| Author | Message | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hi Reb, I want to encourage you in the struggle your facing. In many ways I'm where you are. I know the truth, love the people deeply and the SDA church I attend (ed) (I'll explain later) is grace based - kinda, sorta. There are days when the service is truth-filled and I see nothng wrong. There are others when I KNOW there is serious and dangerous error. Fellowship dinners are fun and the zeal for evangelism is second to none at least in my SDA church. I haven't found any of the intense fellowship that happens in SDA churches in any of the others that I've visited, yet. My pre-SDA church welcomed me back with open arms, but I missed the culture I grew to love (in a very short time I might add). If I had had family resistance in addition to the mix of feelings I was experiencing, I don't know what I would have done. Have you shared your story with trustworthy Christians at the SDB church? Could you attend a Bible study or mid-week services there? I think I understand your position. You know the truth. You know the Gospel and Jesus IS first in your life. Rest in that Reb. Everyone processes out of Adventism differently! I encourage you to be patient with yourself. The Holy Spirit will win if you are committed to obeying His promptings. Don't let others pressure you into doing things before you're ready. It will backfire. The Holy Spirit will lead you gently in His time as your convictions grow stronger and more firm. Intentions are noble and good, but you are not following people and what they want; You are following the Lord. Everyone (including me) wants you in a truth-filled church with the evident presence of the Holy Spirit. God will provide opportunities for you to study with and be with other solid believers. I believe that with all my heart because people are praying and your desire is for a truth-filled church. I strongly encourage you to stay in the Word, get a prayer partner, join a Bible study (maybe from the SDB church) and begin to just soak up the Word. You sound really stressed and I encourage you know more than ever to be extra gentle with yourself. Jesus loves you more than you will ever imagine. Read through the Gospels and experience Jesus in fresh new ways. Make a prayer list with your wife and son at the top. Prayer changes things. Read some biographies of Christians and see how God worked in their lives. George Mueller and David Brainard are two great ones to start with. There's also a book called Bruchko by Bruce Olson that you might find fascinating. God is still at work in lives today! He can still do those same kinds of things in your life and family! He answers prayer! Also, a book I mentioned in another thread called This Present Darkness will give you a glimpse of the effect your prayers are having. It's fiction, but made a huge difference in the way I view prayer. I thought it was really sound scripturally. Reb, know that the body of Christ is with you! Many are praying with and for you and your family. You belong to Jesus. For now rest in that. As your convictions grow stronger, stuff will happen and you will marvel at how God has worked. I was disturbed to see the part in the title of the thread that said it was a game and that you had lost. It's not a game and you haven't lost! This situation is not over - not by a long shot! It's time to sit back, pray, stay faithful - and watch God work! Leave your wife and son securely in the arms of Jesus. He loves them more than you do! Stay close to Jesus and trust Him! The results are in His hands. His timing and ways are perfect! He knows the end from the beginning. This situation did not catch Him by surprise! Reading the stories of others in this forum was fun. Many had situations similar to yours. Maybe your family will be sharing these things at a FAF weekend sometime soon - who knows! Following Jesus is an adventure! Can't wait to see what He will do or who He will use next! I do agree with the others that your wife needs to see a man completely committed to following Christ. A change in the building you worship in will not change the truth in your heart. Talk with her about specifics when you hear error. Show her what the Bible really says. God will lead you gently as you trust and follow Him! I would love to know how you are doing! Reb, you have know idea how many are praying for you! Your sister in Christ, Joyfulheart | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2006 |
Reb, We were posting at about the same time! I'm so glad God has provided a solution! He does answer prayer. Praise Him! | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 82 Registered: 5-2007 |
Reb, there are actually quite a few of the SDB fellowships in your area, comparitively speaking. I found this link: http://www.seventhdaybaptist.org/7DB/Churches_EN.asp?SnID=2 There is only one in Oregon! | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 571 Registered: 11-2005 |
Joyfulheart, You recommendations brought tears to my eyes. They echo my thoughts. God is so good. It is breath-taking to see the Holy Spirit working through this forum to lift up Reb in this time of need. Reb, we are all in this with you. God bless you, my brother. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 532 Registered: 5-2007 |
