| Author | Message | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 282 Registered: 7-2005  |
Colleen...your typo is very appropriate... Slavation is about being good. Salvation is about being saved by Jesus blood. Honestwitness | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1198 Registered: 9-2006  |
quote:It is merely a reduced state of consciousness. I am not even sure we are in a reduced state of consciousness, it may very well be that our realizations are a lot more real than we are alive and in the body. Jesus said that "he sleeps" Dead, he did not indicate the condition of the living spirit. His body was dead, period. River | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 114 Registered: 4-2007 |
The idea of soul sleep influencing everything is I think, very valid. In Adventist thought, God has form. We are bodies and minds when we are alive, then when we die, we are dust, the breath (which has no consciousness apart from the body) is gone and we are simply dead. Heaven is a place in our physical universe, Orion. There are people in this universe on other planets. After Jesus comes, we will be able to visit them (does anyone remember stories about fantastical planets perfect for skiing, camping, like planet sized resorts and zoos?) There is no underworld, no hell, the wicked will be burned up at the last judgment, which will happen at a physical point in space in our physical universe. The Trinity is a muddy concept which is badly taught even when people mean well because of all this concrete thinking. The Trinity simply cannot be approached with such limited boundaries. I remember at SAC when I was there that short time, I noticed right away in class discussion that people seemed to have difficulty with abstract thinking. Their thought processes were very concrete. When asked by the professor to speculate about the meaning of a greek passage (not from the NT) which we were translating as an exercise, they focused on the factual content, and had a great deal of difficulty in moving their discussion to what the author might have meant by his symbolism and word plays. One phrase was that women were 'plucking their heads' because they were distressed. Then of course the hero showed up and saw his beloved as beautiful. I remember the class couldn't move past the idea that she wouldn't have been beautiful anymore with her hair pulled out.... *sigh* That of course was not the point of the greek playwright. It is an example of very concrete thought processes. Theological ideas seem to have the same concreteness. The state of the dead has some puzzles. One reason for so much discussion on the topic is there does seem to be some support for both positions. Part of the resolution of this 'tension' to borrow a term from this forum, to me is remembering that God, heaven, eternity, are things OUTSIDE of time as we understand it. Heaven is not a resort tucked inside the orion nebula. I don't know how we can be "present with the Lord" as St. Paul says, when we are absent from our body. I know our body will be raised again in a bodily, physical resurrection. That is also clear Christian teaching. Does it seem a little bit contradictory and difficult to understand, yes, absolutely. That doesn't mean its not so.... God doesn't fit into our little mental constructs. I don't know if soul sleep is the cause of all this concrete thinking, or the result of it. MarysRoses | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1199 Registered: 9-2006 |
I think your idea of a reduced state of consciousness is just a leftover shadow from being an Adventist. If not, where is it in the Bible that the spirits of dead people is in a reduced state of consciousness Jeremy old bean. River P.S. Of course from the way we act in this life I might be persuaded to believe that, there are some in a reduced state of consciousness fer sure.  | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1200 Registered: 9-2006 |
For Adventist soul sleep is real Marysroses, they are living in it. Their soul is asleep to the Gospel fer sure. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2005 Registered: 10-2004  |
River, No, no, no. You misunderstood what I was saying--I wasn't clear enough. I was NOT saying that when we die, it is a reduced state of consciousness. I was talking about ordinary physical, nightly sleep being a reduced state of consciousness. I totally agree with you. I hope that clears it up for ya (and anyone else who may have been confused)! Sorry for the confusion. I totally agree with you, that to say that death is a reduced state of consciousness would be "a leftover shadow from being an Adventist." I also agree with you that it will be more like waking up and entering reality, when we die! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 31, 2007) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2006 Registered: 10-2004 |
Just for further clarification, when the Bible talks about death as "sleep" it is using it as a metaphor to talk about our dead bodies, which will be raised incorruptible and in the meantime are just "sleeping" (metaphorically) until the resurrection. But our spirits are very much alive and fully conscious and with Christ when we are dead and awaiting the resurrection of our bodies. In Adventism, however, they say that the entire person is "asleep" in the grave. They also argue that when a person is "asleep" (ordinary, nightly sleep), they can't praise God and they are unconscious--and that that is what death is like. However, even those claims about ordinary sleep are not true. God can communicate to people in dreams (they themselves even say that it happened to EGW!), and people can praise God while asleep. And--and this is what I was trying to point out above--people are not unconscious during ordinary, nightly sleep (even that is merely a reduced state of consciousness). So the SDAs' arguments are faulty. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 31, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1201 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jeremy, OH!!!! I probably just miss read it anyhow Jeremy, I start gettin cross eyed about this time a day anyhow, so don't mind me, I get up at 4:00 am. Actually you might say that I am in a reduced state of consciousness right now! Ha. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1202 Registered: 9-2006 |
One time I had a dead guy and his eyes of course were wide open, I thought a lot of the guy and had sat with him till he passed on so I was just sitting there alone with him, he was a good Christian brother and I just sat there and thought about his life. So I thought, I want to close his eyes for him so I reached out to close his eyes and when my hand came in contact with his eyes his lungs expelled a gush of air and it scared the living doodly out of me. No matter how many times that happens I am never ready for it. River | ||
| Burntoutdentist Registered user Username: Burntoutdentist Post Number: 9 Registered: 6-2007 |
Lets face it, none of us really knows, Marysroses is right, there will always be tension between the different views. In the end I don't think it matters, we will all find out soon enough. Somethings one just has to leave unsolved. Peter (Message edited by burntoutDentist on August 01, 2007) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 717 Registered: 6-2006  |
