane, my friends and the beauty there, the greatest thing I miss is leaving the fellowship and the community of Calvary Chapel! After being at Calvary Chapel, my main desire in a church (after the Holy Spirit) is expository teaching as I had there. By the way, I don't think I've told you how happy I am you've joined us! Susan | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1024 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi Pastor Mark, This doesn't really relate to Adventism, but I had a question about Calvary Chapel. I have some very good friends who came from CC's, and I don't want this to sound bad, but I am curious: How is Calvary Chapel not a denomination? All of my friends and everyone I've heard speak from CCs insist that it is not a denomination, but the way it is grouped together and led by Chuck Smith seems to fit the category of a "denomination" (not that this is necessarily a bad thing, mind you). It seems as if it is one of CC's prouder points that it remain with the title of being "non-denominational". When I've heard my good friends from CC talk of the church, there is much affection and love for Calvary Chapels, and it is the first type of church they seek out. It sounds very much like the way that Baptists speak about Baptist churches, the way Presbyterians speak about their churches, the way Reformed speak about churches with their theology, etc. I'm curious to hear your perspective on this as a CC pastor. Blessings in Christ, Ramone P.S. Richard, if this doesn't fit the topic of the main discussion area (I think it may not), please feel free to move it to the Member's area. | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 333 Registered: 11-2005 |
Pastor Mark, I also haven't had a chance to tell you how happy I am you have joined us! Your posts have been very helpful for me. So have your recorded sermon messages (since FAF weekend, I recieved the one on Hell from your church and have been wanting to go through your sermon series on Revelation). The way you "teach" is so clear to me, and it's been a blessing for me. Grace | ||
| Cloudy Registered user Username: Cloudy Post Number: 44 Registered: 7-2007 |
When I lived in California several years ago I often attended Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa on Sat. and Wed. nights. The music was wonderful. Chuck Smith always taught from the Bible verse by verse.I am much more comfortable with preaching which holds up the Bible such as Chuck Smith's, than I am with preachers such as Bill Hybels. The article mentioned seems to imply that even if you regularly attend A CC church and never see anyone speaking in tongues, you should be aware that it is not condemned by CC, and may be practiced in private services, which makes Calvary Chapel "moderately charismatic". I would not agree with that characterization, and I would agree with Pastor Mark's suggestion to visit a Calvary Chapel or speak to a Calvary pastor and come to your own conclusion. | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 477 Registered: 8-2006 |
Tongue speaking is NOT condemned in CC churches, as long as you follow the biblical order in the use of the gift, such as having an interpreter. I think this qualifies them as believing all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still operational today, not cessationists. Of course, the issue of what constitutes tongue-speaking is debatable among Christians, and evidently the author of the web site believes differently. However CC views them, they put conditions on using them in services. That is why I believe, and my husband said, that CC holds a balanced view of things. Of course, I would defer to Pastor Mark as he likely knows much more than me! (Message edited by SusanS on September 05, 2007) | ||
| Cloudy Registered user Username: Cloudy Post Number: 45 Registered: 7-2007 |
Susan, What I was trying to say was that if you attend a CC church, you may never see anyone speaking in tongues (I did not either) but tongue-speaking is not condemned by CC and may be practiced in private services (which is to say not the main service but in the church). I did understand that was the case at CCCM, but I did not attend these alternate services, so I do not know if they were like the after glow services you attended. I do not agree with the article's characterization of this as "moderately charismatic". I do think that characterization is intended to create an aversion in the minds of those who would be hesitant to attend a "charismatic" service, an aversion which SDAs and some formers might have. I did not find CCCM to have any thing which would make even a charismatic-averse person uncomfortable in music or service, and would have been comfortable inviting an SDA, Christian, or nonchristian friend to attend with me (and did). | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 478 Registered: 8-2006 |
Cloudy, I agree completely. Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant. You are so correct in saying that nothing in their services would be cause for anyone to be uncomfortable. I invited many of my friends to attend church with me and all of them felt comfortable being there. Susan | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 771 Registered: 7-2000 |
Pastor Mark, what you say is so true! You can find stuff on the Internet that is negative about ANY Christian or Christian group....Billy Graham? ohhh gotta watch out for that guy.....Promise Keepers?....ohhhh, they are a tool of the devil....Youth With a Mission?....ohhhh, those guys are really dangerous.....Wycliffe Bible Translators.....watch out man, they aren't giving the people the King James Version The list goes on and on, it is really shameful, isn't it! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6727 Registered: 12-2003  |
