| Author | Message | ||
| Maggiethecat Registered user Username: Maggiethecat Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2007  |
Hi there, I'm sure there's probably a topic about this already but I've searched and can't find anything, can someone please point me in the right direction? In my time in the SDA church I sat through a few services where a retired pastor had a big piece of linen and hung it up across the front of the church with 'dates and proof' from the bible that the Roman Catholic Church is indeed the Beast of Revelation. There was always heaps in Sabbath School about this too. It was fairly convincing at the time and I realise now that it's not true but I was just looking for the logical explanation of the 'proof' that SDAs have? They seem so sure that they are right about it. Hope I'm making sense. Also, my good friend in the SDA church insists that Sunday Law is in the Bible but that's not true is it? Thank you and God bless. Maree | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 133 Registered: 4-2007 |
Hi Maree, The system of proof texts and dates used by the SDA church to 'prove' that the Catholic Church is the beast are based on bad dates and bad prooftexting, as is much of their distinctive theology. So there is no explicit 'Sunday Law' proof in the Bible. The prophecy time lines are very badly flawed. There are other threads listing many of those errors. That said, many evangelicals do believe the Catholic Church is an apostate church. There are many websites usually posted to these threads supporting that view. Most though would at least agree that the roots of the Catholic Church are wholly Christian and share orthodox views of basic Christian doctrines such as the Trinity and Jesus's divinity, unlike cults like Adventists and Mormons who sprang up out of movements embracing heretical ideas. I am a practicing Roman Catholic and obviously do not share the view that we are apostate or unbiblical. While there are definitely dark pages in our long and rich history, we are human beings, who can and do sin. What I see is that in spite of our failings, we are still here and still witnessing to the Truth that is Jesus. As far as the bible, I do believe it is the Word of God and can give a scriptural answer for why I believe as I do. The differences between us are not that we do not believe the Bible, but that we interpret it and use it differently. I find personally, that former Adventists often continue to view the Catholic Church with the same antipathy they did as Adventists. When I left the SDA church and became Catholic, I really felt like I was truly weird and the only person to have done so! I will have been Catholic 26 years in December of this year. There is now a sizable number of former Adventists who are Catholic. A website this past year was established trying to help us connect. http://www.diesdomini.com/journeys.html Unfortunately, there is no board or forum especially for us, YET, anyway (working on that). I really appreciate the love and friendship offered to me here. Non-former SDA just cannot really relate to the issues former SDAs often have to deal with. So my answer to your question of course is NO! of course not!  Some of my good friends here might disagree. Loving each other in spite of our differences to me is one mark of true Christianity. God Bless, MarysRoses | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 674 Registered: 11-2005 |
MaryRoses, I am doing a comparison on a number of texts from ESV, NIV and KJV, and comparing them with the corrupt SDA Clear Word Bible. I would like to also show that the bible the Roman Catholics generally use is basically the same as the ESV, NIV and KJV, while the Seventh-day Adventists are the ones who are rewriting God's holy Word. Which version do most Roman Catholics use, and is there a website that has it online? I also wonder which version the Greek Orthodox use the most? The Clear Word is so corrupt that it is disgusting! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 573 Registered: 7-2000 |
Gilbert, the Catholics often use 'The Jerusalem Bible', mine was printed by Doubleday and has cross-references along with study notes. This Bible was given to me by an elderly SDA pastor who was cleaning out his library! I find the study notes to be very good and the translation to be quite accurate. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 677 Registered: 11-2005 |
Loneviking, Thankyou for that insight. I notice the Wikipedia speaks highly of it from a Catholic viewpoint. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Bible Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 678 Registered: 11-2005 |
So could I use the New Jerusalem Bible at http://www.catholic.org/bible/ for comparisons? My point will be to show that the Catholic translation is very close to those favoured by Seventh-day Adventists, while the SDA Clear Word Bible is what is really the perversion of God's Holy Word. In other words, while the Seventh-day Adventists are blaming the Roman Catholics for everything evil including rewriting the Bible, I intend to show that it is actually the Seventh-day Adventists that are rewriting the Bible. Here is a good example. First the New Jerusalem Bible Then the SDA Clear Word Bible
Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 574 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hmmm, might be tough for two reasons. The first is that the Clear Word Bible has never (as far as I know) been acknowledged as an 'official' Bible. The Clear Word Bible was written for devotional purposes. You would do better comparing the Clear Word to the New World translation! The second reason is that these two Bibles are different types of translations. The Jerusalem bible is a 'word for word' translation. The Clear Word bible is waaaaay over on the far side of the group of translations known as 'dynamic equivelents'. So, it's a bit like comparing apples and oranges. Take some time and read through the Jerusalem bible. I think you will be surprised at how readable it is! | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 679 Registered: 11-2005 |
I dont think the SDA Church will ever call it the "official" Bible. That is not their style. They do everything underhanded. To me, it is official enough when the spend a full page advertising it in the official adult Sabbath School quarterly! I don't know of another version they advertise like that. Clearly they support it. They also print it, and of course, sell it in their ABC stores. If they found fault with it they would certainly not endorse it in the adult quarterly with a full page ad! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1249 Registered: 4-2000  |
Gilbert, The New American Version (NAV) is also very popular in Catholic circles today. For a comprehensive understanding of Catholicism and Church history, check out Richard Bennett's excellent website: www.bereanbeacon.org . Dennis Fischer | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 134 Registered: 4-2007 |
For study, we often use the RSV-CE (Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition). For public reading the most common edition would be the New American Bible. Its free online at http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/ The Jerusalem bible is a Catholic edition but it is not the best available, being an older translation that does not benefit from more recent scholarship. For information about Catholicism from a Catholic perspective www.catholic.com is good. MarysRoses | ||
| Dale Registered user Username: Dale Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2007  |
Marysroses, when I was in Costco some time ago, I had a few minutes to kill and was looking at the books. I noted "Jesus of Nazareth". Looking a little closer I found it was written by the Pope. I purchased it and have read it. He is an excellent scholar who has read Catholic, Protestant and Jewish scholars. I found the book had many insights. I do not agree with some parts, for example, the Eucharist and other unique Catholic teachings, but for the most part, I found it good for the mature, discerning reader. It is not for everyone however. Compared to Early Writings, however, it would take this book! | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 138 Registered: 4-2007 |
Hi Dale, Same as I would take any decent evangelical publication over EGW books! On the rare occasions I can really talk to my SDA mom about religion, I find myself drawing from what I have in common with evangelicals in trying to reach her. It would certainly be unwise to waste those rare opportunities with anything that would simply alienate her. She was a Baptist for 30 years before becoming Adventist. If I can reach her with that, I will. God Bless, MarysRoses | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 681 Registered: 11-2005 |
Maryroses, it is interesting how we each come with such narrow experiences. In that regard, I feel quite handicapped. My mother tells me that I am a sixth generation seventh-day Adventist tracing back to William Farnsworth -- for what that is worth. For 53 years -- up until two years ago I was a Seventh-day Adventist. Since then I have been fellowshipping with a great Baptist congregation. I can't even fathom why anyone who has been a Baptist all their life would even consider becoming a Seventh-day Adventist. From a mainstream Christian perspective what is it about Seventh-day Adventism that a non-Adventist would even find appealing? Does that sound like a reasonable question to ask? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 139 Registered: 4-2007 |
We had relatives that were SDA. Our experiences (at least from my perspective but I was a child) in Baptist Churches were not very positive. Unfortunately, around here at that time (40 years ago) they tended to be small and tended to split frequently. I was six when I was saved and baptized in a baptist church. That made me a voting member. A valuable commodity when there were contentious issues to vote on at business meetings. I once clearly remember when I was in grade school, being marched into a business meeting with all my equally young cousins. We had been instructed how to vote by my grandmother. The preacher that she liked was being threatened with being voted out. The vote was close but we 'won', and afterwards my grandfather bought us icecream. I never really knew all the details of why some wanted the pastor to leave, only that those extra votes made a difference that day. Even at that time, my father did not attend church except for mother's day and funerals. He had ceased to attend regularly after a particularly nasty split. Several times we moved our membership to various baptist churches in town to