| Author |
Message |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 196
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 7:04 am: |     |
Colleen,
You wrote:
We are, essentially, born deceived. God holds us accountable for our responses to His revelations of Himself--which He is faithful to give to all men and women. "
This, I agree with.
I accept the point that honest error does not make a wrong act right.
I simply meant that one is not accountable for an honest mistake as long as they are acting in honest application of their percieved understanding of God's will.
"Whatever is not of conviction is sin"
This speaks to people doing their best as they understand it. Notwithstanding a judgement error.
This does not undo the consequences for error.
"My people perish for lack of knowledge"
I am not defending the error. I am defending the accountability and guilt of the one who offends in error unintentionally.
As for villifying. I apoligize if I came across on that point too strongly.
I agree, truth must be spoken and people need to know. I was just tryingto say that the tendancy to ascribe negative assessments to people distract from the loving nature of the mission to discover truths. It is a form of temper we don't need.
River, I realize or suspect that I aggrivate you. I don't mean to.
Sometimes I ask questions from pain, sometimes from confusion and some from frustration.
I am not hostile or flippant in my intent.
I tend to aim at putting out fires and making things right when I can.
Temper, my own temper, has caused tons of damage in my own life. I guess that is why I am so sensitive to it.
I suppose I get my feelings bruised easily. That usually comes from being misjudged and accused of intent never meant. It may appear I am playing games or being stubborn. I am not. It is part of the learning process. |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 332
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 7:52 am: | |
Mary:
Yes. Beautiful. (and thank you for showing me the correct spelling of EustAce.) 
Patria |
Benevento
Registered user
Username: Benevento
Post Number: 159
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 8:10 am: | |
Pnoga What a life!! I thank God for his leading,
and for you listening. And I rejoice with you!!
And I pray for your influence on your in-laws
Peggy |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1344
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 10:03 am: | |
Jim,
You are no aggravation to me at all, I pray for your further growth.
Your questions and opinions challenge me to think.
Bless you brother for your opinions and questions.
Your questions and opinions means that you are still working at it, no diffrent from me really, I am still working and trying to understand those who I care for.
I myself am trying to understand the question of guilt or innocence on the persons part who lives under and propagates a false gospel by doing so.
It is not for the purpose of condemning them or persecuting them that I seek these answers ,but rather to know how to help them.
I have to face the truth regardless of how painful it might be to me or I am useless to help them.
Sometimes I come across as rough and cold I suppose but we all love you Jim.
And hey, writing on a forum is a challenge in itself but I find it helps in ways to solidify my thinking.
River |
Sara
Registered user
Username: Sara
Post Number: 43
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 10:46 am: | |
Pnoga, God's hand has been on your life. I can't wait to hear what He does with the rest of it!
Thank you for the reminder to Praise. We are so blessed He chose to bring us out of darkness into His light.
I agree Patria, great example.
Sara |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6644
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 1:06 pm: | |
Jim, Romans 5:12-14 addresses the issue you brought up. Paul says that death came to all men because of Adam's sin, and "death came to all men, because all sinned—for before the law was given sin was in the world."
Then Paul explains that even though all sinned and all humans are sentenced to death, there is a difference in the way God accounts sin. Verse 13b: "But sin is not taken into account when there is no law." IOW, Even though people are sinners and sinning and condemned to death for their inherent sin, God does not hold them responsible for breaking the law when they don't know about the law.
Nevertheless, Paul says, "death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come."
So, people who sin without being conscious of sinning, without conscious intent to hurt or destroy or disobey--God knows what they know and don't know, and he doesn't take sin "into account when there is no law." The paradox, though, is that these sinners are still guilty and are still worthy of death.
So, as I see it, sin is accounted to us differently depending upon what we know and upon whether or not we set ourselves up as teachers of truth. James 3:1 says that not many should be teachers, because teachers are held to a higher standard.
Even though those who sinned without having the law, God did not consider them innocent--but neither does He account sin to them in the same way He accounts it to those who know God's will and who know the truth.
Dale Ratzlaff says that acting in defiance of our consciences shipwrecks out faith. But consciences can be mis-taught, and things we beleive to be true may not be true. If we refuse to know the truth when truth is available, that refusal will lead to the shipwreck of our faith. We cannot refuse to know by arguing that we're just honoring what we believe in our consciences. If we do that, we walking away from truth instead of searching for it.
I believe that when we become aware that we sinned, even when we didn't know previously that we sinned, we need to ask God to forgive us so we can give Him access to the places in our hearts that need His light and truth. Paul was in this category--see 1 Tim 1:13.
As far as those within Adventism, River, who sincerely continue in their Adventism--only God knows what's going on. But I do know that He brings them means of knowing. He has given your Adventist friends you, for example, and He has also given them His word. They are either seekingto know truth, or they are hardening against it. You may never know for sure where they are. But I do know that God does give us the opportunity to seek Him with all our hearts.
Colleen |
Luzisbornagain
Registered user
Username: Luzisbornagain
Post Number: 103
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 9:32 am: | |
wow, pnoga. You went from Catholocism to agnosticism to then adventism now to Christ! Man, what a ride. Many folks would just be stuck on agnosticism for the rest of their lives or never come out of cahtolocism to begin with or would've just given up during that whole process. God truly is guiding you. Amen to that.
Colleen, thanks for that clarification. That's what I figured. We're all guilty of some kind of deception and no matter how sincere and well meaning we were in propagating the error of adventism or whatever other deceptions we may have had in our lives, we are held accountable for seeking the truth or rejecting it.
(Message edited by luzisbornagain on August 25, 2007) |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 335
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 9:37 am: | |
Pnoga:
Yes, thank you for your testimony. That was very moving.
Patria |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 4195
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 10:51 am: | |
Pnoga,
Thank you for your testimony. That has been quite a journey. Now that Jesus has a hold of you, you will find yourself only being lifted up. God is so awesome.
Diana |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 200
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 6:15 am: | |
Ms. Colleen,
Thank You, very well spoken and I am in agreement.
I recall another verse that has some meaning to me.
Jesus said; "Father , Forgive them, they know not what they do".
This scripture points out offered forgivness, while they were still in error. Compassion, despite the harm they were doing. Assurance, that paves the way to correct the errors as they grow in truth and grace. Rescue, despite their current state of shame and corruption.
It demonstrates and broadcasts God's love for us messed up sinners. |
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