Thank you for your explanation, Pastor Mark. We visited the CC church in Redlands shortly after we left Adventism, and I would never have known that anyone considered them "mildly charismatic". What did impress me was the excellent worship band and the expository preaching. We didn't "land" in a CC, but I know that many people have attended CCs after leaving Adventism and have thereby become grounded in Scripture—the one thing above all others that I believe all exiting Adventists need. I agree with all of you who have thanked Mark for his teaching...you are an excellent teacher, Pastor Mark. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1253 Registered: 4-2000  |
The bottom line, as verified by this thread, is that Calvary Chapels sanction the extrabiblical revelations of tongues-speaking. It is condoning, not condemning, ecstatic speech. The truth needs to be made known. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1028 Registered: 10-2002 |
Brother Dennis, the bottom line is that Calvary Chapel is trying to be as Biblical as possible in its services. Beyond that, Calvary Chapel has apparently chosen to refrain from policing its members' private prayer lives. The truth does need to be made known, and indeed the truth --the Gospel-- is being made known at Calvary Chapels. Debatable points should never be used as a basis for condemning a congregation, particularly when their major emphasis is preaching the Gospel. If we blast them on debatable points and overlook their intense devotion to the Gospel, aren't we in danger of missing "the truth" ourselves? Aren't we straining at gnats but swallowing a camel with an attitude? This is how the unity of the Spirit is broken, when we take our eyes off of the Gospel and magnify smaller debatable points, and then ream each other for not conforming to our position on those points. Dennis, I want to speak respectfully to you because you are my elder and I love you in the Lord. Yet I want to gently urge you to re-focus on the Gospel and not let contentious points usurp the name "truth" away from the grace of Jesus Christ. Bless you in Jesus, brother Dennis. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1425 Registered: 9-2006  |
I get a kick out of terms used by folk on this forum, I dearly love every one of you and I know you exit Adventism into just about all denominations and beliefs, from Baptist, Methodist to God knows what. And then you got a Pentecostal “Never been” like me who for reasons only God knows how I ever wound up here mixed into the fray. Or for that matter how or why I have any business with Adventist period, ex or not. Now if that ain’t a conglomerated bunch I don’t know what is.  I think a whole new bunch of terms have been invented on this forum. The people on here, coupled with the Adventist, exasperate me, make me laugh, sometimes make me down right angry and disgusted, make me cry and make me think deeper than any one people I have ever been affiliated with, cause me to ask myself questions, get rid of my preconceived notions and cause me to look very carefully at the word of God and search for answers and truth from the Word of God, to cause me to look more deeply into theology more than any thing previously in all my 35 years of being a Christian. I think caused more growth in a short time than any of my previous 35 years as a really slow growing Christian which has lead me to believe my growth was actually stunted and God is making up for my lost time. This along with a look into the very heart of Adventism, and things that I have been going through in my church life, has moved me from being a really, really bad wimp for the Gospel to a fire eater. What with all that and all these new terms I don’t rightly know if I will turn out so confused I don’t know which end is up or whether I will be fit for anything at all. Going from a wimp to a fire eater may get me kicked off here or render me useless. It may get me kicked out of my own church. I might just end up a fruit mumbling “Cognitive dissonance” as they put me in the paddy wagon to haul me up to the sixth floor. Now we got this new term “mildly charismatic” I never heard before, what in the world is a “mildly charismatic”? Well, whatever it is I guess that the Calvary Chapeler’s is it. I sincerely and truly from my heart believe the same as the founder of the Calvary Chapel does in that we should follow the order and pattern of the teachings of Paul in our churches where the Gifts are allowed to operate. That there should be balance and that we should use the Bible as our basic foundation and not allow disorder or sign seeking along with other things to take pre-eminence over the Word of God in our churches. I read some of his letters and basically have to agree with him and have for a long time. Does that mean that I am “Mildly Charismatic”? The question I have this morning is how do you become “Mildly Charismatic”? 1. Was I “mildly” baptized in the Holy Ghost? 2. Just “Mildly” prey in tongues? 3. Just “Mildly” deliver a message in tongues and if there is not an interpreter present just “Mildly” prey for a “Mild” interpretation? 4. If God gives me the Gift to heal someone, do I just “Mildly” heal him, say he has both leg’s broke, just heal one of them? Sorry about that other laig feller, but we are just “Mildly Charismatic” here. Or maybe he’s got a bad cold and we just reduce it from running snot down to a throbbing headache. 