| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4175 Registered: 3-2004  |
God gave me the peace that only He can give when I was ready to give up the anger and abuse I had suffered. When I do not give that up it is giving "rent free space in my head" to something that does not know it has it. And I are the one to suffer. I am so glad I had my 12 step program. It took out the cobwebs of adventism and I have had a fairly peaceful transition. I praise God for that. Give it all to God. He knows what to do with it. He is always so awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6623 Registered: 12-2003  |
Susans, I understand. You know, it is necessary to feel the anger--that means that you are actually seeing and believing how bad Adventism really is. Anger is one of the emotions God gave us to inform us of injustice. He asks us to give up our "right" to get even, however--and trust Him to mete out justice, which He has promised to do. It doesn't work to "give it up" before you actually feel it, though, or you're lingering in denial with your feelings stuffed deep inside. But once you know, once you really feel the pain and anger and grief for all the abuse and deception and integenerational darkness that has shaped your life, you can trust Jesus with it, as Diana said. Forgiveness does not mean "forgive and forget", as so many say. It means to give up your right to get even and let Jesus carry that load. It's too big for you; it would kill you. But it does mean to remember so you can protect you and your loved ones from future abuse. You can tell Jesus that you're angry, and ask Him to help you trust Him with your past and with all the people who knowingly or unknowingly wronged you. Ask Him to be all you need. Ask Him to keep you grounded in truth and reality and to redeem the past and not waste it. And Thank Him for what He is doing in your life. Thank Him for revealing the truth about Him as well as the truth about Adventism to you. Ask Him to be your anchor and to hold you in His love. He is faithful, Susans--and your anger is normal. It is a necessary passage but not the destination. Your destination is resolution in Christ. He Is Faithful! Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1321 Registered: 9-2006  |
Susan wrote : It's statements like this that lead me to believe that EGW was not innocently deceived as a result of her head injury. Why do we want to put it off on Ellen’s head injury, she obviously had the ability to read and reason, she knew how to produce revenue, she was widely traveled, she had children and she wrote to an old age. By putting it off onto brain damage aren’t we declaring her innocence? In order to use the word deceived to justify innocence, one would have to say that there was no other choice. So lets look at the word “deceived” as it is used and comprehended on this net. I will use myself as an example, that way I won’t possibly step on toes and sore spots, none accept my own at least. I have been saying my Adventist friends are deceived; they are born and raised into it. Somehow softening the blow, that way I can excuse them, feel sorry for them, count them innocent. But just what is this word we are dealing out so often on here? How many times would I find the word going back just a few post? 10, 20? All of a sudden I realized that I needed to look at this a little deeper perhaps. To start with, lets get rid of the age of accountability question that is sure to muddy the waters and just consider those who have reached the age of accountability and reason. Synonyms: These verbs mean to lead another into error, danger, or a disadvantageous position by underhand means. Deceive involves the deliberate misrepresentation of the truth: "We are inclined to believe those whom we do not know, because they have never deceived us" I have to ask this question. At what time does an Adventist over the age of accountability not possess a Bible? At what time did he/she not have the ability to read and reason? Does the Adventist over the age of accountability have other choices to make, if not, who is the enforcer that determines this? These are questions I am going to continue to struggle with. Surely Eve had two choices, to believe God or be deceived by Satan. If my neighbor comes to me with the statement of someone’s guilt, I have two choices, I can wait and look for evidence of innocence or guilt or I can believe it without the weight of evidence. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1322 Registered: 9-2006 |
I have to ask another question, where does deception originate? River | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 634 Registered: 11-2005 |
So was Ellen deceived when she told others that their photographs were "idols", or was she deceived when she herself gushed to her husband James about the possibility of him spending $500 in the currency of that day for one negative of himself? According to http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ $500 in 1876 would be worth $8861.80 today! See also http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw51.htm And I supposed she considered these to be normal accomodations, similar to the lifestyle of Bible prophets?
