| Author | Message | ||
| Markmartin Registered user Username: Markmartin Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2007 |
I was just watching a message by Lloyd Grolimund an SDA pastor of one of the larger churches in Australia, preaching on "The Greatest Prophecy Ever." He is teaching the typical SDA Daniel 9 --1844 "prophecy," but it hit me as I was watching the chart he was using that he uses the wrong decree to establish the whole 1844 deal. He says the decree to "restore and rebuild Jerusalem, with it's wall" (Daniel 9:25)is 457 BC. Again I was stunned. Adventist founders got their decrees mixed up. The 457 decree was the decree to rebuild the temple under Ezra the priest. The decree Gabriel is referring to is 444-445 B.C.! This, of course does not work out to 1844. The SDA doctrine is off by 14-15 years. One more thing...I was watching this with several other people and when we saw what I'm going to describe next, our mouths fell open in shock: He took the congregation to Galatians 4:4-5 which reads: "But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights as sons." He had this text displayed on the screen. This is what he said and he appears to be reading from the Scripture, --he's actually looking at his Bible: "But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, Jesus, to redeem the world, that we might receive the full rights as sons." Notice what he left out! "To redeem THOSE UNDER LAW...." We had to replay it about half a dozen times to really believe what this man was doing! You can see it for yourself at http://www.wahroongasda.org.au/sermons.htm and is at marker 04:30. I think that the confusion of dates is very important and it's easy to research. Just google "decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" and "decree to rebuild the temple." It's amazing that the good old Adventist professors haven't "discovered" this one yet! One more thing. He emphatically states that "a day ALWAYS equals a year!" This is crucial to SDA doctrine. But this is not true. "Days" ARE meant to be taken as literal 24 hour periods in prophecy unless the Lord specifically says, "a day for a year." The proof text methods that Adventist "preachers" and "evangelists" use are extremely exegetically unsound and border on the absurd. There are two things that consistently amaze me: God's GRACE and the SDA misinformation machine! God bless you all! Pastor Mark | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 328 Registered: 11-2005 |
I no longer have my Clear Word Bible to verify this, but someone PLEASE tell me that this man is reading from a Bible that left out "to redeem those under law...", and he left it out unknowingly. With the wrong dates, and the false idea that a day ALWAYS equals a year, you can almost see the veil covering their eyes. But to deliberately leave out information from a pulpit....oh my! I can't even begin to describe the concerns I have for that. Not just for the audience (hopefully the audience is following along in their Bibles), but for the man! He has a God-given responsibility as a minister to teach "truth". And he may have different ideas of truth because of the veil, but to DELIBERATELY preach his own agenda, contrary to the Word of God?! Wow... Grace | ||
| Maggiethecat Registered user Username: Maggiethecat Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2007  |
Wow indeed, that's pretty scary stuff. Maree | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 367 Registered: 3-2005 |
Pastor Mark: That is excruciating. And the fact is that we see this blantant changing of Scripture often! The end justifies the means. My husband calls it the moving target. We never know what argument is going to be thrown at us because in a very practical way, each person has to work through the convolution on their own. It seems to us that the church has basically by lack of discipline, stated that they don't care what that process looks like as LONG AS they end up at 1844 and the Sanctuary Doctrine. My understanding is that William Miller also didn't take into account the fact that the Hebrew year was 360 days. Rather, he used the 365 day model that we use. So, if that is true, added to the problem you noted, then all of the numbers are so far off that one can hardly base any kind of supposition on them, much less dogmatic, salvational doctrine! Praying, Patria (Message edited by patriar on September 01, 2007) | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 673 Registered: 11-2005 |
Mark, you may already be aware of Frank Baston's excellent site at http://2300days.com/ where he has a lot of indepth scholarly research that really destroys the SDA logic. It is truly a treasure trove that is not found anywhere else. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 465 Registered: 8-2006 |
Wow, Pastor Mark. Thanks for sharing that information. I just watched the portion. I suppose the person putting up the text missed the fact that it didn't correspond to what the pastor said. I don't have my Clear Word unpacked so I can't check it either, but I found it amazing that he would be reading and change the Scripture as he was looking at it! Also, as far as the chronology goes, someone in another thread hypothesized that it doesn't matter what you use or how you arrive at the date, you MUST get to 1844! If you do, it's ok, because it supports all the EGW doctrines that grow out of it and make SDA's the "remnant people". Amazing. Sad. Susan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4235 Registered: 3-2004  |
Aren't all of you so happy and glad we are not there any more. That is all the more reason to pray for adventists. Thanks Pastor Mark. Diana | ||
| Markmartin Registered user Username: Markmartin Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi Gang! No, Lloyd Grolimund is not quoting the "Clear Word." The CW [R & H, 1994 ed.) mistranslates verse 5 this way: "...He came to redeem everyone who felt condemned by the law...". In other words, even the CW had to keep the law in the picture. Lloyd Grolimund did not....interesting. God bless you all today! Pastor Mark | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 368 Registered: 3-2005 |