5. If I come to visit Mark’s Church as I hope to someday and the Lord prompts me to bring a message in tongues to his congregation and I bring the message is he going to tell me to sit down and say that’s not the place because we are “Mildly Charismatic”? Just mildly quench the Spirit, not much, just a tad. 6. Is Calvary Chapel acceptable with you folks as long as it is “Mildly Charismatic”, you know, just as long as you don’t hear anybody speak with tongues? As for that matter, my church because our premises are the same accept for I am not sure Calvary Chapel folk allow tongues and interpretations in a Sunday Morning Worship service or not and we do, I guess Mark can answer that one. 7. Do you have a warning sign on the door “Mildly Charismatic!” or an invitation sign “safe to enter, Mildly Charismatic”? 8. Does a “Mildly Charismatic” church have some kind of Holy Ghost regulator? you know, sorta like the regulator on my compressor, gimme about 40 Lbs over here Lord. A tad a healing, no tongues and hold the Prophecy. 9. Does “Mildly Charismatic” sound safer to you folks? Sorta like the difference in passing a dark ally and walking into one? What ever one of them “Mildly charismatic’s” is I don’t know whether to stomp on it like a snake or pick it up and eat it ifen I ever run across one. Now these are just questions and observations that just sorta cropped up this morning. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 206 Registered: 7-2007 |
River, your post got me to laughing I'm told that the non-denominational church that I've been going to is a Calvary Chapel, though I don't know if it really is one or not. They have really nice music where everyone sings and praises the Lord and a few people raise their hands; but I've never seen anyone praying in tongues. I don't know what to think of praying in tongues. I'm kind of holding that in "tension" so to speak. I do know however, that the person whom the Lord used to bring me out of the SDA church, prays in tongues every day. That was very definitely a miracle - bringing me out of the SDA church - and if this person wasn't a real Christian, would the Lord have used her to get me out? | ||
| Markmartin Registered user Username: Markmartin Post Number: 26 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi River, Calvary Chapels desire to follow the Apostle Paul's guidelines in 1 Corinthians 14. He explains says that at church prophecy (speaking to people for edification, exhortation, and consolation vs.3) is more edifying to the whole body than an utterance in tongues. It's all about doing what is the most profitable for the whole church body during a worship time (vss 5-6-12) rather than what simply blesses an individual worshipper. Obviously, Paul allowed for speaking in tongues and states "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;" (vs. 18), but goes on to state his apostolic preference: "however, in the church (or Gk. 'at church') I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue." (vs. 19). That's a ratio of two thousand to one! Remember, this chapter's teaching on the manifestation of tongues is written to bring balance back to the Corinthian's worship style correcting their excesses,thus making their services less startling to unbelievers (vs. 23). The issue today is whether a church follows what Paul permits by way of concession to a church or whether a church follows Paul's own preference. While Paul permits a few utterances of tongues in public worship (with interpretation), which would have been a mega-shift in worship style and format for this church, still his own preference (as a pastor and apostle) is not to speak in tongues publicly "in the church" assembly at all. Calvary Chapel's, in this case, simply follow Paul's apostolic preference. River, another point you have discussed is the term "mildly charismatic" which you read some where. Though I do not know the origin of this label, it seem that it probably was a designation given to churches that believe in the gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit, but prefer not to promote utterances of tongues in public worship. These churches also refrain from participating in practices that are not clearly taught in the New Testament such as being "slain" in the Spirit, holy laughter, holy barking, rolling, etc.,the teachings of the "word of faith movement," and "prosperity" doctrines. Obviously these doctrines are cherished beliefs to millions of charismatic Christians, but they are certainly not accepted by all who consider themselves "charismatic." There is quite a broad spectrum within the charismatic movement. One end of the spectrum may be represented by men like Benny Hinn and T.D. Jakes, (and there are also others who claim to be modern-day apostles). The other end of the charismatic spectrum could be illustrated by men like Jack Hayford, Chuck Smith and Greg Laurie. There are also many others on this side of the spectrum who are known more for their emphasis on Bible teaching and exposition than their practice of charismatic gifts. Due to this wide spectrum and the differences of doctrine and practice, those attempting to critique the charimatic movement from the outside often find themselves confused or even repulsed. But this is not the only place within the Body of Christ that we see such a wide spectrum of belief. Let me pick on the Baptists for a minute(and I love to pick on them! Ha! Ha!) to illustrate this apart from the more highly charged charismatic issues. Among those claiming to be BAPTISTS there is a broad spectrum of belief and practice. There are: Independent Baptists. Free Will Baptists (Arminian, salvation may be lost). Legalistic Baptist churches. Reformed Baptist churches (5-point Calvinist). 3 or 4-point Baptist churches (eternal security). Some baptize by sprinkling. Most baptize by immersion. Most go to church on Sunday. Some go to church on Saturday. Some are liberal. Some are conservative. Baptists who strongly believe in congregational rule. Baptists who strongly believe in elder rule. Baptists who believe in the KJV only. Baptists who endorse modern paraphrases & translations. Some believe the gifts & manifestations of the Holy Spirit are active in the church today Some Baptists do not believe the gifts & manifestations of the Holy Spirit are active today, but ceased at the end of the first century. People love labels because it helps them save time thinking. Sometimes the labels we place on other believers are inaccurate. Perhaps we should coin a new term: "Baptistmatic!" for those who are somewhere in-between a good 'ole Baptist Church and a charismatic church. I refer to myself as a "charismatic non-charismatic." Hope this helps clarify some things, Pastor Mark | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1055 Registered: 8-2004  |