See also http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw25.htm Shall we just let poor Ellen off the hook, and say that she was deceived? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1324 Registered: 9-2006 |
My question is, does being deceived let anyone off the hook? As I said before, a conclusion of innocence would indicate they have no other choice. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6629 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree. Deception does not render the deceived innocent. Besides, deception is not inevitable. Jesus even said that at the end of the age there would be a deception so great that, if it were possible, would deceive the very elect. We are obligated to stand humbly before God and ask Him to hold us in truth and protect us from deception. He is stronger than deception, and He alone protects our hearts and minds. We are not innocent when we are deceived. And Gilbert, great point about Ellen... Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 193 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen, Is that fair. Not innocent if decieved? This sounds like a set up to condemn the victim. Sometimes I detect a prosecuting spirit on FAF. Conspiracy theories and them devious SDA's. Yet, I never met a Rank and File SDA that thought or acted that way (that I knew of). These folks attempt to live their convictions. I am not willing to persecute anyones beliefs. I may not agree with their conclusions, but I try hard not to villify sincere people. I assume we speak of the SDA system and the leaders.The teachers and scholars and so on when we make accountable statements. But the fact is , it is a belief system and I continously see plenty of debateable positions on both sides of many doctrines. Thus , religon and beliefs remain subjective and interpretative. As far as EGW. Points of error. Let the records speak. But also, fairness requires both sides to state their truths as they know it. I have no problem with stating ones beliefs and explainations. But I think that the tendancy to villify SDA,s is unworthy of the calling as a Christian. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 194 Registered: 5-2007 |
Deception: The very concept of it is how FAF was born. Deception is inevitable, because it happens to sincere people. The question is , can it be overcome, can it be salvaged, does God's mercy account for sincere mistakes. I think so. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4180 Registered: 3-2004 |
"I have no problem with stating ones beliefs and explainations. But I think that the tendancy to villify SDA,s is unworthy of the calling as a Christian." Like you Jim, I have my differences with adventism, but I am not going to villify they. I would not be acting as a Christ follower if I did. And, like you, I believe God's mercy accounts for sincere mistakes. He is such a awesome God. Diana | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 438 Registered: 8-2006 |
Eve was deceived by the serpent, as I recall reading in the bible. Did that make her innocent? The issue I had and has is that, as Gilbert wrote, Mrs. White proclaimed things to be sinful, yet engaged in the very same behaviours. I don't see any record of her admitting to struggling with eating unclean meats, or of spending money wastefully when she condemned even the expense of a simple gold wedding ring by others. All I see is a person who claimed to be "more than a messenger", and who claimed to receive direct visions from God, and then hid her actions that were in direct conflict with what she said was truth! I respect all who attempt to follow their convictions, but I just don't see that attempt in EGW. What I DO see is profiting from her "visions" and "testimonies" and saying if you don't agree and follow them, it's because you are listening to Satan. Colleen and Diana, thanks for your kind words. I was not in a good place last night, with all that has been going on. I have given it to Jesus, and I don't want to get even. God will take care of it. I WILL however, tell everyone I know of the heresy of Adventism. And River, I most certainly do NOT put everything off to her head injury. As you stated, she did have "the ability to read and reason, she knew how to produce revenue, she was widely traveled, she had children and she wrote to an old age". Susan | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 167 Registered: 7-2007 |
I'm sure glad God brought me out of deception!!! | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 439 Registered: 8-2006 |
