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| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 550 Registered: 11-2005 |
I hate to "rain on the parade" of those who view themselves as "Progressive Adventists". The reality is that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is a hierarchical organization with the control at the top. In the Mary Kay Silver sexual discrimination suit, GC President Neal Wilson used the Roman Catholic Church as an example for the judge to understand how the decisions and control flow from the top. That being the case, let's take a moment and examine what the "thought leaders" at the top are currently promoting. I seem to be on the mailing list for the "International Paper for Seventh-day Adventists" called "Adventist World". You can view it online at http://www.adventistworld.org/site/1/issue/en2007-1008.pdf. It is produced by the "Adventist Review family of publications." Periodically I review "official" material such as this to see what their current emphasis is. The August 2007 issue shows that Progressive Adventists still have a lot of work to do. Either that, or they are living under a delusion. Let's do a quick reality check. The front cover features an attempt to baptize the first "nearly 1,200 new Adventists -- the first wave of an expected 30,000 new church members." The article also poses the question, "How to find the prospective church members." The primary focus of the article deals with the ratio of Adventists to non-Adventists, and how to generate more Seventh-day Adventist "members". The two-page "World Report" has as its title, "World Church: Culture of Kindness Can Help Combat Domestic Violence, Paulsen Says." Next we have a two-page report by GC President Jan Paulsen called, "A Healthy Church". He starts the main portion of the article with an enlightening quote from Ellen White, "Ellen White writes: 'A healthy church is composed of healthy members, of men and women who have a personal experience with true godliness', Mind, Character, and Personality, vol. 2, p. 710." What a revolutionary concept! Perhaps no Bible quote could be found to fit the need. Following this instruction from the "Pen of Inspiration", Paulson admonishes us to 1. Be a "serious Christian", 2. Move past defeat, and 3. Take responsibility. And so, now you know what makes a "healthy" Seventh-day Adventist Church. On page 12 we are provided with "Quote of the Month." "While cheerfulness and a calm resignation and peace will make others happy and healthy, it will be of greatest benefit to oneself.' Ellen G White, Mind, Character, and Personality, vol. 2, p. 662." I feel better already. Page 13 is by David Weigley, President of the Columbian Union Conference, entitled "Experience the Mission." Roughly half of the article takes about the benefits of exercise. David also mentions that he likes to listen to Desire of Ages on his iPod while he runs, and follows up with two quotes from her. I wonder if he has ever thought of listening to the Bible? Moving on we have most of a page devoted to an article, "(Madagascar) Nation's President Challenges Adventists to be Green." On page 24 we have a full page ad promoting a series called "Out of Thin Air." Of course the picture of the speaker portrays him holding an open Bible. It says, "Attend Out of Thin Air at a church near you!" Next we have a four-page advertising insert, "Guide Your Child to God with Books from Review and Herald", from the Adventist Book Center. Prominently displayed on page 1 is an (unofficial) ad for "The Clear Word (Bible) for Kids", with the (unofficial) admonishment from ABC leadership, "Make God's message plain to young hearts with this easy-to-read paraphrase that includes more than 30 pages of colorful charts and lists. Ages 6-10". Run, don't walk, to your nearest ABC and get your own (unofficial) copy for only $29.99! Next is 4-pages(!) that gush on and on about "Powering Mind and Soul -- Southern Adventist University builds it present program on the traditions of the past." Coming up for air, we are greeted next by a full-page ad for "Foundations of Our Faith" featuring a picture of a grinning Doug Batchelor. It encourages us to "Join Doug Batchelor for a unique and inspirational revival that will strengthen your faith, ignite your passion for souls and brace your heart to stand for truth in the last days." A few pages later on page 33 we have another(!) full page ad for the tele-evangelistic series on creation called "Out of Thin Air." Not wanting to let readers forget Adventist "roots", on page 34-35 is an article, "First the Cross, Then the Crown -- The Adventist Church's co-founder reflects on what it means to wait for Jesus" by James White from his autobiographical work, Life Incidents, first published in 1868. Pages 36-37 we are enlightened by Roy Adams, Associate Editor of Adventist World, with a two page article entitled, "The Pre-Advent Judgment -- Should we be scared? Or filled with hope?" along with a sidebar article, "Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary." The main article starts out with the inverted statement, "Seventh-day Adventists speak