| Author | Message | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hello everyone, Ive been lurking around this forum for about 3 months or so and recently made the decision to remove my SDA membership. A little background, I am a 20 year old married student at Union College. My parents converted to SDA before I was born and I grew up SDA. I was never satisfied with the answers I received to my many questions and began studying for myself and I now attend a non-denominational church in Lincoln. My question is this: I sent a letter requesting my membership removed and the SDA paster would like to discuss my reasons for leaving. I feel I have solid Biblical basis for my beliefs, however there is one text that I'm not sure how to interpet and I need to understand in order to have this discussion with the pastor. It hasn't come up yet, but i am fairly confident that it will. The text is Luke 23:53-55. How does this relate to any obligation we may be under to keep the Sabbath? I am convinced that we are no under under the law, but this text shows Sabbath-keeping? Any help you all could give me would be much appreciated as I really respect all of your insights. Thanks! Bree (Message edited by bree_w on August 21, 2007) | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 146 Registered: 8-2005 |
Bree_w, Welcome to the forum! I am not as well versed as most on this forum related to how texts regarding the Sabbath should be handled, but the text you refer to really only states that the women did not embalm the body of Jesus because they 'rested according to the commandment'. These women were Jews living in Jerusalem in the middle of Jewish culture. It only makes sense to me that they would observe the commandment. I find it doubtful that any of them (at that point, anyway) would have had any real concept of what the life, death and soon resurection of Jesus really meant in terms of how they were to relate to the law. Beyond that, however, I would add this. When you meet with the pastor, don't let him get you hung up over the Sabbath. If that were the only troublesome issue with Adventist doctrine there would not be much of an issue at all. I feel confident that you did not decide to drop your SDA membership solely because you no longer see the necessity of being a Sabbatarian. There are other issues that are much more troubling - such as belief in an extra-Biblical prophet, a twisted view of the Gospel, the belief that sinful man can ever be 'perfect' enough to stand before a Holy God without Jesus as our Mediator, the total lack of assurance that Jesus has provided a sure and eternal salvation for those who confess and believe that He is the Son of God. There are several other issues that I could name (the doctrines of Election and Original Sin come to mind...those were biggies for me when I left. Dealing with the Sabbath came later). I could go on, but for most of us it was never only about the Sabbath. Some on this board still observe the Sabbath, they just don't consider it salvational the way we did when we were SDAs. Glad to meet you! Keep your focus on Jesus. That is what it is all about! ISO | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 155 Registered: 5-2007  |
Bree, I see by getting up early and turning on my computer this morning I get to be the first to welcome you to this forum. Remember, the Sabbath was given to the Hebrew people and even Jesus kept the it. Only, he refused to abide or follow all the man-made rules that had been added to it. The one critical man made addition that the SDA teaching adds is to make it a "proof" of our salvation when they connect Sunday worship with the Mark of the Beast, etc. In other words, adding something or changing the message of salvation is what is wrong with the SDA doctrine. Secondary, but also important, is to know that Jesus is our "Sabbath Rest". So, in the passage you mentioned, the Jews are simply following their Biblically based teaching and doing what all Hebrew people were expected to do. For even the Jews it was not a question of salvation or even worship. It was a time of rest, or it should have been, without the burden of all the added rules. Phil | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hello ISO, Thank you so much for your answer to my question. That was exactly my understand of that text, but I wanted to hear some other thoughts on it as well =)I absolutely agree with you that if it were just the Sabbath it would be no biggie lol..I think i could write a 50 page paper on all the things in the SDA church I take issue with, but first and foremost I am leaving because I refuse to comprimise the Gospel of Jesus Christ by making my works important to my salvation! Jesus did it all and there is nothing I can do to be more righteous in His eyes. Its totally a God thing =) I actually started with the Sabbath when i studied because I was trying to convince a non-adventist friend of mine to become sda and keep the sabbath..this friend was very knowledgeable and showed me a lot of texts regarding the covenants. After that I really started studying. In Christ, Bree | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hi Phil, Thanks for the kind welcome =) I am glad to finally participate in this forum. I am so glad to get your thoughts on this, because I want to understand these things. My greatest fear is that I could somehow have to go back to the SDA church. I have found such joy in knowing I am saved by grace alone and I never want to go back to life in the law. In Christ, Bree | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2006 |