I do want to add that I'm not dogmatic in my belief about EGW. If I am wrong, someone please show me where I am wrong and I will freely and honestly change my beliefs about her! Susan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6635 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, I posted earlier that when we are true victims, as in the case of abused children, those children grow up--and unless they face the abuse and seek healing, they will further abuse others. All of us who have been deceived--even unknowingly--are marked by the deception. We unwittingly perpetuate mistreatment on others when we are bound in deception. We ultimately cannot blame those who abused us if we refuse to deal with the facts and "get well". The things we do to others as a result of the abuse or deception we suffered are our responsibility. For example, I came to the point a few years ago where I had to ask God to forgive me for endorsing Adventism to scores of students. I was deadly sincere, and I wanted to serve God--but I was wrong. I asked Him to forgive me and to redeem that teaching in my students lives for His glory. I was deceived--but I was not innocent. Naivete is not the same as innocence. We are held accountable for our misdeeds, just as Eve was held accountable for her deception. The serpent was cursed for deceiving, and Eve was cursed for acting in deception. Adventists are not demons. They are God's creations who need freedom from the false doctrines and skewed concept of God that keeps them from knowing Jesus deeply. Adventism, on the other hand, is a system of belief, as you said. it is a false system. There is absolute truth--and we cannot endorse all beliefs as equally valid. The problem with Adventism is not their debatable doctrines. The problem with Adventism is they have a false prophet who functions as a continuing source of extra-biblical authority, they teach an incomplete and insecure atonement, and they do not teach their members to honor an all-powerful, sovereign Lord Jesus. These problems are not just debatable; they are heresies that keep people from knowing the truth and being able to experience salvation. God intercedes in the individual lives of Adventists, and many respond, desiring to know truth. But Adventism is heretical, and that is actually a serious problem. I am not villifying Adventists. Deceived people need to be rescued. But deceived people, while not accountable for the deception perpetrated upon them, are responsible for the things they do to others as a result of their deception as well as for their willingness to receive truth as God reveals it. Romans 1:18-20 says that what may be know of God's divine nature and power is made know in creation, and all men are without excuse. Even the deceived are "without excuse". No, they will not be judged for the deception that was taught to them. Others will be judged for that. But they will be judged for their own responses to truth. God sheds His light and His truth abroad to all men, and we are each held responsible for our response to Him, whether or not we were in a deceptive cult. The fact is we are ALL born into the domain of darkness. We are, essentially, born deceived. God holds us accountable for our responses to His revelations of Himself--which He is faithful to give to all men and women. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1335 Registered: 9-2006 |
Susan wrote : It's statements like this that lead me to believe that EGW was not innocently deceived as a result of her head injury. I saw the NOT in your statement Susan, I knew you did not put everything off to a head injury, but many people do and when they do that it gives her a pass on innocence. That’s why I made the statement I did.  Colleen thanks for you explanation to Jim, your answer was both gentle and genuine; I wish I had the ability for gentleness that you do in the way you answer. I had an answer all written up, but I held off hitting the send button, I have put my sand paper back on the shelf and holstered my guns. To the general audience: I will make this suggestion to anybody who cares to read this, (me included) we do need to try to read all post carefully to see if we can understand what the poster is attempting to communicate to the forum and get the spirit it is written in before we get our fuses lit. We are using written words as a means of communication so we need to first give each the benefit of the doubt before going on a tangent. Now this is also said in love and concern for all. No sandpaper intended. Would a first assumption of “he\she is communicating in love” be in order before we assume other motives? River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2062 Registered: 10-2004  |
Jim, If Colleen is villifying Adventists, then she is also villifying us former Adventists (including herself), since we all have been deceived, as well.