about a pre-Advent judgment (some prefer the term "investigative judgment") taking place right now in the heavenly sanctuary." I won't bore you with the rest of the mythological content it contains. For "Progressive Adventists" who think the Seventh-day Adventist Church is morphing itself into a Christian denomination, I am reminded of the 1979 movie featuring Steve Martin, called "The Jerk". It starts out with him hitch-hiking a ride in front of his country home. Later in the day his country neighbor drives by, picks him up, and gives him a lift to his neighbor's driveway. By the end of the day he has progressed by one house! That how much progress "Progressive Adventism" is making. Of course no Seventh-day Adventist publication would be complete without admonition from Ellen White. Following two pages of James White and two pages of 1844/Investigative Judgment, the reader should be in the mood for a little Ellen White -- two more pages, to be exact. This section, entitled "Spirit of Prophecy -- The Great Sympathetic Nerve of the Church" is a reprint of Ellen White's material from the February 13, 1901 edition of the Signs of the Times. For anyone that has forgotten, "Adventist World" reminds the reader that "Seventh-day Adventists believe that Ellen G. White exercised the biblical gift of prophecy during more than 70 years of public ministry. Are you ready to come up for air? The next full page (!) addresses "What is the Continual?", in reference to the term used in Daniel 8. are you sick of the 1844 and the Investigative Judgment yet? I hope not! The next two(!) pages covers "Sanctuary Shadows" by Mark A. Finley. It states, "This month we will study important lessons for our lives today from the sacrifices in the ancient Hebrew sanctuary." Be sure to file this "lesson" away. Next month's will be "Jesus: Our Compassionate High Priest." The next four pages consist of three pages of reader's letters, and one page about "properly managing time." The back cover consists of two full page color ads, one for ACTS Disaster Response and the outside back cover devoted to "Claiming the Kingdom." And there you have it -- "August 2007 Adventist World" As Colleen so aptly puts it, "It gives me a real tired feeling." Gilbert Jorgensen (Message edited by jorgfe on August 09, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6510 Registered: 12-2003  |
Thank you, Gilbert. Just this afternoon Richard said to me, "We need to start a thread on the forum where we post current statements from the Adventist church and from Adventnists we hear speaking/writing—just so people 'out there' realize that the church is really not becoming a truly Christian church in spite of people's attempts to sound 'grace-based'." There are many people who try to insist the church is not "monolithic", that there are branches and groups within it that are truly believing the real gospel of grace. But none of that face-saving talk means real change. Your review of Adventist World has emphasized this fact. Just to add to this theme: about a month ago I caught the LLU Church Sabbath School on the internet. The lesson commentary was delivered by Cheryl McMillan, a local family counselor who used to be a senior pastor of the Victoria Church in Loma Linda. Cheryl is the one who, about thirteen years ago, led an Adventist women's discussion group which I visited with a friend where the topic was that the cross is a symbol of divine child abuse and women need a better symbol than a cross. No woman, the argument went, would ever have sacrificed her child as God did. We need to leave behind that abusive cross and embrace something like the empty tomb, for example. In the Sabbath School lesson I heard, she was talking about Abraham. She made the statement that Abraham never saw Sarah again after the Mt Moriah experience where he offered Isaac. Her "proof" was that she wasn't mentioned again in the story until her death, and her death occurred in a location about 20 miles from where Abraham live. Genesis records that Abraham went there for her burial. Her argument from silence expanded. Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac, she said, divided the family. It drove Sarah away, and she said that, according to one Jewish tradition, Isaac may have gone to live with Ishmael after that Mt Moriah fiasco, leaving Abraham behind as did Sarah also. She further went on to say, Could it have been possible that Abraham misunderstood what God was really telling him to do? Might he have been over-zealous and took matters into his own hand, misunderstanding a good God and nearly killing his son in the process? But whatever we think went on in Abraham's head, God's will is for families to be happy. He wants us, she said, to find ways to place God in our lives in a way that unites families instead of dividing them. I was in shock—but as Richard said afterward, if she gets rid of the cross and substitutionary atonement, she would also have to get rid of the Biblical shadows of Jesus and the cross as well. This Sabbath School lesson occurred, as I said, in the LLU Church which seems to pride itself, in the past few years, on being "gospel-centered". Yes, there's that old familiar tired feeling...no matter how much they "change", they are not embracing the true gospel and the sufficiency of Jesus alone. And no, I'm not trying to be hostile to Adventists. But as Judy Robertson, the co-founder of the ex-Mormon ministry Concerned Christians says, if we don't correctly identify the problem, we have no real power to counteract it. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4123 Registered: 3-2004  |