Bree, I attended Union campus church as well, and I remember at the time Pastor Goddard always implemented the Sabbath law into his sermons,I believe the Pastor at your former SDA church wants to speak to you solely to guilt you on the Sabbath. I know because I went through the same process as well, with my hubby[still SDA] and my in-laws and the pastor.Don't be guilted back into the church ,they will use the Sabbath [Doctrine]to try to make you feel as though your [living in sin] by not obeying it! I would recommend reading and studying the books of Hebrews and Galations, Colassians.Take notes on texts which point out the Sabbath is no longer binding and take these verses with you to your meeting.Remember,Hebrews 4 defines Jesus as "true Sabbath rest".Also too, I recommend asking this pastor where in the bible is the scripture supporting the IJ,Sanctuary Doctrine,ask why it was ok for EGW to lie and decieve,and even guilt people into following SDA doctrine and beliefs.I had many doubts regarding Adventism in the beginning, my Pastor tried to guilt me into Baptism,I attended SDA church for five years and always felt 'not good enough' in the church but after sincere praying and reading of scripture ,and being brave to face persecution and 'dirty looks and comments' I left.I now have a stronger relationship with the Lord and feel 'worthy and saved' into the body of Christ.A denomination that uses guilt to control members is a 'mark' of a cult.Also a good texts I used were Colssians 2:16-18,Hebrews Chapter 4,Galations 4 8-20,these texts are in reference to the Sabbath Day,not just ceremonial days,of which your pastor will try to convince you of!As far as the sanctuary doctrine a good text is Mark Chap. 16 verses 19-20!I'll be praying for you! -Cortney | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2007 |
Thank you so much Cortney =) I can use all the prayer I can get! The pastor I will be speaking with is actually a pastor at Omaha. I heard Pastor Goddard speak on a number of occasions and in comparison to what I was used to, found him to be quite liberal. The pastor in his letter advised me to visit with himself or a Union professor because "I'm sure that anyone of these would be more than happy to meet with you to dispel any wrong information you may have been given" This was after asking my parents if I had read Dale's book Sabbath in Crisis. I must confess, I've never read it...but looking forward to doing so at some point. Thos passages you quoted are some of my favorites and I would add 2 Corinthians 3 and 4 and Romans 14 to that list =) Thank you so much for your encouragement. In Christ, Bree | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 63 Registered: 4-2004 |
Hi Bree, Welcome to the forum. I will be praying about your meeting with the pastor. | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2006 |
I found Goddard to liberal in certain areas,his sermons were better than most I've heard in the SDA church, but I found him to speak of the Sabbath frequently. Also too,he never really spoket about SDA 'fuundamentals' in his sermons,besides Sabbath,that is.Which was probably why the church was somewhat active and alive when I attended there! My husband and I did like Goddard and were sad when he passed on,but even though he may have been somewhat liberal, I believe the members and attenders were still quite decieved in SDA beliefs, as was I. Anyway,I hope our meeting goes well! | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2006 |
Pardon my spelling errors, I'm somewhat in a hurry! Cortney | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 425 Registered: 8-2006 |
Welcome, Bree. I will be praying as well. Susan | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 302 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Bree: Welcome to the forum! Let me know if you want to get together again before you go to see the pastor. Having heard firsthand your solid exegetical ability, I'm confident you don't NEED our input, but still we're here for you if you would like a little extra support. I and I know the others, would like to know when you go. We'd love to be praying for you. In Jesus, Patria | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2007 |
Patria Thanks for the welcome! I finally decided to get over my shyness and have already been greatly blessed by the wonderful Christian support here! I will definetely let you girls know when I will be meeting with him and I will definetely pick your brain some more if I need clarification on anything. I've asked the pastor if he'd like me to provide a list of my issues with the church so he can be prepared to discuss them. I'd hate to have him feel attacked by all the things we may need to discuss. We will see how he replies =) Thank you again for your encouragement =) In Christ Bree | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1314 Registered: 9-2006  |
Hi Bree_w, I wanted to give you a personal welcome and me being a “never been” I decided to withhold comment on those particular passage of scripture and leave the comments to the ones who have been there. I do suspect that the man has not taken into consideration your good, but the good of the Adventist church. I would though, like to remind you that you have the perfect right to refuse an audition with him. I have seen this before on here as I have been here about a year and the most marked thing I have noticed that they usually if not always request your presence in their office or sanctuary. I have to ask the question. Why is this do you suppose? These people are not novices to human nature and psychological impact, which is why they are in that position in the first place. You will be at a disadvantage if you go to his office or sanctuary for an interview and he very well knows that!! The fact that the familiar surroundings of the Adventist organization will come flooding back and tend to disarm you and muddle your thinking, I would think, is a fact to be wary of. I’ll bet you a dollar to a doughnut he wants you to meet on his own turf and in coming to him willing to discuss it shows him he has a shot at recouping his losses, I’ll be willing to put forth that he does not truly have your soul as his chief concern, but he will look at you as losses and gains for his agenda and that of the Adventist church. Oh, he will very well use words to the effect that