| Author |
Message |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1299
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 11:17 am: |     |
Oh, O.K. Mary, Glad you cleared that up, you weren't too late, I hadn't yet gone out and poked my head under the hood of my Chevy and begged its forgiveness for lack of faith in it.  don't mind me Mary, I knew full well what you were talking about, I was just being a smart Alick, what is an Alick anyway? Does any body know? I know what a smart is, that's when you bang your head and say "ouch, that smarts" but I never have figured out what a Alick is. 
Guess you can tell when I am in one of my good moods.
River
P.s. Laurie, I have a wonderful way of getting on the wrong side of people, don't I get thanks for that?
(Message edited by river on August 19, 2007) |
Laurie
Registered user
Username: Laurie
Post Number: 80
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 11:34 am: | |
River -
I have to think a little before I respond to you.
And, I will respectfully say to you.... unless you have been born, raised, educated and completely immersed in adventism and all it's culture and baggage, you don't understand completely. You can read all day long about the doctrines and teachings of the SDA church, but until you have lived it,you don't understand.
Laurie |
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 98
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 11:53 am: | |
quote:smart alec/smart aleck/smart alick - someone who is very or 'too' clever (esp. in a cocky manner) According to etymologist David Wilton the most likely origin was suggested by Gerald Cohen in a 1985 article which appeared in the publication Studies In Slang. Cohen suggests the origin dates back to 1840's New York City fraudster Aleck Hoag, who, with his wife posing as a prostitute, would rob the customers. Hoag bribed the police to escape prosecution, but ultimately paid the price for being too clever when he tried to cut the police out of the deal, leading to the pair's arrest. In describing Hoag at the time, the police were supposedly the first to use the 'smart aleck' expression.
http://tinyurl.com/2f9hlm |
Laurie
Registered user
Username: Laurie
Post Number: 81
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 11:55 am: | |
Larry -
Were you born and raised SDA? Did you attend SDA schools? Is your family still SDA?
Of course the bible tells us not to be deceived. When a baby is born into a SDA family, sent through the SDA school system and taught everything in life from the SDA perspective, at what point are they sinning? Do you expect a child to go to their parents or their teacher and renounce adventism? That is not a reasonable expectation.
You must separate the adventist "church" from the adventist "individual". You stated the SDA church teaches a different gospel and is eternally condemned. I agree, but is a 12 yr old, a 15 yr old, a 20 yr old sinning by being a member of that church that they were born into? No, I don't think so. This is where as an adult you become responsible for yourself. Responsible to read and study and find the truth. If it were so easy and simple to "not be deceived" would any of us stayed adventist for so many many years?
Your comment about the pastor, I agree. Again, you can not lump the pastor and individual members together when discussing responsibility.
Your last statement about me personally. Yes, I was a witness that adventism was correct. Truth is, I was not much of a witness. I never told anyone where I went to church, never witnessed to anyone in a good or bad way. Just kept my mouth shut and struggled with the conflict internally. Your second question, NO, I did not agree to ALL the 27 doctrines when I was baptized. Nobody asked me if I did, and I never stated that I did. I knew in my heart I did not, but nobody ever asked me. I was baptized along with every other 12 yr old in the church. Do you think that at age 12 I was going to stand up and renounce EGW, the IJ? No way. Your next question, Yes I always paid tithe. Yes I knew where the money was going. I always trusted God to use my money appropriately. That may have been irresponsible of me, but at the time, it was the best I could do.
I feel no need to ask for repentance for being a seventh day adventist. Nobody ever in my entire SDA life came to me and tried to show me the truth. I was never given an opportunity to see the error of the church. I am not sitting here saying I had no responsibility for seeing it for myself. I take complete and full responsibility for the fact I stayed in the SDA church as an adult. But as I said before, if it were so easy to get out and so easy to see the truth, none of us and none of the other millions of adult SDAs would have stayed in that church.
Laurie |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 1016
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 12:17 pm: | |
Laurie. I agree it's very hard for people from 'outside' to understand the hold Adventism has over it's children. Yet River has shown more understanding than many who have no SDA heritage. And yet, we are all born into sin. Being raised Adventist makes us no more and also no less sinners then every one else on the planet, and a Christian does not need to have tasted every sin in order to offer a Savior to the sinners. He only needs to have tasted the Salvation freely offer to redeem him from HIS sin.