Joyfulheart and Gilbert, thanks so much. And Larry, I found another SDB church in Gardena which is half the distance the one in Riverside was for me. So I'll try that. I am sad to be switching SDB churches as I was starting to make friends and get support at the SDB church in Riverside and many of the people there including the Pastor are ex-SDAs and understand what I'm going through. But it's not going to work logistically for me and I cannot stomach going back to Adventism. But going to a new SDB church is far better than going back to Adventism. And maybe there's a reason for this, maybe God has something planned for this. I've gotta believe there's a reason why I must now go to a different and geographically closer SDB church so my wife's "wishes" for our son can be acommodated> I just have to trust Him. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 745 Registered: 6-2006  |
Reb! Good to see you again. Glad you're not dead in a ditch somewhere.  Just be completely honest in your prayers, about what you hope for, what you fear. I've had times where I was so afraid to pray for fear of what the answer would be. However those were the times when I really saw God work his wonders. He wants our hearts! In being patient, and giving all of ourselves, you'll see his faithfulness in ways you'd never imagine. I'll keep praying for the three of you ~ Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2028 Registered: 10-2004  |
Reb, I have a question for you: Do you really think it is healthy to let your wife "force" you to "force" your son to go to SDA church? I hope you don't take offense to this question, it's just something that keeps popping into my mind. Did your son like the SDB church? Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on August 13, 2007) | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 534 Registered: 5-2007 |
He likes the SDB church much better than the SDA church. Adventism has turned him pretty much against church altogether. It's sad actually. To keep peace in the family my son and I both realise we have to go along with this. She thinks the SDA church is the ONLY thing that will keep him away from gangs, but he thinks gangs are "losers" and doesn't want any part of them he just wants to play football. He is, in fact, obsessed with football and I am glad there are much worse things a kid his age could be obsessed with and football is certainly one of the "healthier" things he could be into. Those of you who think I should be more of a leader I agree but I never had a role model for a leader growing up. My parents did not make my brother and I go to church at all, were quite permissive and liberal and my mother basically "wore the pants" in the family and my dad "let her". So I grew up thinking that the mother was the "boss" of the family and wound up marrying a woman with a personality very similar to my mother's(nothing wrong with that I love my wife very much and I love my mother very much). So I really have had no one to "model" what a father who is the spiritual and otherwise "leader " of the family is like. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1004 Registered: 8-2004  |
Hmm. Perhaps you could take your Heavenly Father as a model? | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 535 Registered: 5-2007 |
That's a good idea. | ||
| Cloudy Registered user Username: Cloudy Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2007 |
Reb, I'm glad that things were not so dire for you as you first thought. I can sympathize with your wife's concern about gangs in the neighborhood. Even if he never joins a gang, I would be concerned about his exposure to them, as I would not want him victimized, either. I suppose she may want him to make positive friendships with his peers, and thinks the SDA church is the best source for that. If that was the case, I am sure your son would not mind attending the SDA church, but since he dislikes it so much, it seems unlikely. Nonetheless, you do remain his most important role model, whether you feel equipped for the job or not. I am sorry he will not be able to attend church with you at this point. I'll bet he admires you for seeking Truth and would like to share some of that with you. Michael Gurian has written several books on the development and mentoring of adolescent boys, such as "A fine young man : what parents, mentors, and educators can do to shape adolescent boys into exceptional men". It may give you some ideas on how to help your son. Would your wife mind if he joined a local nonSDA Christian youth group? It would be great if he had some Christian friends. Will continue to pray for you... | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 536 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks, Cloudy. He does admire me for seeking the truth and wants that himself. I would love for him to have nonSDA Christian friends and my wife would not object to that. His best friend in Adventist school was a Mormon and they aren't even Christians and she was going to let him attend Catholic school but he didn't get accepted. He actually dislikes the other Adventist kids and thinks they are "phonies". It upset him the way they would pick on his best friend at the Adventist school just because he was a Mormon, they would do things like yell, "Go to Utah!" to my son's best freind. They also thought my son was only half-Adventist even though up to the last year he attended Adventist school I was still SDA. My son told me that for some reason, the other kids at the Adventist school thought I was Jewish rather than Adventist(I don't know where they got that idea) so they thought he was only half-Adventst. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 970 Registered: 10-2002  |