Diana: Yes! And I agree! Prayer is our strongest weapon! Patria | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6702 Registered: 12-2003  |
Oh, my goodness...I echo Grace: my concern for a pastor to deliberately alter Scripture from the pulpit is unconscionable. The Clear Word version is closer, but even inserting "those who felt condemned by the law" changes the meaning. I read that to mean that those with the enlightenment necessary to understand how to really embrace the law no longer need to feel condemned by it. Amazing, Pastor Mark! Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 371 Registered: 3-2005 |
Pastor Mark: Excuse me! I misunderstood what you were saying. I just watched the video and even knowing what you reported, I STILL had to watch it 3 times to believe it. I kept hoping it would end differently. uggghhh. Oh may Jesus have mercy. Patria | ||
| Markmartin Registered user Username: Markmartin Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2007 |
Patria, Sorry if I wasn't clear, --it was an early post. Have a great Sunday! Pastor Mark | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 373 Registered: 3-2005 |
 Now THAT is incredibly generous! Your post was perfectly clear. God bless you Pastor Mark. Patria | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 317 Registered: 7-2005  |
Here's a question I've been pondering: Is there any Biblical precedent for a fulfillment of any prophecy taking place on a specific date? I don't recall ever reading that any prophecy in the Bible predicted a specific date on which it would be fulfilled. Does anyone know of one? Honestwitness | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 813 Registered: 7-2004  |
You're right, HW - good point! I can't think of any either. There seemed to be general time frames, but certainly no exact date. And couple that with was there ever a prophecy made that was to be fulfilled in heaven where no common person could see or know it had happened? | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 376 Registered: 3-2005 |
Honestwitness: That is a great point and someone correct me if this is wrong, but it is my understanding that prophecy was never intended primarily for the purpose of "telling the future". Patria | ||
| Markmartin Registered user Username: Markmartin Post Number: 20 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi Honestwitness, Actually, there is a time prophecy that had to be fulfilled on the exact date. It is the prophecy concerning the exact day that Messiah would present Himself to Israel. (Significantly, this happens to be the very prophecy that the SDAs mess up so terribly.) The prophecy is found in Daniel 9:24-25. When the days are calculated (as actual days, --not years) They add up to 173,880 days. So the prophecy is saying that 173,880 days after a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (it's walls are specified, thus eliminating confusion concerning decrees) Messiah the Prince will be presented to Israel. Did anything happen 173,880 days later? Look at Luke 19:28-43: "When He had said this, He went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. 29 And it came to pass, when He drew near to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mountain called Olivet, that He sent two of His disciples, 30 saying, "Go into the village opposite you, where as you enter you will find a colt tied, on which no one has ever sat. Loose it and bring it here. 31 And if anyone asks you, 'Why are you loosing it?' thus you shall say to him, 'Because the Lord has need of it.'" 32 So those who were sent went their way and found it just as He had said to them. 33 But as they were loosing the colt, the owners of it said to them, "Why are you loosing the colt?" 34 And they said, "The Lord has need of him." 35 Then they brought him to Jesus. And they threw their own clothes on the colt, and they set Jesus on him. 36 And as He went, many spread their clothes on the road. 37 Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen, 38 saying: "'Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the LORD!' Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!" 39 And some of the Pharisees called to Him from the crowd, "Teacher, rebuke Your disciples." 40 But He answered and said to them, "I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out." 41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day , the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes." Jesus actually rode into Jerusalem on the 173,880th day, thus presenting Himself as Israel's Messiah on the exact day Daniel had prophesied! Note, in verse 42, Jesus draws attention to "...this your day,...". Now, that's something to get excited about! 1844 move over! If you would like more information on this and the calculations which are based on the Jewish calendars, ect., see Sir Robert Andersons book, "The Coming Prince." We might also want to think of Passover - Crucifixion, First Fruits - Resurrection Sunday, and Pentecost Sunday. Jesus had to fulfill these feasts on the actual days. This is so exciting, --there is such a treasure to be mined from God's Word! I love it! The Lord bless, Pastor Mark (Message edited by admin on September 03, 2007) | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 318 Registered: 7-2005 |
Thank you, Pastor Mark! These facts are amazing. Raven, your point is well taken. I have always felt this way about Oct 22, 1844. You would have to have "secret knowledge" to know that Jesus moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in heaven. Secret knowledge is the stuff of which cults are made. Honestwitness | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6713 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pastor Mark, that is fascinating. Thank you--that really is overwhelming: Jesus entered Jerusalem exactly when the "fullness of time" came. It reminds me of 1 Timothy 2:5-6: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time." Amazing. Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 690 Registered: 11-2005 |
Mark, here is the logic for your example http://letsrollforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=136461&highlight= That is fascinating! Gilbert Jorgensen |