he is personally concerned for your well being, he may even convince himself that it is for God and you soul he is concerned about, but it is a lie just the same. I will tell you this, if you had been in my congregation under my pastorate, I would have been like Pastor Mark was with his guy, about the second or third Saturday you come up missing I would have chased you to the door and stuck my foot in it trying to find out what your problems were. These are just some of my thoughts as I read your post. River | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hello River =) So good to finally "meet" you! I have the greatest respect for your insights and you have been a great blessing to me as I lurked. I would not feel an obligation to meet with this paster were it not for the fact that my parents are active in the church (my dad is probably going to be the head elder this year) I have declined the suggestion to meet with the religion professors at the SDA college I attend, because I feel no need to discuss my issues with the church with those I have no relationship with. However, I really don't want my decision to influence my parents relationships with the other church member. We probably will be meeting in his home or the church I attended as a child, but honestly I was never very well received there, so I always felt like I was stepping into a war zone on Saturdays anyway. This meeting will be no different. What will be different is that this time I have the Holy Spirit to guide and protect me. I have no fear of a place or environment. As the pastor of the church I now attend says, safety isnt a matter of geography, its a matter of theology =) I agree that he is more interested in the impact on his church than my spiritual well-being, which saddens me.I moved away after I married about a year and a half ago, so he had no way of knowing i was no longer a practicing Adventist, although I highly doubt any effort would've been made to bring me back. My goal for this meeting is to make my dad more at ease with my decision and I believe that meeting with the pastor will do that. I have always believed that if my beliefs cannot stand up to challenge they are not worth holding. So I'm at peace with my decision to meet with this pastor in hopes that I may witness to him about the joy of my Savior. In Christ Bree | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 877 Registered: 1-2003 |
Bree W. Not to throw confusion into the mix...but it is possible that it wasn't even a Friday night that the women were observing (not embalming Christ)...It is possible it was a high Sabbath that week r/t passover. Some think Christ was crucified on Wednesday...this makes sense to me as it coincided with the spotless lamb being slain by the high priest. Also...Jesus gave the sign of Jonah-in the belly of the whale 3 days. No matter how you add it up...Friday night, Saturday all day is only a day and a half. (Even if he didn't rise until Sunday morning at dawn, it still isn't 3 days.) Google this theory and see what you think. I went through the same thing...only it was with my SDA preacher brother. He kept me in a bible study on Christmas eve that lasted 4 hours and finally ended when I told him he could only use the bible and not EGW. I prayed and prayed prior to the encounter and I have never left any conversation feeling so empowered by the Holy Spirit! My pastor could have cared less if I left. There were a lot of people sad when my husband quit attending...but mostly because he was a slave to thier praise team...a piano player! He was there everyweek and never got put in the bulletin as the church pianist or got paid. Other denominations pay their musicians! Don't worry about your encounter...God will be with you. | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2007 |
Pheeki, I have read a little on the wednesday theory and it makes a lot of sense to me. I have always wondered how 3 days could be accurate with the traditional understanding, but I understand there are arguements for both sides =) That is on my list of in depth study topics. I'm not familiar with high Sabbaths and such, having never really studied the Jewish traditional feasts and celebrations much (another item on my list to study)but I am convinced that the text I asked about cannot prove the law is our standard or plays a part in salvation I find it truly amazing that God can take circumstances that are trying to us(the Bible study with your brother) and turn them into such a blessing! You have given me hope that this encounter I'll be having can in fact have a positive effect. In Christ Bree | ||
| Dale Registered user Username: Dale Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2007  |
Bree, I don't know if you have read my on the Sabbath, but if you have a specific question I may be able to help you. | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hello Dale, I haven't had the privelege of reading your book on the Sabbath yet, but hopefully I will at some point =) My question was in regard to Luke 23:53-55 and how that related to Sabbath-keeping in the NT. ISO, phil and pheeki had some great insights and I feel comfortable with my understanding of this passage now, however, if you have additional thoughts you'd like to add I would love to hear them =) | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 148 Registered: 8-2005 |
Bree_w, I will pray for you. When there were questions about my beliefs, I met with the pastor and 5 elders for two or three hours. Asking you to meet with a Union professor is close to foul play as far as I am concerned. They want to do that so that they can explain away simple statements regarding Paul's writings that a day is not an issue, etc. If they throw enough words and compromised theology at the issue then they will 'straighten you out'. I always wonder when someone has to trot out Greek or Hebrew so they manipulate the plain reading of Scripture. That is what they will try to do. Go with God! ISO |