As for myself, my family has been SDA for generations (3 on one side, 4 on the other). Among my ancestors I count SDA pastors and lay pastors, SDA teachers, nurses, doctors, and authors. I myself was born into an SDA home, raised SDA, attended SDA schools, and later moved on to the SDA Reform Movement (formed from SDA members in Europe who were disfellowshipped because they refused to participate in WW2 despite the word given by SDA leadership there that SDAs would both carry weapons and work on Sabbath). I was trained as a Bible Worker, married a SDARM Bible Worker/Preacher, and I sought to live 'my faith' as I was taught and believed. And yet, I was living a lie (which I believed with all the honesty I was aware of in myself).
I sinned by actively promoting SDAism (and later the SDARM). I sinned by making excuses and rationalizations when faces with contradictions, accepting the word of SDA teachers, preachers, authors, and 'the messenger of God', instead of taking the time to study for myself until God made it clear. I sinned by assuming that 'we have the truth' and allowing myself to rest in the 'feeling of rightness'. I sinned by thinking that I, with God's help and Jesus' strength of course, could somehow save myself. I sinned in believing that I would someday be able to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. I sinned in believing that Jesus would someday abandon me despite His own clear word to the contrary. I sinned in trusting to the faith of my fathers instead of seeking for and finding Jesus as He is, coming to Him alone that I might have life.
Any yet God in His mercy heard my prayers while yet deep in the deception of Adventism. He saved me, led me on step by slow step, and has brought me out into an abundance of riches in the wide open fields of His grace.
Does Adventism teach error? Yes. Is there any error that is 'of the truth'? Of course not! Can (and does) God save people while they are still in SDA error? Most assuredly. And yet He calls us from darkness into His marvelous light. Should we then claim that that since He saved us while still deceived that that sin of that deception isn't so bad after all? God forbid! If it were not sin we would not need forgiveness. Forgiveness is offered us full and free not because we did no wrong, but because our wrong is so hideous that we must be forgiven or perish. And this applies to anything we have clung to instead of Jesus alone. This applies as much 'search the scriptures' thinking there to have found eternal life but will not come to Jesus, "that ye might have life" as it does to those who refuse even to look at religion for fear of being taken in.
Blessings,
Mary
(Message edited by helovesme2 on August 19, 2007) |
Laurie
Registered user
Username: Laurie
Post Number: 82
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 12:26 pm: | |
Mary -
I respect your comments and opinion, but I do not feel I was sinning by being an adventist.
Laurie |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 1017
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 12:30 pm: | |
If it's not sin why stop? |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1301
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 12:30 pm: | |
Laurie,
I can see that I might have offended you with that statement and first of all I would like to mend that rift.
I take your statement to heart that I can never completely understand where the former is coming from, someone being born and raised in Adventism. I do the best I can to understand, I am not here as a cold observer to this plight.
I also agree with you that we must keep the individual separate from the Adventist organization.
I wouldn’t like to suggest that anyone now go on a guilt trip nor was that my intention and most of all I wouldn’t want to hurt anyone here.
So Laurie, if I have offended you in any way, please forgive me.
River |
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 100
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 12:39 pm: | |
Laurie, you have some very good points that would come under the heading of "accountability". Most 12 year olds who are baptised are not being responsible. They trusted their pastors and parents not to lead them astray (millstone ... neck). How seared is their conscience at that point? Probably not at all. How about the 65 year old "child" that has been ignoring pangs of conscience for decades? At some point they are given over to the lie, as mentioned in 2 Thess 2.
Wouldn't you agree that when opportunities for truth come along, and we just stomp on those nagging red flags with our sda boots, that is the same as searing our consciences? All sda's know about sunday-church goers, but do they investigate Saturday vs Sunday fully (or the meat eating issue, or a hundred other things)? Or do they smugly sit there and say "We are right and we know it" and look up some more egw quotes on the subject? That was the stance of the post-Millerites, and they were a decieved bunch.
I have family that routinely ignores my warnings. It seems they have also taken on the lying character of the sda church in that they actually white-lie all the time (or preach what they don't know). Very sad, but very serious business. Praying for them.
I have recently maintained that those who do not study the Bible are particularly susceptible to adventism, and once they don their egw glasses, all bets are off.