I cannot do anything but shake my head at what I have read here. What I have read here is all the more reason to pray for our SDA brothers and sisters during our prayer circles every weekend. God is hearing our prayers and answering them. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 954 Registered: 10-2002  |
I had a good friend who was a member of LLUC who told told me with great interest of how one author or speaker he heard -- the person was essentially urging people to move beyond grace. Being a generally progressive (though not in name) Adventist, my friend and his friends did truly attempt to be more grace & love focused -- as far as they knew, gospel-centered. But in Adventism there is a feeling like those things are elementary, like "yeah, we understand that." So my friend and his friends kind of wanted to move beyond grace. This is what happens when the Gospel doesn't have a complete monopoly on the roots of the house. The Gospel---Christ---is meant to be THE root and THE foundation. And when it is THE root & foundation, He becomes the Alpha and the Omega of the church's existence. She finds her fullness in Him and can't get enough of Him. Knowing Him as her complete root, she also grasps faintly but irresistibly that He is her complete fulfillment, object and goal. She understands that all the mysteries of the universe are contained in Him, and all of the fullness of God is in Him, and that forever and ever in eternity her robe will be the one He gave her freely in His grace -- His blood will be the foundation and song of her eternity. But when the Gospel is not the sole root and foundation, it just isn't fulfilling. When it's a part or component, an element of the whole picture of truth (instead of THE truth itself), then it's easy to feel like, "Oh yeah, I got it. What next?" I think that's why in 'progressive' churches there must necessarily be people who are fond of reading odd things into Scripture that really go far beyond what is written, arriving at conclusions that even contradict Scripture. The Gospel to them is elementary and (in their mind) already understood. These things are the "deeper" things. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 955 Registered: 10-2002 |
I think now, looking at what I typed, one of the major problems with modern Adventism is that the Gospel is seen as a component or part of the whole truth instead of the whole truth itself and itself the message of the Bible. In all types of Adventism there is a commonly understood tension between "law and grace" or "law and gospel". Grace/Gospel is one part, but is incomplete without Law (to modern Adventists). Instead of seeing that the whole Law pointed to the Gospel, the Gospel/grace is relegated to being a "part" of the truth. This would be a major root-reason that it is easy for attempted-gospel-centered Adventists to get bored of the gospel. | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 67 Registered: 6-2007 |
In the article about the baptisms in Madagascar they say: "And at the core is the Bible—they’re so into it!” Does anyone really think that these thousand plus people who were baptized were taught all about EGW, the IJ, diet/health? No way! They probably were taught only from the Bible and quickly baptized 3 days later. It makes me furious. Laurie | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1261 Registered: 9-2006  |
Well, I say pretty much Amen to that Ramone and good morning to you and yours. As I read this thread and the title of the thread the thoughts it brings to my mind in consideration of the “progressive” Adventist groups is this. Does a little truth mixed in with false teaching produce Christianity? Or as was put in an earlier discussion “A church with cult like tendencies”. A little of this and a little of that, how do we make sense of this confusion? We dare not call it a “Christian-cult” to use your preference Ramone, although I prefer the word “cult” period, but that is just our complex differences in a play on words isn’t it Ramone? Oh, don’t call it “cult” at all, call it a “Church” with cult like tendencies. There now, we’ll just slap that nice clean band-aid over that big old scab and pretty soon it will be good as new. Not to get into that tired argument again so soon, but what I want to get to here is Gilberts “Reality check”. If I mix flour, water, and eggs to a motor oil base can I bake a cake? Ladies, try serving that to your tired husbands to find favor! Oh? That won’t work? What if you add a little more flour and egg’s and perhaps a dash of cinnamon will that make him happy? No? Why not, we have used some of the ingredients of a cake after all! If I take