I have a question. Do Adventists believe that Jesus' spirit ceased to exist when he died and was in the tomb? I've asked my husband that and he couldn't answer me. Is there and official position? Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6446 Registered: 12-2003  |
Leigh Anne, Adventists can't really answer this question because they don't belileve in a human spirit. They believe that we are "body + breath = living soul." Therefore, they believe that there is nothing left, when the body dies, to go to God except our breath and the memory of our personalities and characters. God essentially holds us in His memory when we are dead, and at the resurrection He brings forth a glorified body, gives it breath, and somehow infuses into it the essence of us which did not literally exist during death but remained in God's memory. Because Jesus was fully human as we are, they believe, He was no different during death than we. They are confused by your question, Leigh Anne, because the Bible says He committed His Spirit to the Lord, but they don't understand that literally. He committed Himself to the Lord, trusting God to take his literal breath and keep his personality in His memory, The issue of soul sleep is a profound underlying heresy as it is taught by Adventists. It alters the nature of man and the nature of Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 170 Registered: 5-2007 |
Coleen, What is the definition of Soul or Spirit as refering to teh individual? I assume you are suggesting some form of continous awareness after death. I consider the fact that if you are drugged or alcohol induced your are affected spiritually. If you are retarded, same deal. Thus, if you die intoxicated or retarded, do you stay that way till resurection? How are we building these soul awareness constructs. Where are we getting this theory? | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 719 Registered: 6-2006 |
Thanks Colleen. If Jesus ever did cease to exist, then he couldn't be God. Almost like they belive he's more human than God. I have another question, do Adventists belive that evil spirits are just memories? If there are evil spirits, then there aught to be is a spirit world. Do Adventists believe there is a spirit world? Leigh Anne | ||
| Zjason Registered user Username: Zjason Post Number: 67 Registered: 11-2005  |
That brought to mind this thought. If I brought up the question "what happened to Jesus' soul when He died?" Another question could be asked by him, "Why did Jesus say He had not yet ascended to the Father?-so where did His soul go?" Not that it matters to me where His soul was after He died. Looking for your thoughts... Jason | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 506 Registered: 11-2005 |
In the book, "Seventh-day Adventists Believe", page 352, it says
That statement doesn't even make any sense. What is "incomplete annihilation"? To say, "the person awaits the resurrection" is equally disingenuous. What "person"? What, actually is awaiting the resurrection? Awaiting implies anticipation. Anticipation is a function of consciousness requiring a conscious existence. Both are impossible during death according to SDA doctrine. No one and no thing dead "awaits" the resurrection. According to SDA doctrine, how does a dead person exist? And if they don't exist, then the resurrection can have nothing to do with any person who has lived and died, but is the creation of another being altogether. Furthermore there can be no such thing as "eternal life" for all persons who die. No other persons created in the image of the formerly living, even the exact same image, can bring them back. Ellen White, in Great Controversy, page 588, also states that "immortality of the soul" is one of the "two great errors ... Satan will bring the people under his deceptions." How then can Seventh-day Adventism even have a resurrection? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 171 Registered: 5-2007 |
The theory that suggests God holds the memory of the individual is often portrayed as a stretch of the imagination. However, I find it entirely plausible and more logical in view of the abscence of scripture to suggest otherwise. I would think that 100% recall accuracy would be easily within God's capacity. Simply by looking at the design complexity of nature, I know that God has no problem with technical details. The idea that God holds all facets of our being in His keeping does not worry me at all. The idea of non-activated, standby mode,or suspended existance does not create a problem for me. Instant off/ instant on. What's the problem? So far the arguments I have seen against this position have not held merit (IMO) because they ignore or redefine the meaning of plain scripture. Ecc 9: 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun. Ultimately, I do not find enough contiguous or cumlative scripture to establish proof either way. The preponderance of evidence? Inference to Continuity is the "exception" rather than the rule. Prohibition against "Familiars" is an established safety. I think the idea of continuity of the soul after death has a lot to do with a comfort thought about our loved ones. I find comfort in also suspension of activity, in the blink of the eye regarding the passing of time. IMO, there is greater danger in listening to messages from the departed than in believing in suspended existance after death. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 720 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jason, the Bible says that Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison - 1 Peter 3:18-20 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[a] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water Jesus was not only conscious, he was busy working! Leigh Anne | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 721 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jim, good to see you again! Ecc 9: 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. I understand that to mean that they know nothing as far as what is happening in the physical living world. If they are either in the prison Sheol, or Paradise then they have no need to know what is happening in the earthly realm. And dead people get forgotten by living people all the time. Just my understanding. I can see where those verses do not contradict what Peter or Paul wrote. In fact, when we die, Jesus said we HAVE eternal life. (Not "are going to" have someday when we're turned back "on") We live forever. What we have in our spirits that responds to the Holy Spirit lives on, and our earthly tents are what passes away. Leigh Anne | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 99 Registered: 7-2007 |
I'm not sure which way to believe concerning "soul sleep." This is one subject that I'm holding in "tension" as River puts it. On the one hand is Eccl. 9:5,6; though the last part of verse 6 has the phrase "under the sun" which may explain that. On the other hand is the apostle Paul (in Philippians 1:21-24 also see 2 Corinthians 5:1-8) agonizing over the fact that he would like to "depart and be with Christ," but that it would be better for the people that he's ministering to, to "remain in the flesh." Dianne |