Hey Mark, the word for 'Baptistmatic' around here is "Bapticostal". There are quite a few such churches in these here parts of Kentucky. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1426 Registered: 9-2006 |
Baptistmatic, HA! Might as well add that to the larder. And Mary, Bapticostal is even better, course the more words we have at our disposel the better equipt to handle the sloush a people coming out of Adventism. The body of Christ sure has a wide spectrum to it alright. Jack Hayford, I love to listen too, I believe he is up at the Church on the way up around Seattle. You know folks, wouldn't it be nice though if we quit judging each other by tonges or the way we Baptize and stuff, what a home coming meeting we could have. The tongue speakers could speak in tongues and fence post types could sit with their hand in their pockets er we could hand cuffem at the door so they wouldn't tempted to raise there hand when us more fiery folk do. We could make an announcement before we raise our hands so the mousy folk don't think theres a hold up in progress and start hitting the floor, the Pentecostal folk wouldn't pay any attention to it, they would just think they were slain in the Spirit. Course an awful lot of folk might start yanking out their wallets and scaring the Grannies. Well, I guess I'm just dreaming, but some day we WILL have that homecoming. You know I get too looking forward when all God's children will gather home. I guess thats why I want to go to an FaF get together, just to meet the people of this wonderful conglomeration of souls. Don't take any of that I said up there too seriously Pastor Mark, I was just mostly having fun. A little bit of serious mixed with a tad of fun, with a shake of in between, that is because since I came to this website I am mildly Pentecostal, mixed with a whole lot of Baptist assurance and I have come to the disappointing conclusion that I can't turn everybody into me! Thank God for big favors! River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6738 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mark, thank you for the further clarification. And River...I'm just laughin' here, reading your vision of the homecoming of all types of Christ-followers as they meet together!! Oh, and Jack Hayford is at the Church of the Way, but I believe he's here in Southern California... Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1254 Registered: 4-2000 |
Ramone, The Gospel plus anything else is no longer the Gospel. Whether they admit or not, it is highly evident that some former Adventists actually somehow miss the extrabibical revelations of Ellen White and the "divinely-appointed" decrees of the SDA hierarchy. This unique combination makes an Adventist feel very special, comfortable, and even arrogant. Consequently, this is the reason why former Adventists are especially vulnerable to the extrabibical revelations in tongues speaking. Charismaticism effectively restores their feeling of superiority over others and gives them extrabiblical revelations at the same time. Obviously, nothing is gained by exchanging one deception for yet another. It is a common practice among charismatic churches to not exhibit tongues-speaking during their Sunday morning service (i.e., Assemblies of God, Worldwide Church of God, etc.). This practice is generally electrified on Sunday nights and other occasions. I have personally observed this by my attendance with relatives. I have very close relatives who are charismatic. I have observed charismaticism upclose in different parts of the United States as well. The intensity of their emotionalism varies from church to church. I am very familiar with their unique doctrines, ecstatic speech, and physical acrobatics. I have personally witnessed their pole climbing, knee jumping, prayer cloth techniques, moaning, clapping, shouting, loud singing, collapsing unto the floor, healing services, altar calls, etc. Visioning and speaking in tongues are closely-related as history repeatedly verifies. Another charismatic commonality with Adventism is their belief in the "latter rain" (a denial of Pentecost). However, an important fruit of the Spirit is "self-control" (see Gal. 5:23). The idea that God is revealing truth beyond Scripture, the teaching that Spirit baptism is subsequent to and separate from salvation, thus creating two classes of believers; and mysticism that is innate in charismatic teaching, which encourages people to denigrate reason, elevate feeling, and open their minds and spirits to powers they cannot understand. Trichotomy is another unbiblical teaching frequently found among charismatics. Thus, there are a variety of biblical reasons why a Christian should reject charismaticism. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 489 Registered: 8-2006 |
Dennis, Is the WWCG really charismatic? I had no idea of that. Susan |