a false church, based on false principles and add just a little truth will that produce Christianity do you think? No? Well, what if I add a little more truth to the mix? You know, get “progressive”, add just a pinch of grace to cover up the smell there, yep, that should do it, perfect, stir that right in there, now we’re cookin! Don’t sound like it will work? Well, maybe I should just take Gilberts advice and just give myself a “reality check”. River P.S. By the way and I quote : ”Could it have been possible that Abraham misunderstood what God was really telling him to do?” In all my time I have never heard the words “could it be possible” used so much as I have heard the words used amongst my Adventist acquaintances. I really do think they hold the world’s record in the use of the phrase “could it be possible” I think I need to submit this phrase to Guinness book of world records. Every time I hear them start off with that phrase, it sets my factory built in burglar alarm off! Buurrriit! Burriit! Whank! Whank! Whank! Reminds me of the burglar alarm I used to have in my car, it was a close proximity alarm and when someone came within two feet of the car a loud voice would say “STEP AWAY FROM THE CAR!” It’s got to be kinda like that with Adventist every time they come near me. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 551 Registered: 11-2005 |
River, that is an excellent anology! Adventistm keeps trying to re-invent itself. It takes more than putting on a "new set of clothes." Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Luzisbornagain Registered user Username: Luzisbornagain Post Number: 84 Registered: 7-2007 |
This thread is appalling to me. I can't believe I read these quotes from so-called adventist christians ”Could it have been possible that Abraham misunderstood what God was really telling him to do?” and " No woman, the argument went, would ever have sacrificed her child as God did. We need to leave behind that abusive cross and embrace something like the empty tomb, for example." Can I say this is a direct attack to the gospel of Jesus? Let them be accursed who preaches another gospel - Paul | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 553 Registered: 11-2005 |
Luz, that is why (in my opinion) the term "Adventist" + "Christian" is an oxymoron. It makes as much sense as their concept that a dead person without any spirt is "awaiting the resurrection" of a completely different "body". It makes my head hurt to try to follow their strained logic. The further away I get from Adventism the more I wonder how any intelligent person could possibly believe such garbage. It is no wonder that after 160 years Seventh-day Adventism has not found a single non-Adventist theologian they can convert to their mythical 1844/Investigative Judgment core doctrine. Not one! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 525 Registered: 5-2007 |
Adventists have perfected circular reasoning to an art form, Gilbert. Adventism is totally devoid of logic. I am sitting here in wonder as to HOW I could've believed it at one time. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1263 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well, it might be easier to understand, lets just get into the old Adventist noodle here a little bit. I am DOING something to find favor with God, I am attending SABBATH church along with others, and paying attention to eat and drink. Surely I will find favor; after all don't we have the SABBATH? I am part of an elite group, the remnant "Church", I will surely find favor, after all aren't I doing the best I can to do at least most of what the church says? Well, there is that pesky cognitive dissonance that keeps trying to make its way into my mind, but no, I can’t be wrong, that would mean my whole church group is wrong and look how many there are of us, I’ll just have to push that out of the way. Besides, I am DOING something to assure that God favors me, after all, I have the SABBATH and look at the rest of them Protestants, aren’t they the false church who followed after the Catholics and changed the SABBATH to Sunday and my God, look at the Catholics, they are the very scourge of the earth, if it wasn’t for them those other protestants would have the SABBATH, but at least its fortunate for me that we have the SABBATH and I am DOING something because I attend SABBATH worship. Well there has been questions raised about our dear sister Ellen, but after all isn’t she the Spirit of prophecy? And besides we have the SABBATH, I mean if it wasn’t for the SABBATH, I might have to take another look, but we do have the SABBATH and that’s that so even without Ellen we still have the SABBATH so I think I’ll just turn in, tomorrow is Sunday and I have to mow the lawn and it has been a rather busy SABBATH, I had to stop and fill up the car, then there was church, something about the last days and it got rather long, then we went to lunch at the restaurant, then uncle Ed and aunt Nelle came over and we walked to the lake and sat and looked at the water and all the heathen out there swimming like it wasn’t even the SABBATH, then back home, I could barely keep awake, I think I will just lay here on the couch, its almost sundown and SABBATH will be over, ho hum, oh, this feels so good….SABBATH…Sabbath…..sabbath, my goodness, its 11:30 I better get up and go on to bed. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6512 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ramone, great insights. And River, you're right about the "Adventist noodle". I remember having thought patterns very similar to the ones you wrote above. I love the burglar alarm going off with those words, "Could it be possible..." So true. It is confusion—odd, isn't it, that Babylon means confusion--and the historic SDA cry is to "Come out of Babylon and become part of the Remnant Church..." Well, we're coming out! Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 555 Registered: 11-2005 |
River, you are hilarious! But it is so true. They "have" the Sabbath, but no idea how one keeps or breaks it. Furthermore, they certainly don't keep it the way Sister Ellen says it is to be kept! What would they have to do to "break" the Sabbath so that their church would discipline them? And on another subject -- what happened to the reform dress that Ellen says God showed her all women should wear? The one that she sold patterns for $1 each ($20 today) for? http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw25.htm http://www.ellenwhite.org/canright/can19.htm http://www.truthorfables.com/The_Desirer_of_Wages.htm
Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 958 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi River (and good morning -- it still is over here anyway for another hour)! The term "Christian-cult" is preferable for SDA/JW/LDS simply because they *seem* Christian to non-Christians. As I've said before, I live in Japan where there are more than a multitude of cults which do not resemble Christianity in the slightest. The term "Christian-cult" would fit Adventism in the sense that it *resembles* Christianity (even though in the truest sense the term ought to be an oxymoron). But among cults there are different types of cults -- some come from nowhere out of the blue (Tenrikyo), while some are similar to Buddhism (Sokkagakkai) and others are similar to Hinduism (Hare Krishna), and others are similar to Christianity (SDA, JW, LDS), etc. Hope that explains. Blessings to you today bro! Ramone | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1265 Registered: 9-2006 |
Ramone, Very well understood. Now lets see, if it was 5:00 am here and 11:00 am over there, you should be getting this pretty soon. I got to get me one of those world clock programs. River | ||
| Ikilgore Registered user Username: Ikilgore Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2006 |
Aloha Guys! Everything mentioned is really important. The scariest part of the deal is the part when they mention listening to the Desire of Ages on an iPod!!! I have Johnny Cash reading the Bible on my Zune. Beat that you Adventist freaks! I can't believe that someone would waste the time to put the Desire of Ages onto an iPod. That is the scariest part of the whole article. If you want to get people saved you need to get people to listen to the Bible on thier MP3 players and not have them listening to the trash that that one guy was listening to. EGW never saved anyone. The only person who can is Jesus Christ. That's the bottom line. | ||
| Sara Registered user Username: Sara Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2007 |
Wow Gilbert, thanks for that revealing summary! Its incredible the focus given Ellen White et.al. I pray this helps to separate the flock even more. I pray someone in particular reading your summary today can see the true movement of the SDA chuch, back to its "roots". While they make no attempt to hide this fact at the top, the members at large, at least the ones I know in the US, continue to maintain that SDA is becomming more gospel based, despite hard evidence to the contrary such as you have provided. Jesus, wake up Your own, open their eyes, and bring them to Your complete rest and the cross alone. Let today be the day the veil is removed, and someone can see You clearly. Diana, God is calling people out of Adventism in great numbers, you are so faithful to pray! Aloha back Ikilgore, wish I was there. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 874 Registered: 1-2003 |
Has anyone ever heard of Amelia Bloomer? SHE is the one who started dress reform...not Ellen. Ellen only profited from it because she stole it from Amelia Bloomer. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 875 Registered: 1-2003 |
Here is the real scoop! Ellen never had an original idea-ever! In 1849, Bloomer began publication of The Lily, a monthly temperance paper. The paper soon became a voice for Stanton and other advocates of women's interests. The paper became an active voice for change in women's dress, and the abandonment of restrictive clothing in favor of shorter skirts and knee-length undergarments that came to be known as Bloomers. (The outfit was actually designed by Elizabeth Smith Miller, daughter of Stanton's Cousin Gerrit Smith). |
