| Author | Message | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 642 Registered: 4-2006  |
Hi everybody! Peace and grace from our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ. Found an interesting article: http://www.macgregorministries.org/seventh_day_adventists/Jesusolderbrothers.html Have a nice day and may you live a life pleasing to Him. Martin | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4044 Registered: 3-2004  |
What I learned in SDA schools is that Joseph was married before and that the older brothers were his sons. Another lie I learned brought out into the light. Thanks. Diana | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 695 Registered: 6-2006  |
"What I learned in SDA schools is that Joseph was married before and that the older brothers were his sons." Oh Brother. (eyes rolling) You're kidding! What's the point??  Leigh Anne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4048 Registered: 3-2004 |
I was just confirming what was said on the link that Martin posted with its reply. Diana | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 696 Registered: 6-2006 |
Oh Diana, I wasn't saying "Oh brother" to you. I was saying it to the concept of Joseph being married before, etc. I want to know what the point was of teaching that in SDA schools. I'm sorry. I wasn't directing that at you at all. I love you! Leigh Anne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4051 Registered: 3-2004 |
Leigh Anne, I kind of thought that, but just wanted to make sure. The Bible tells us that we will be known by our love for each other and I am so glad of that because I do love you. Diana | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 32 Registered: 1-2007 |
MWH, What a great article! I vaguely remember hearing it preached way back in church. I never paid much attention to it. The bible tells us that Mary and the brothers came to visit Jesus at a home where he was preaching. The brothers where not mentioned to be older. John 7:5 For even His brothers did not believe him. I wonder if she used this verse to assume that the brothers were older? Gail | ||
| Emr Registered user Username: Emr Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2007 |
It seems to me that Ellen and the pioneers' intent in promoting the idea that Jesus' brothers were Joseph's elder sons was to have these relatives as close as possible to Jesus, just short of claiming that Mary had other children, which would have been very damaging for Catholic claims of Mary's perpetual virginity. The pioneers may not have gone all the way because of the narrative in the fourth Gospel where Mary's care is entrusted to Jesus' 'beloved disciple.' That our Saviour should have asked someone who presumably wasn't a relative of his to take care of his mother is an indication that Mary didn't have other sons who might take care of her in her old age, so the idea that those 'brothers' of Jesus might have been older stepbrothers looks attractive on the surface, apart from being upheld in certain apocryphal Gospels. There is a problem, though. The names of Jesus' so-called brothers (James, Joseph, Simon and Judas), seem at the very least partially coincident with the names of the sons of another Mary, the mother of James and Joses (Matt. 27:56). This Mary was the wife of Cleophas (John 19:25), believed to have been Joseph's brother. If so, of course, Jesus' 'brothers' would have actually been his cousins, which is what the Catholic Church has been claiming for centuries. My personal opinion is that those brothers were actually his cousins. By the way, James and Jude's epistles seem to have been written precisely by these men, not by the apostles with the same names. Be that as it may, Ellen White was wrong. If only her other mistakes were of this minor calibre! Hey! First posting! Blessings to everyone here. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4052 Registered: 3-2004 |
Emr, Welcome to FAF. Tell us more about your journey with Jesus, when you are ready. You have joined a big family now. I hope you are used to that. WE truly do have an awesome God. Diana | ||
| Emr Registered user Username: Emr Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2007 |
Thank you, Diana, I know that. I'm 51 and live in Spain. I first got in touch with SDAism when I was 17. I was so impressed by its teachings at the time, ignorant me, that I seriously entertained the notion of becoming a minister. While I was finishing my theology studies in SDA seminaries, I even got to teach in two SDA Colleges in Europe. While completing an MA in Theology, as a result of personal study, I came to the conclusion that the whole of SDA theology was fatally flawed, being based on the 1844 egregious error. I silently quit my denominational employment. Given my theological training at SDA Colleges, let's say that I know reasonably well the way Adventist apologists reason, and I've been known to ask quite a few incisive questions no-one seems to be rushing in to answer. Eduardo | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4054 Registered: 3-2004 |
Emr, I saw your post on the Spanish section and your use of the Spanish language. It does my heart so much good to see the Spanish speaking people leaving adventism. My Spanish is not that good as it is not my first language. God had a reason for having us where He had us in adventism. For me, it was to understand adventism and know from where they come. I am so glad you found FAF where we can compare our journey out and more importantly our current journey with Jesus Christ. We do have an awesome God. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6399 Registered: 12-2003  |
Welcome, Eduardo! We're happy you're here. Interesting discussion re: Jesus' brothers. The argument about Jesus having no other brother who would care for Mary is compelling, but there are some other compelling arguments, too, which I'm sure you know. Just for the sake of sharing with everyone else, the NIV Study Bible has this statement about James: "The author identifies himself as James (1:1); he was probably the brother of Jesus and leader of the Jerusalem council (Ac 15). Four men in the NT have this name. The author of this letter could not have been the apostle James, who died too early (AD 44) tohav written it. The other two men named James had neither the stature nor the influence that the writer of this letter had. "James was one of several brothers of Christ, probably the oldest since he heads the list in Mt 13:55. At first he did not believe in Jesus and even challenged him and misunderstood his mission (Jn 7:2-5). Later he became very prominent in the church: "1. He was one of the select individuals Christ appeaered to after his resurrection (see 1 Co 15:7 and note). "2. Paul called him a "pillar" of the church (Gal. 2:9). "3. Paul, on his first post-conversion visit to Jerusalem, saw James (Gal 1:19). "4. Paul did the same on his last visit (Ac 21:18). "5. Whjen Peter was rescued from prison, he told his friends to tell James (Ac 12:17). "6. James was a leader in the important council of Jerusalem (Ac 15:13). "7. Jude could identify himself simply as "a brother of James" (Jude 1:1), so well known was James. He was martyred c. AD 62." Of course, these facts don't preclude the possibility that James (and Jude) were Jesus' cousins. The apostles James and John were also possibly Jesus' cousins, the children of Mary's sister. Also, John the Baptist was a family member as well. There were a lot of relatives within Jesus' circle of ministry! Again, welcome to the forum--we're glad you're here! Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 697 Registered: 6-2006 |