This deception is soo utter and complete, that like many here have said before, it is a miracle that anybody is called out of it. You can thank God for that! |
Laurie
Registered user
Username: Laurie
Post Number: 83
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 1:15 pm: | |
Mary -
I stopped because I was convicted through the power of the holy spirit and through much prayer and study that the SDA church was full of error.
Laurie |
Laurie
Registered user
Username: Laurie
Post Number: 84
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 1:28 pm: | |
Larry -
Yes, I agree that opportunities came along that I ignored. That is why I stated I take full responsibility for my actions as an adult.
But to make a blanket statement that all SDAs are sinners just by being a member of that church is wrong.
My daughter was 12 yrs old when we left the SDA church. She is now 14. By the comments made in this thread, she is guilty of the sin of being an adventist. She has not even been baptized yet. I can not imagine sitting down with her and saying "honey, you should have come to your father and me and pointed out that we were attending a church that taught a false gospel and kept the sabbath. We need to kneel down now and ask God to forgive you for that sin of attending an adventist church." Can you imagine saying that to a 14 yr old? I can't imagine saying that to anyone of any age.
This next statement will be hard for me to express accurately, but I seem to have a different view than most people on this forum. I never wore the EGW glasses. I knew in the first grade of my little SDA school I did not and would not ever believe in her in any way. I had no idea of the depth of her involvement in every aspect of adventism, especially the sabbath. She was not talked about in my home as a child. We did not own a single book of hers besides the 5 books, whatever they are called... patriarchs and prophets, great contreversy, etc.
It has never entered my mind to ask for forgiveness for being an adventist. Rather.... I thank God many many times each day for taking me out of it!
Laurie |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 1018
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 1:58 pm: | |
I think I begin to see a different issue in your posts than I was addressing. As I see it, we are all sinners by virtue of being born humans in this sinful world. If we were not, we would not need saving.
It is my understanding that every human who places something else in the place in their life that Jesus belongs is sinning, no matter how ignorantly they may be doing it. I believe this is true whether or not that person has ever acknowledged Jesus' claims on them or not and whether or not that thing is a physical sin or a mental error. Thus those who are born into Adventism and trust it to be the way of salvation are sinning, not because they've broken some 'thou shalt not be an SDA' commandment, but because they have not yet come to Jesus alone that they might have life. This is why every person who is born into this world (except for our Savior) stands condemned until God brings them to Himself in salvation.
At the same time I believe God makes every effort to meet each person where they are. I believe it is safe to commit the salvation of every soul, including those of our minor children, next door neighbors, perceived enemies, and everyone who is more or less deceived by the god of this world, in the awesome hands of our Father in heaven. It is our business to share what we have learned of God (and where light comes, things of darkness are often revealed) and entrust ourselves and those around us to God's capable hands.
I agree that sitting your 14 year old down and chiding her for not straightening you out would be useless and likely detrimental. In fact I would venture so far as to say it is vary rarely the business of any of us to sit anyone down and try to convict them of their sin. That's the Holy Spirit's job.
In writing what I have I am testifying to what I have found in myself, and sharing how I understand things. It is not my business to make you believe as I do. We are both servants of one Master, and it is to Him that we will stand or fall (and we have the promise that we will be held up, for God is able to make us stand).
Thank you for your patience and continued discussion.
Blessings,
Mary |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 112
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 2:02 pm: | |
Larry
We are all equally sinners and are all equally in need of repentance.
Whether we are in the false system of humanism (the world) or in a false religious system does not make us more sinful and neither does being a member of a biblically correct system makes us more righteous.
I believe that the only repentance God requires is for us to acknowledge our sinful condition and to accept the assurance of salvation by God’s grace through faith in the atonement of His Son Jesus Christ.
Those who have left such systems have already done so – PRAISE GOD!!
JONVIL |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6590
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 7:44 pm: | |
I see my being born into Adventism and my own culpability this way. Imagine that a child is severely abused. The child is completely an innocent victim of the abusive parents. The parents are 100% responsible before God for what they have perpetrated on their defenseless child.
The child, through no fault of its own, is left with deep psychological scars. Depending on the types of abuse he might have suffered, those scars can range from severe attachment disorders that prevent normal committed relationships later in life, to self-destructive behaviors including severe addictions and eating disorders, to violent or aggressive behavior which terrorizes or even endangers others. These reactions are directly the result of the child's being severely hurt and deeply bruised in his own heart.