Reb, I'm praying for you & your family. If your son decides that he likes the SDB church better, I'm praying that your wife will respect your son's choice. Having a FATHER present with him at church is much better than going to church alone. I went to Adventist church many years, and knew people who met at church and then left to go hang out. Others did drugs, others got drunk, and others just played sick video games. I knew people like this at my church near the day-academy I used to go to, and I knew even more people like this at the boarding academy I went to for my senior year (in my year, having sex was the popular trend). Our senior class had its 10-year reunion last year, and one of my friends who went 90% of the class had lost their faith (he joked that they all went out to bars together after the alumni events at the academy finished). If your wife wants your son to stay away from gangs (or other bad things), the SDB church is a far better option. The reason is that the SDB church is founded on the Gospel, while the SDA is founded on the Old Covenant Law, which provoked sin in the flesh (as it was meant to in order to show us we needed Jesus). In other words, the SDA focus on the Law stirrs up the urge to rebel. Rebellion was fun for us growing up Adventist. We became experts at it. Without being grounded in the living gospel (but rather weakly grounded in "Law"), we didn't have any real power that could counteract Satan's temptations and the lusts of the world. On top of it, kids are usually quicker than adults at recognizing hypocrisy, and when we saw so much of it in Adventist adults and leaders, we were all the more sure that it was more fun to play with the world and that there was nothing real in church. Sending your son to church at SDA is a positive way to innoculate him against the real power of God and teach him that there is nothing real in faith, but that the world is better by far. Reb, I'm praying that you and your son can both go to the SDB church, because settling for even one of you at SDA is not healthy, especially not for him. We love you, bro, and don't forget that it is not "over" at all, no matter how upset or firm your wife gets. These are the death-throes of the enemy trying to attack your family. We're praying for you, your son, and your wife. Blessings in His love, Ramone | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 537 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks, Ramone. I hope my wife will come around about this. She really objects to the SDB church because they don't keep the Levitical food laws and they, like other Baptists(and most other Christians for that matter) believe in the immortality of the soul. The only other alternative to Adventism my wife would accept is Messianic Judaism. She concedes that the MJs are as correct as the Adventists(actually more correct as they don't believe in a false profit). The ONLY way I may be able to unify my family spiritually and get my son out of the SDA church is probably Messianic Judaism. I would prefer to keep going to SDB church but I get the feeling my wife is not going to ever accept it she hears the word "Baptist" and completely closes her mind. I have showed her where EGW is wrong and her response is EGW was "human". It really torques her that the SDBs do not keep the Levitical food laws and for that reason I don't know if she would ever accept it. She's basically afraid our son will eat pork if he goes to SDB church with me. One thing I know, there's NO going back to Adventism for me. Hmmmmm let's see I'm down to my third choice now: 1) Started with trying the Eastern Orthodox church, really liked it but had to do it "under the radar" felt like I was lying and couldn't stand the guilt 2) Been going to SDB church for the past 6 months, really, really loved it and now I have to find a new SDB church closer to home or 3) Just try a Messianic congregation and hope maybe I can get my wife to follow me. I much prefer the SDB church but I'm beginning to think pigs will fly before my wife would even set foot in one and I have actually got her to visit an MJ synagogue with me before, so there might actually be hope for this one. I liked the MJ congregation I visited, it was MUCH better than SDA church but still not as good as the SDB church. But sometimes half a loaf is better than none. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1006 Registered: 8-2004 |