I wonder if anyone knows what the Greek term of the word "brother" is? Would that matter? Welcome Eduardo! Your English is perfect - are you originally from Spain? Leigh Anne | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 175 Registered: 2-2003 |
Here is an excerpt from a sermon by John MacArthur about Jesus's brothers: Luke is careful to tell us that she gave birth to her firstborn son, prototokon, firstborn. He does not use monogenes, only son. The Roman Catholic Church would have you believe she had only one child and she was a perpetual virgin till her death. That is not true. She had many sons and daughters. It says, I read you a little bit ago in Matthew 1:24 and 25 that he kept her a virgin until Jesus was born. After that Joseph and Mary had normal relationships as any other husband and wife would and they had boys and they had girls. In Matthew's gospel chapter 12 we are introduced to Jesus' brothers. In chapter 13 they're even named for us. Jesus' brothers who were born to Joseph and Mary, half brothers actually, James, Joseph, Simon, Judas. Verse 56, and His sisters are mentioned as well. You know, the crowd at that point was incredulous. They were saying...You know, Jesus...this is nobody special. They said...This is just a carpenter's son. His mother is Mary, His brothers are James and Joseph and Simon and Judas, and His sisters, they're all with us. They just looked at that family as an ordinary family. They've got a whole family full of kids. We meet His brothers again later on. Luke records their appearance in chapter 8. We read about His brothers in John 2, John 7, that they didn't believe. We read about His brothers again in Acts 1. Jesus was not the only son Mary had, Jesus was not the monogenes, the only begotten, He was prototokon, the firstborn. Here's the link to the rest of the message: http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/42-23.htm He also mentions this view on the brothers of Jesus in his book "The truth war : fighting for certainty in an age of deception." I enjoyed the book even though I disagree with his cessationist view of the gift of tongues. [It was about 6 years ago on the Macgregor Ministries site that I first heard that Adventists were considered a cult. (I led a sheltered, Adventist life) I was researching ways to witness to Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons when I found Macgregor Ministries. When I saw that SDA's were listed with the other cults, I was appalled. I was determined to prove them wrong, but the Lord had other plans for me. I thank the Lord for removing the veil and pulling me out of Adventism.] | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 176 Registered: 2-2003 |
I forgot to add that I too was taught in SDA schools that Joseph was married before and had older sons. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1984 Registered: 10-2004  |
Leigh Anne, here is the Greek word used for Jesus' brothers in Matthew 13:55: http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G80&Version=kjv It looks to me like it does indeed mean brothers. Thanks for the MacArthur quote, Leigh! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 26, 2007) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 699 Registered: 6-2006 |
Thanks Jeremy! I always forget about that site. It's in my favorites now. Leigh Anne I've never heard of the idea of Joseph being married before. It reminds me of the Mormon teaching that Jesus was married to Mary and Martha! Kind of out of left field, huh?! | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 460 Registered: 11-2005 |
Point #3 in Verl Striefling's response is actually not correct. He states
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibling A full sibling (full brother or full sister), is a sibling that shares both biological or adoptive parents. A half sibling (half brother or half sister) is a sibling with one shared biological or adoptive parent. A step sibling (step brother or step sister) is a sibling with whom an individual bears no blood or equivalent adoptive relation, and is related by the marriage or relationship of one parent of the individual to one parent of the sibling; So as we see here, a step sibling is not a brother or sister who share a common parent. That is a half sibling (eg half-brother or half-sister)! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 461 Registered: 11-2005 |
Eduardo, It is great to see you here. I have always been in awe of your very logical reasoning process! You will be a delightful addition here. I am eagerly looking forward to your posts. Your material at http://truthorfables.com/Goldstein.htm provided me with much excellent material for the 3Q Sabbath School study on 1844 and the mythical Investigative Judgement. I gather that Clifford Goldstein never did respond to your questions (because he couldn't!). Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Emr Registered user Username: Emr Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2007 |
If James, Jude and the others were actually the sons of Joseph's brother, Cleophas, then, technically, they wouldn't have been Jesus' cousins. Legally, however, and probably in most people's opinion, Jesus was the son of Joseph, so James and the rest would have been his legal cousins. The common Greek word for cousin is anepsios, used only in Col. 4:10 in the NT (the canonical part of the Septuagint uses this word in Num. 36:11). The Greek word for 'brother' is adelphos, often used for a fellow countryman (Rom. 8:29; 9:3; Acts 3:22) or one of equal rank (Matt. 23:8). Other uses of adelphos in a sense other than biological can be found in Matt. 5:22ff; 7:3ff; 18:15, 21, 35; Luke 6:41f; 17:3. As for Leigh Anne's question, yes, I am from Spain, and Spanish is my native language. I began learning English without leaving Spain when I was 16. I read a lot of grammar books and did lots of exercises and so-called 'cloze tests.' Shortly after my wife gave birth to our second son, we all moved to England and lived there for a couple of years, but, as for my use of English, I only consider myself an advanced student. Still learning. Eduardo (Message edited by EMR on July 27, 2007) |
