| Author | Message | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 306 Registered: 11-2005 |
I'm not sure if this has already been discussed (I couldn't find it when I ran a search). I just heard about this new "documentary play" that has been on tour since this spring. It will be hitting the Southern CA area this fall. Here is some info on it: http://www.puc.edu/PUC/newsevents/news/2007/20070227_redbooks.shtml http://www.kqed.org/arts/performance/index.jsp?id=14543 Interesting... Grace | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 307 Registered: 11-2005 |
Here's another review on the play: http://www.spectrummagazine.org/onlinecommunity/reviews/070425zytkoskee.html Grace | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 464 Registered: 11-2005 |
Her earlier books were black. I guess it wouldn't sound right though to call them the "Little Black Books". Here in Salt Lake City, the Mormons pump out a continuous stream of videos, etc., for the "Saints". These include titles like, "The Work and The Glory". It is a way of keeping the church history (and mythology) "alive". Sounds like Adventists are doing a similar thing. When I went to Andrews University Academy, Ellen White's books were referred to as the "Little Read Books". They also gave us a presentation from the pulpit at Pioneer Memorial Church one Sabbath on the proper order in which to stack her books -- complete with demonstration. They said that the Bible always goes on top, her books come next, and anything else goes underneath that. Gilbert Jorgensen (Message edited by jorgfe on July 27, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6404 Registered: 12-2003  |
My goodness! Come to think of it, Gilbert, I think I heard that about "stacking order" when I was young, too, but I hadn't thought about it in years. Grace, I had read a bit about that play on a progressive Advenitst blog a few months ago. Reading the reactions as well as some of the information about the play left me with the impression that it was coming from that "place" of simultaneously resenting Ellen White and loving her as a sort of icon of their identity. It's a tough job both to "normalize" her and to respect her authority at the same time. Cognitive dissonance.... Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1986 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yes, I was definitely taught not to put anything other than a Bible on top of Ellen's "sacred" books. If I think about it anymore I might have to puke... Jeremy | ||
| Treasurehntr Registered user Username: Treasurehntr Post Number: 26 Registered: 7-2007 |
After read Dennis Fisher's story, the "Little Red Books" go on the bottom of the dumpster and everything else on top it them. I think I might keep my three volume spirit of prophecy set as a Former Adventist apologetics aid, the rest can burn courtesy of the city waste dept. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2007 |
Like top crime fighters, we choose to archive all the egw pulp we own as evidence against them. Take note that these books will not occupy any premium real estate in the bookshelves, rather they will be relegated to cardboard "evidence boxes"! | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 473 Registered: 11-2005 |
Larry, Same here. I have over 8 feet of her material packed into small space. That allows me to draw from them when I want to look something up from a hardcopy to physically show someone. I used to take my red-back Early Writings to church each week and ask people the meaning of pages 56-57 where she talks about the Father and Son having "movable thrones" in the Heavenly Sanctuary. You should see the look on people's faces when the read the part about Satan entering the Holy place to answer prayers, when Jesus goes to the Most Holy Place in 1844. I ask them, "Wasn't Satan banned from heaven after Jesus died on the cross?" Most Adventists don't know their Bibles, and they find the idea of Satan in the Holy Place of a physical Heavenly Sanctuary to be preposterous! It serves as a good conversation starter. You could do the same thing by just perpetually hauling around an original edition of Great Controversy like the Mormons do their Book of Mormon. Point to the quote about the Seal of God, and ask them what the Bible says the Seal of God is. It's also fun to haul EGW books to church. It makes those types who want to see her disappear get even more vocal. Also, quoting from her (with physical book in hand) in Sabbath School class produces amusing results, where many people tire of her more quickly. It's great! Currently I don't attend the SDA Church at all, and won't for some time to come because of the negative influence on my wife and son. This was a good strategy though, when I did attend. It IS fun to get people to actually think. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 706 Registered: 6-2006  |
Grace, when I first started dating my husband, I visited his church regularly. Early early on, they had a play during sermon time about the great disappointment. This crazy little lady played EGW and just acted like a total psycho in my opinion. I thought the whole act was rediculous! In looking back, I'm so thankful they had that play because it showed me how backward the SDA church is. It convinced me not to become active - EVER! Hopefully these new plays will have the same effect on any regular Christian out there who has the misfortune of having to sit through them.  Leigh Anne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1170 Registered: 9-2006  |
I can just see Gilbert now, walking in the church door pulling his Western Flyer wagon all loaded down with E.G.W Books, books sliding of the top and young Gilbert with and impish grin. On the out side pew sits two old men in drab black suits, one says two the other ”I thought we got rid of him for good, but here he comes again.” E.G.W is not the only one that has visions. Toothless men in drab black suit, haggeldy women in gray dress and buns. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6413 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Gilbert--that idea of Satan taking Jesus' place on the throne in the Holy Place in heaven after He completes the IJ isn't really well-known. The interesting thing, though, is that the effect of that teaching permeates people's subconsious fears. They believe that if they stray from Adventist truth, Satan is deceiving them. One of the fears I had--a fear which I hear echoed from many others as well--is that as Adventists discover the true gospel and become convinced they have to make a decision about following Jesus or remaining a loyal Adventist, they fear that Satan is deceiving them. They have a deep fear--almost a conviction--that their joy in discovering the gospel is actually Satan answering their prayers. They don't really know where that idea comes from--most of them don't actually know Ellen said Satan would answer the prayers of those who didn't pass the IJ--but that idea is part of their "collective Adventist unconscious", if you will. Most Adventists fear that Satan is deceiving them when they begin to see the hope and freedom of the gospel. This is one of the paralyzing ideas that seems to be a common experience among those beginning to come out. Only trust in Jesus, prayer, and staying grounded in Scripture can counteract this deep fear. I know that my very observant, historic in-laws DO know this teaching and believe it. They have often warned us or outright said that things we praise God for in our lives might likely be from "another spirit". I have had moments of standing in my kitchen when they chat with us and feeling a sense of horror that they are actually attributing to Satan the works of God. I feel a bit paralyzed myself, not sure whether to speak out and defend the work of God or just refuse to engage in their provoking comments. That teaching, Gilbert, is powerful, and it colors all Adventists' worldview, even though they may not actually know the specific writing of Ellen that spawned it. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4060 Registered: 3-2004  |
Although I had read about Satan hearing our prayers and answering them, I forgot it. When Jesus called me out of adventism, I had such a piece of mind and heart and such joy, it was indescribable. Nothing can take that from me. Diana | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 474 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen,
According to Early Writings, p 56-57, doesn't this occur when He gets into His chariot and rides from the Holy to the Most Holy Place? Then she says that Satan enters into the Holy Place where Jesus just left, and answers the prayers of those that are still praying to the Holy Place? According to SDA theology this would occur when he starts the Investigative Judgement in 1844, wouldn't it?
Suppose that a person's name had not yet come up for review in the Investigative Judgment, but was on the list of those that would be reviewed. Also, isn't the Investigative Judgment only of those who are good? And the wicked are all judged in the final judgment? The funny thing is, if only the "good" are "judged" in the Investigative Judgment, why even have it -- especially since they are judged in absentia? Also, if the prayer is being handled via the Holy Spirit (see Romans 8:26), why would He direct it to the wrong place? Also of interest is Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25; 1 Jn. 2:1; Jn. 14:16, 17. Perhaps Eduardo, can shed some light on this. He is an expert in this area! <grin> Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 475 Registered: 11-2005 |
It has been 162 Years, 9 Months, and 6 Days since October 22, 1844. Our latest information indicates that a backlog (of good people) to be "investigated" is currently building up! At this rate the Investigative Judgment may never be completed. We now tune into http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw36.htm for the latest update. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 476 Registered: 11-2005 |
That is interesting... She said that the case of Napoleon and Thomas Paine had already been decided -- but perhaps not at the Investigative Judgment? If I remember Clifford Goldstein's instruction is his breathtaking 3Q 2006 Sabbath School Quarterly on 1844 and the Investigative Judgment, Clifford identified that only the good would be judged in the Investigative Judgment. A question we had in Sabbath School class was, "What is the point of it then?" Eduardo to the rescue! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1988 Registered: 10-2004 |
Gilbert, you are correct--according to EGW, Satan started answering the prayers of Christians on October 22, 1844. Also, those who she said this was happening to, were those who rejected the 1843 (!) and 1844 false prophecies. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 28, 2007) | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 478 Registered: 11-2005 |
Oh Jeremy, you are right! I had forgotten that she gave this as part of a rebuke of those who rejected 1843/1844. I do not see how any honest inquiring Adventist can possible still believe in Adventism after studying all of Ellen White's blatently false statements surrounding 1843/1844. The book that really convinced me beyond any doubt was the portion of the excellent book, Cultic Doctrine, that dealt with William Miller and all of Ellen's false statements at the time. There is simply NO way that the White Estate (or Adventists) can deal with these honestly! Cultic Doctrine is a must for any honest (or even former) Adventist who wants to see what Ellen and the early leaders actually said at that time. http://www.ratzlaf.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1001718585
Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 185 Registered: 10-2006 |
I just got my copy of Cultic Doctrine today. It's tough to put down, but I had some "saturday shopping" to do with my wife. I will be ordering more copies soon. I have already shared White-Washed with my pastors at our non-denom church. steve | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 985 Registered: 8-2004  |
Gilbert wrote: "I do not see how any honest inquiring Adventist can possible still believe in Adventism after studying all of Ellen White's blatently false statements surrounding 1843/1844." I have a hard time seeing this also, however I strongly believe that there are "honest inquiring Adventists" who are truly deceived by Ellen's pronouncement that Satan answers the prayers of all who abandon the message. I believe that God can and will bring even these to Himself if they are truly seeking for Him, but to those looking on from the outside they may just look dense and belligerent, perhaps even for years. They need our prayers. Mary | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4061 Registered: 3-2004 |
Mary, I agree with you. It is my personal belief, because of my experience, that God has each of us where He wants us. He knows our hearts and minds and how sincere each of us are. Even those who seem very dense, God is working on. It may take years, but then, every thing is done in God's time and not mine. If it was my time, it would all have happened before I was born, so I would not have to have gone through what I have. Diana |