The question as I see it, Reb, is whether you and your wife are seeking to find the Reality that Jesus died to bring us to. That Reality is a living, active relationship with God - who is a Personal Being who interacts with us, not an abstract list of does and donts, not even a set of 'pure doctrines'. If this is what you both seek, don't sell your wife short by assuming that God can't bring her to the truth as it is in Jesus just as surely (though not on the same timetable most likely) as He is bringing you. Sure she has strong prejudices. So did many of us. I, for one, turned up my nose many times at people who ate 'unclean' foods. I felt 'above' even those who couldn't seem to do without clean meats. I was made fun of for my choice to only 'milk the cow' (eating dairy products) instead of butchering it to eat hamburgers like my father and siblings. That didn't prevent God from clearing my understanding and bringing me to 'consider all foods clean' when the time was ripe. I had strong 'Sunday' objections too, and stuck to seventh day Sabbath like a pharisee of the pharisees. I loved a weekly break from cleaning house, cooking, etc. and could be quite rigid about what could and could not be done on Sabbath - one time refusing to eat pizza my parents brought home at sundown Sabbath night because it had been purchased 'on Sabbath time'. That didn't prevent the Holy Spirit from getting through and releasing me from the bondage of long faded out shadows and bringing me stunned and disbelieving into the beautiful light of Jesus my true rest. Your wife may be a strong SDA. That does not keep her from being just as much a candidate for radical change as anyone. Is she 'closed minded'? What did Jesus come for, if not to bring light into the darkness? Don't set your sights too low. God calls people out of all sorts of strange and familiar places every day. Who's to say He won't call her out - fully and completely - too? Hang in there! Mary | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 577 Registered: 11-2005 |
Cloudy, thanks for the book recommendations from Michael Gurian. I just ordered some of his books. Reb, we to found that the classroom politics in a small Adventist school is very strange, and seems to be dominated by who they think will contribute the largest number of continuing enrollees. When we switched our son from the local SDA school to a Lutheran school we were shocked to find out how far behind the SDA school was academically! Over the summer we spent quite a bit at Sylvan Learning Center to make up for the differences in the areas of Math and English. Ramone, what you said is so true. I grew up at Andrews University Elementary and Academy. By the time I was 13, I and my classmates had all despaired of being "good enough" to ever make it to heaven. Adventism is a religion based on a fear and despair that shakes a person to their very soul -- like a dog shakes a snake. As a teenager, on Sabbath mornings we would "assemble at the 2000-member Pioneer Memorial Church" and head to town in our cars during Sabbath School and Church. Spirituality was something we were convinced that we had all lost, and we were going to hell anyway. Oh, how I long now for a group of young people I could have associated with like those at the Christian fellowship we currently attend. Behind each young person there is a precious soul who has heard from childhood that Jesus loves them, and that in spite of their shortcomings they are saved. There is a spirit of group acceptance between the youth and adults that brings tears to my eyes -- a little heaven on earth! The focus on Jesus' saving grace makes all the difference in the world. Mary, you have some excellent advice. Reb, people I have known in Messianic Judaism have their own set of "theological baggage." Just because others eat meat (or pork, or whatever), doesn't mean that your son has to. Once a person moves outside Adventism, a most shocking revelation is that they don't have to agree with everything in order to be accepted, and it is still alright. Just because I attend a Baptist fellowship doesn't mean I have to agree with everything the three pastors say -- in fact they consider it a sign of spiritual vitality that there are areas they view differently. I feel that it is critical that you align yourself with mainstream Christianity. It is especially important for your son's emotional well-being and the critical bonding process between you and your son during his teen years. He needs you. You are his role model. You are his anchor. Ultimately your wife will have to accept whatever you choose. Just tell her that in the SDB denomination you are not forced to agree with everything, however it is the closest "expression of truth that you feel God has lead you to at this time." She will certainly produce some type of response. Recognize that, and let her know that you share her concerns. Let her know that as part of your Christian walk you want more than ever to please her, but you know that she would want you to put God's impression on your heart first. Offer to pray together about it. You should be doing that anyway. The "oil of prayer together" works wonders. My gut feeling is that you need to stick with SDB, and let the storm clouds pass on. They will with time. Picture in your mind where you will be in 30 days. A lot can happen. It did for me. When God's timetable is in charge, and we are saying "Yes, Lord", it is all we can do to hang on! By "waffling", and using your wife as your spiritual compass, you confuse your wife and your son about your level of commitment. The focus is not about leaving Adventism, or about all the "dead rats" in Adventism. It is not even about compromising on a mutually agreeable placebo for your Christian family. It is about following Jesus -- wherever He leads you, without hesitation and waffling. About your son... I have a 12-year old son. He looks to me as a role model. That may not be the case when he gets older. The foundation I am giving him now is critical. I will only have at best two more years before he starts feeling a need to establish his own identity. I still hope