Yet when that child matures, he can no longer blame his parents if he acts out in those destructive ways. Even though his behavior was not his choice initially but shaped by his abusive past, God brings each person to times in their lives when they have to decide whether or not to continue reacting to the world as a frightened, abused child or whether he will submit to the Lord Jesus and take responsibility for getting help in healing from the past.
Here's what I have realized: when I treat people in ways that hurt them because I am unable to see reality accurately as a result of whatever may have shaped me in the past, I have sinned. I cannot blame my "innocent victim" past for my present sin. Yet my "innocent victim" past has prepared me to perpetrate sins agauinst others. I have to repent for the sin which has become part of my life—even though I did not choose the circumstances that taught me to commit those sins.
I have had to repent for the damage I have done to others as a result of my having been a deceived Adventist. And I have had to ask God to remove the spirit of Adventism from my heart and to place His Holy Spirit in the place where Adventism had resided, shaping and teaching me to live contrary to the truth.
I was 100% sincere and loyal as an Adventist. I prayed to honor Jesus whle I was an Adventist. And yet I "promoted" Adventism in my sincerity and deception. Even though I was ignorant, as Paul was when he killed Christians, I was not innocent—as Paul also was not. Like Paul, I have had to repent for what I did when I acted ignorantly in unbelief. For even though I wanted to serve Jesus, I had no idea how to serve Him. I did not understand that He alone was my salvation and Substitute, and my life was lived as a sincere, earnest, and dedicated cult member who wanted to do what was right.
When Jesus removed the veil through the washing with His Word, I realized that my past had been shaped by a lie, and I had perpetrated that lie unknowingly. As the reality of my situation sank in, I realized I had to repent for what I had done and to ask the Lord Jesus to set me free from the spiritual claim of the Adventist lie.
I did not come to this realization all at once. First came my (actually Richard's and my) realization that we had to ask God to free us from the spirit of Adventism which was the veil which made us vulnerable to the deception we had experienced. Some months (perhaps even a coupls or so years?) later, I realized that I had to ask God to forgive me for having taught and endorsed Adventism to so many of my students, and to ask Him to redeem that in their lives for His glory.
As Mary has said so well, we are all born into sin. Adventism was the particular "shape" our sin took. We are all in the same boat--born into sin. And when God shows us the shape of our sin, at that point we repent.
God is faithful to waste nothing and to redeem everything we submit to Him.
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 4163
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 8:36 pm: | |
Colleen,
For anyone to heal from past hurts, habits, hang ups, they have to acknowledge where they are responsible and where they are not responsible. They also have to acknowledge what they did in response to the things they were not responsible for.
Being born into adventism was something over which I had no control. As I learned about what adventism really taught as an adult, then I became responsible for what I knew. I like to say my 12 step program took away the cobwebs of adventism, so that when God showed me about it, I gave it up very easily. Thank you God. You are so awesome.
Diana |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1303
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 9:27 pm: | |
Dianna,
That was really cool you having your 12 step program, honest 12 steppers are usually prepared for change and when God gets ready to act on ones life its really amazing how he paves the way, not only to save us but to meet our needs at the deepest level.
He truly is awesome and amazing.
River |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 4166
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 9:53 pm: | |
River,
Have you heard about Celebrate Recovery? It is based on the 12 steps of AA, but it has condensed the 12 steps to 8 principles and has Bible verses for the 12 steps and for the 8 principles. It is a Christ centered program. In the 12 step program one says "my name is--- and I am..identify with disease. In CR one says, "My name is Diana and I am a child of God or believer in Jesus and I am bothered with an eating disorder, or whatever the problem is. One identifies with Jesus. I really like it and it has helped me so much. There is not room here to tell how and I do not have the time.
Celebrate Recovery started in my church in April of this year.
God truly knows what we need at the deepest level and provides it. He is so awesome.
Diana |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1304
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 10:12 pm: | |
Laurie,
I have been thinking over what you said about me not being able to understand the Adventist or former Adventist having not been raised an Adventist.
God hasn’t brought me this way and given me no understanding of Adventist and former Adventist.
I think I have a very deep understanding of Adventism and also the former Adventist.
I think you under estimate the Holy Spirits ability to make someone know the cost to the former and the mind of the practicing Adventist.
The Holy Spirit has brought me before the very deceiving spirit behind Adventism and I looked it in the face and said “I see you!”