God's mercy does not and cannot forgive sincere mistakes (or insincere mistakes for that matter), without justice. God cannot overlook "mistakes"--sincere or insincere. Sin must be punished. God IS just. The Good News is that Jesus, God Himself, did take the punishment for sin upon Himself and paid the penalty in full on the Cross. God's mercy cannot forgive our mistakes/sins, whether sincere or insincere, apart from the blood of Jesus. But because of His blood, God can and will forgive, and blot out completely and forever, ALL of a person's sins and sin nature the moment anyone trusts in Jesus and His blood alone to save them from their hopelessly sinful and lost condition. But apart from that, no, a person's "sincere mistakes" cannot and will not be "overlooked" by God's mercy, not now or at any point in eternity. God's holiness and justice is eternal and immutable. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on August 23, 2007) | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 328 Registered: 3-2005 |
Has anyone ever read or listened to the Chronicles of Narnia? I LOVE IT! I can listen to the vocal production by Focus On The Family for hours on end. One of my favorite scenes is when Eustice, who has been cursed and is in the form of a dragon, comes face to face with Aslan (the depiction of Jesus). Aslan looks at Eustice and knows who he is even though no one else recognizes him. Then Aslan RIPS Eustice apart right down to the most painful part of himself. He tears flesh and more flesh. Eustice is crying out in pain. It's horrifying, it's ugly and it seems so cruel. And then Aslan picks Eustice up and puts him in healing waters. The pain eventually subsides and Eustice comes to realize that he would still be a dragon without the work that Aslan just performed. It is such a dramatic, prophetic really, picture of the nature of man, our sinfulness and God's work in saving us. We cannot be healed until we face our horrific ugliness. I only understood God's rich mercy when I understood how devastating my own sin was AND the eternality of it. In Galatians, Paul calls those who are being taught a false gospel 'betwitched', 'foolish', 'severed from Christ'. Truth requires a firm stand. Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 331 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ok...I waited too long to edit my post so I've rewritten the story to try and show the picture more clearly: good grief... One of my favorite scenes is when Eustice, who is despairing because of a curse that caused him to become an ugly, fire-breathing dragon, comes face to face with Aslan (the depiction of Jesus). Eustice looks at Aslan. Aslan looks at Eustice and to the dragon's surprise, Aslan knows who he is even though no one else recognizes him. When Eustice declares his desire to be freed from the curse, Aslan goes to work and RIPS Eustice's dragon skin apart right down to the most painful part of himself. He tears flesh and more flesh. Eustice is crying out in pain. It's horrifying, it's ugly and it seems so cruel. And then Aslan picks Eustice up and puts him in healing waters. The pain eventually subsides and Eustice comes to realize that he would still be a dragon without the work that Aslan just performed. It is such a dramatic, prophetic really, picture of the nature of man, our sinfulness and God's work in saving us. We cannot be healed until we are broken by our horrific ugliness. I only understood God's rich mercy when I understood how devastating my own sin was AND the eternality of it. Patria | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2007 |
Let's not be angry anymore at the wrong done to us by EGW and her false doctrine. Let's rejoice and praise God. Let us thank Jesus for saving us and taking us out of that darkness. Let's thank God for revealing His Truth to us and allowing us to listen to the Holy Spirit. My spirit is celebrating with Praise for Jesus, for He has set us Free! Let us pray that many of our loved ones who are still in that darkness will see the light and come out. God works in great ways. I pray and ask God to use me to reach others trapped in the outer darkness and bring them to Him. I am beginning to see how God works now. I was raised Catholic but at the age of 13 I dropped out. I was angry at God for my life. My dad was a heroin addict and left us when I was 4. My mom was (still is...I'm praying) an alcoholic. I ended up dropping out of school and getting in trouble. I became an agnostic. I lived that way from 13 to 31. Than my Brother-in-law the Elder SDA started talking bible with me. I agreed to bible studies at my house every Thursday night. 2 years later I'm a full fledged die-hard SDA. But than God starts revealing things to me from his Word that I start questioning. At first I'm trying to refute them, but they always stayed there in the back of my mind. Than I started reading things EGW wrote (Copied) and thought "WHAT?" So I decided to put down the EGW and SDA studies and read the Bible only. Hey if the SDA was the true chruch than the Bible would reveal that to me right? WRONG!!! VERY WRONG!!! So only in a matter of 3 months I have been taken on the greatest ride of my life. Jesus has set me free and opened my heart and eyes to His real Gospel Truth. So now I feel the Holy Spirit moving me to show these truths to my SDA family-in-law. God works in Great ways. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1035 Registered: 8-2004  |
Yes Patria, that is an amazing scene. I also like the part where Eustace first tries to remove the dragon part of himself on his own. He keeps shedding dragon skin, and it's relatively painless, but there always still dragon underneath. It took him surrendering to Aslan's touch to actually get the hideous thing off so he could be restored to himself. Mary |