to maintain a close bond with him through common activites that we do together, but he will be taking over the "driver's seat" for his own destiny. Our two older daughters have gone through this same process. He may use the Christian foundation you have given him to build on. As an Adventist teenager, I despaired of ever being "perfect" enough to stand a chance of going to heaven. As a young Christian, my son has assurance that he is saved. About six months ago he requested that he be baptized at the Baptist church we attend. Jesus is real to him. Reb, time is short for the influence you will have on your son. Don't waffle. He is counting on you. Don't fail him. As you draw closer to the Lord for guidance, He will also lead your wife. Trust Him. <hugs to everyone> Your brother in Christ, Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2036 Registered: 10-2004 |
I agree with Gilbert about the Messianic groups having "theological baggage." In fact, many of them do not believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone (instead believing in salvation by law-keeping, like Adventism), and some of the Messianic groups also deny the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus Christ. Jeremy | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 540 Registered: 5-2007 |
I would have to be careful about that then if I chose that direction. The problem is there is no way I can attend the SDB church anymore given what my wife has ordered me to do. It is over an hours' drive from El Monte to Riverside and the service would be over by the time I even get there. Then I checked out the SDB church in Gardena and found out their services don't start until almost noon and don't end until 2:30. There's NO WAY my son will sit at SDA church until 2:30, I KNOW him. And that's asking more of him than is fair. So I found a Messianic Congregation in Rancho Cucamonga, CA that is logistically feasable for me. I spoke with the Rabbi there and this congregation does NOT reject the Trinity and believes in salvation through Grace Alone. I am going to visit there Sabbath after next just to get an idea. I can't go back to Adventism and this may be my only option. Problem is I don't live close enough to an SDB church where I can drop my son off at SDA church and be on time or make him wait longer than what he would want to or is fair at the Adventist church. He really hates the SDA church and resents that his mother is forcing him to go there but he's accepting it as best he can. But he has already told me when he grows up he is going to become a Catholic. Pigs will fly, IMHO before my wife will ever follow me to the SDB church. I think there is hope that she would follow me to a Messianic Congregation. The food law thing is just too much of a sticking point for her. I have told her that I or the boy don't have to eat pork just because we can. But even the idea that we theoretically could really bothers her. If this Messianic Congregation I am going to visit seems like what I gathered from my conversation with the Rabbi, it may be my best hope. I am very sad at the idea of giving up the SDB church but given that my son is forbidden to go there with me and she means it, If I don't try this option I am afraid I may wind up back in Adventism and I don't want that. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 580 Registered: 11-2005 |
Reb, I have also attended multiple SDA congregations where Messianic Jews attend because "Adventism is the closest thing to what we believe." They want to (naturally) fellowship somewhere. They feel they can just cut out Ellen White, and what they hear from the pulpit satisfies their need to assemble with fellow Sabbatarians. They also identify very strongly with Old Covenant Israel as well as present-day Israel. Reb, It is absolutely critical for you to fellowship with Christians who have at their very core the belief that we are the unworthy recipients of God's mercy and grace. That underlying foundation permeates not only the whole spirit of worship, but an attitude of unspeakable gratitude as well. That is why, as mentioned elsewhere, it is not enough for someone just to leave the works-oriented mindset of Adventism. It must be replaced with a whole new mindset. That is why, for example, a group of former Adventists getting together for a home church will never fill that need. They are all spiritually deficient in the same area! Once you are hooked into "God's Power Grid", there is just no substitute that will do. Those who have not attended a truly Christian worship service such as you and I have, cannot even appreciate the experience. It is powerful and moving to feel the presence of the Holy Spirit as everybody is of one mind in a spirit of worshipful devotion and indescribable gratitude to our Savior. There is no evaluation of others to see if they are wearing wedding rings, using eye shadow, eating meat or attending the theater. Every one of us feels totally unworthy. It is about the exceeding wickedness of our hearts, and the incomprehensible transformation that the Holy Spirit brings into the lives of each of us. These are our "brothers and sisters" in Christ. There is no room in such a place for a critical spirit. I know that you already know all this. "Accept no substitutes." Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 541 Registered: 5-2007 |
You make a very good point, Gilbert. |