As for the former Adventist, I weep for you and hurt with you as though I was raised in it and I see the cost, this he has allowed to happen also.
I think you have under estimated what God has done here, I don’t claim to know his reasons for it, he hasn’t made me privy to them and maybe never will, but I do intend to go into where ever we takes me.
Its not my doing Laurie, so its not up to me to say I don’t understand while knowing full well I do.
Respectfully I must decline your statement.
River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1305
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 10:17 pm: | |
Dianna,
No, I haven't heard of celebrate recovery, is it on the internet where I could read up on it?
River |
Laurie
Registered user
Username: Laurie
Post Number: 86
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 2:58 am: | |
River -
I said you didn't understand completely. Obviously, by your posts, you have a very good understanding. But I don't feel you will have the "complete" understanding of living it.
Laurie |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1307
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 7:29 am: | |
Laurie,
I see, thanks very much for your input, I will try to keep that in mind.
Apparently you understood me to be lumping everyone raised in Adventism or in Adventism into a pile by making this statement ” Now there are going to be folks who say this “Oh, it was Adventism, but it was not sin!” Oh no? Then what exactly would you say it was? If it is not sin and doesn’t go against the bible or your conscience then you have nothing to repent of or be ashamed of. “
1. I never lump all Adventist into a pile, ever, that goes for former Adventist as well.
2. I was referring to the propensity for some formers to try to hang on to parts of Adventism and their refusal to call it what it is, I have been concerned about that for some time, because failure to recognize Adventism for what it is, I feel, is very detrimental to them and will only prolong their journey out of Adventism and perhaps leave some in such a state of confusion that they are caught in between.
That’s the reason I made that statement, not to bring condemnation on anyone.
If this forum is truly for the purpose helping those who are on the journey out of Adventism and to minister to those who are in need of it, I just can’t see where refusal to call Adventism for what it is, is going to help anybody.
While there are always those who are shocked and consider us mean hearted and vindictive and they are just going to go off and eat worms, that’s their problem.
I also understand that there are those to whom the Lord came into their heart at a very young age and “there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus” although he/she may very well be involved with the Adventist church. I feel that you are one of those.
There are just too many variables in each persons life to go lumping everyone together in one pile. People are as different as the leaves on a tree, every person is unique.
People have misunderstood me before on this issue and I really don’t know what’s causing it. What do I need to correct? Do I come across as cold and indifferent?
All I was trying to say in that whole post really was that we all have sinned in some way or another and the former Adventist has nothing to be ashamed of, I was a drunk, mistreated my family, I recognize responsibly, but I no longer have to be ashamed, God himself has removed my shame because he took it on his on self and by his stripes I am healed, all was saying to the former is to hold your head up, you are a child of the King, it was Christ who paid the price, not the Evangelical church you may be associated with and if they don’t understand that’s their problem, it is by his stripes you are healed.
Why I am pursuing this line of thought “you have not been raised Adventist and cannot fully understand us” are the issues that it raises.
The issues are with me, not you.
River |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2046
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 11:28 am: | |
River, I understood what you were saying, and I thought it was very good.
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6599
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 3:13 pm: | |
River, I also understood you, and I agree with your assessment. In fact, your having "never been" helps us who have to see and understand much more clearly what we actually lived with.
I will never forget the night you posted your having been brought, by the Holy Spirit, to see the monstrous spirit of Adventism for what it really is. I was thinking again last night how overwhelming and affirming it was to read that. Your being gifted with that insight confirmed to me in a deep way that I am not just "over-reacting" or being self-serving, as others have strongly suggested.
What we experienced really was dark; knowing that Jesus has rescued us from that darkness is overwhelming. I am grateful beyond words.
Colleen |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 587
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 3:29 pm: | |
Amen, Colleen! |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 4168
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 5:27 pm: | |
River, Google "Celebrate Recovery" and you will find it. It has been going for about 19 years now. It is a fantastic program.
Diana |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1311
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 7:13 pm: | |
O.K. Dianna,
I looked it up and found it. Thanks. It sounds like something that could be started in any small community.
River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1312
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 7:34 pm: | |
By the way Dianna, I am sorry that you tread got muddled, I feel its my fault.
Guess you are back home by now, if you have time to write, tell us something about the Christians you met at Laguna Beach. How many were there?
River |
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