follow a particular pastor or as a result of some disagreement. In my early teens the youth sunday school leader was emotionally and spiritually abusive (of course I only recognized this MUCH later) and had some very odd ideas about doctrine. That led to another division. Having been duped by him I wasn't wanting to stay at my grandmother's church. My mother stopped attending anywhere. The Adventist Church seemed like a haven of stability. When we joined the SDA church, details of doctrines I later found very problematic were glossed over and not explained well. I willingly joined, based on my affection for my SDA uncle and my understanding of SDA doctrine, which I later realized was very incomplete. I can't answer for my mother, but she joined after attending one of the very first Revelation Seminars. She had not been attending anywhere regularly after the problems at the baptist church. As I remember she was attracted by the teachings on natural healing. The presentation was slick and seemed to support ideas like sabbath keeping as being biblical. Over time, I became disillusioned with SDA doctrine while she seemed to get drawn in deeper. Also, many of my uncle's children and grandchildren are grown now and are deeply involved in the SDA church, another attraction for her to stay SDA. Our non-SDA family is much more scattered and seldom visited. In spite of this, I have a lot of respect for the Baptists. I did visit and consider joining a Baptist church after I left Adventism. For me, it would have been a great improvement over Adventism but still felt incomplete. I don't expect you guys on this forum to understand, but I went back to the only church were I had been happy and felt safe as a child- The Catholic parish where I had attended grade school. That is still where I currently attend with my own family. So in answer to the question of appeal: Stability - at least an appearance of it, pastors aren't voted in and out by the congregation. Community - more supportive and social than the baptist churches we had attended. People here speak of the SDA bubble. Its true, once we joined our entire social life revolved around the SDA church and all our friends were there. All the diet rules and sabbath rules tend to give you an identity and solidarity with your SDA friends. My mother still finds all her friendships and social network in the SDA community. MarysRoses | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 474 Registered: 8-2006 |
MarysRoses, Your experience growing up in the Baptist church parallels mine and the reasons for being attracted to SDA as well. I have lots of friends who are Baptist, and my husband has been a leader in the Baptist church, but I have been hesitant to return. Thankfully my husband has been open to other denominations and we will be checking out the Calvary Chapel here in Greenville. Susan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1250 Registered: 4-2000 |
Susan, Here is an useful link to better understand the Calvary Chapel network of churches: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/calvary/chapel.htm . Dennis Fischer | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 706 Registered: 4-2006  |
Dear brothers and sisters, grace and peace be with you. Here is a pretty good website equipping Christians with witnessing tools to reach out to people lost in catholicism: http://www.eternal-productions.org/catholicism.html In His grace, Martin | ||
| Treasurehntr Registered user Username: Treasurehntr Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2007 |
What is the proper Ex SDA view of the Catholic faith? The Adventist time prophecies are as full of holes as swiss cheese. Knowing that, should'nt our idea of the Catholic religion change? The notion that the Catholic believer cannot defend his/her faith is pure nonsense. I am in debt to a Catholic friend who helped lead me out of Adventism. This friend began a group in St. Louis called "Supporters of Archbishop Burke" . This friend is a fine Christian man and helped in so many ways to guide me out of cognitive dissonance. Though I have no intention of becoming Catholic. My heart tells me that God has his hand there in more ways than Adventism. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1051 Registered: 8-2004  |
This is one of the cool things about being a former: There is no 'proper view' of pretty much anything. We are free in Christ to investigate, cogitate, and understand things for ourselves. This is a great liberty . . . and a great responsibility. There being no 'proper view' does not mean there is no truth, or that everything is just as you decide to think it is. It does mean there's no earthly central authority that decides what is proper or not. (I stand ready to be corrected on this, but this is what I've found so far) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4250 Registered: 3-2004  |
What I have found so amazing is that as each former comes out of adventism because they have learned the real gospel, the gospel is what each of us have learned-Jesus Christ is the gospel. Only through Jesus Christ do each of us have salvation. We are then free to read and explore and ask questions about what we read. and as Helovesme2 said, along with it comes a great responsibility. I love the freedom Christ gives us and He helps us with the responsibility. He is always so awesome. Diana |
