| Author | Message | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 49 Registered: 6-2007 |
I have been thinking about a past experience throughout the day today, and I'm not sure what to think. Many years ago I applied for a job as an assistant to the president of a bank. I was offered the job, but then an internal employee was given the job and I was offered a job as a teller. I took the job. I worked as a teller for about 2 years - and actually enjoyed it. One day our boss came to us and told us that the bank would be open on Saturday mornings beginning the next weekend so we should show up for work on Saturday. I remember going to his office and stating I could not work on Saturday and gave him the whole SDA story. He said OK, I didn't have to. The next week the girl who had taken the job I wanted transferred and I got the job I had originally applied for. Better job, more money. Of course I instantly gave God the credit for blessing me for refusing to work on Sabbath by giving me a better job. I believed that to be true for the next 20 years. I told the story many times to SDA as proof of God's blessing when we follow his commandments. Now, today, I keep thinking about these events. I don't know what to think. How can I think God blessed me for keeping the Sabbath when I know now that he didn't expect me to? I'm having trouble even expressing my confusion here. I guess I'm asking if any of you can relate to this. Have you had a story you have told, maybe for many years like I did, and now it doesn't make sense. I suppose the reality is I was a good employee and was given the opportunity to advance. It is just a weird feeling to think something for so long and then change the way you feel about a memory or event. I don't know why things like this bother me, but they do. I think about things like this a lot. Laurie | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 704 Registered: 6-2006  |
Laurie, I think that if you honor God with a grateful spirit, you'll be blessed! It's not that you were wrong for keeping the Sabbath, or that because you kept the Sabbath, you were blessed. I believe the spirit you had behind it got the blessings. The same goes for those who worship on Sunday as well, which is something SDA's don't realize. Am I making any sense?  Leigh Anne | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 50 Registered: 6-2007 |
Yes Leigh Anne - you make sense. I think I knew that, it is just so strange to have a memory pop into your head and then realize you now recall that memory differently. It's hard to explain, it's just weird. Laurie | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 801 Registered: 7-2004  |
Actually, Laurie, that makes sense. I can't think of any story of my own right now, but since leaving SDAism I have thought several times about all those stories that "prove" it was right to tithe, keep the Sabbath, or the miraculous opportunity to attend an SDA school, etc. So far the best answer I've come up with is that God is completely in control of every detail. Perhaps He lovingly and graciously gives us our heart's desire, and uses it within His big plan. Obviously there are other times He doesn't give us what we ask for and only later do we realize that was best after all. It's just not cut and dried. (Message edited by Raven on July 27, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6407 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree, Leigh Anne and Raven. I believe God honors those who honor Him, and even when we don't know all we need to know, if we are acting in faith in a desire to please God, He does care for us. There is "common grace" which God gives all people, believers and unbelievers: rain falls on the just and the unjust; in Him we live and move and have our being, etc. But the Bible says that anything done outside of faith is sin. Dale Ratzlaff has said it well; it is a sin to violate our consciences deliberately. Concurrently, we are obligated to God to know the truth when it's available; not to be willing to see the truth can shipwreck our faith. God doesn't "reward" us for tithing, Sabbath-keeping, etc. He blesses us as we honor HIM. Honoring Him is different from being religious about observances. When we learn deeper Biblical truth and realize that honoring Him means laying aside our "idols" and observances in favor of trusting Him, there is then a new, deeper level of faith. God asks us to honor and trust Him, and when we act in faith, at whatever stage of spiritual maturity we are, he blesses us. Colleen | ||
| Jamundson Registered user Username: Jamundson Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2007 |
Laurie, What is interesting to me is the reaction of your employer. It really wasn't that big of a deal to give Saturday off, from the way you describe it. This is an area that SDA's do not understand about the Sunday law issue they are so confident of. Most of the world really does not care if you worship on Saturday, Sunday or Friday or Thursday night. As a 24/7 365 economy there is ample room to accommodate ones peculiar belief. The idea of a Sunday law in our current world economy is absurd,unenforceable and unconstitutional in our country, and how would it be applied in the rest of the world....then lets talk about Islam......well maybe not here jay | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 87 Registered: 7-2007 |
I'm not sure just where the verse is, but somewhere the Bible says: "whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Anyway, you were honoring God in your heart, because as far as you knew, you needed to keep the Sabbath. Romans 14:14 says that there aren't any "unclean" meats, but the next verse says that if someone is "grieved because of your food" to not destroy that person. I'm just saying that a person shouldn't violate their conscience. At that time you believed you should keep the Sabbath, so I think the Lord honored you for honoring Him (even though you didn't know at that time that you didn't need to keep the Sabbath.) I hope I made sense here. Dianne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1167 Registered: 9-2006  |
Laurie, I agree with every one on here, hope it don't cause my monitor to melt! River P. S. God knew you were his anyway from the foundation of the world, That'll probably draw some fire. | ||
| Jdpascal Registered user Username: Jdpascal Post Number: 52 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hi Laurie I do think that God recognizes our good actions we do based on faith like he did with Abraham, Noah and others of the like described in Hebrews 11 just not in ways that we sometimes like to think of them. I too have heard such stories and thought in a similar way about the benefits attributed to keeping the commandments - BUT – the Bible says the rain falls on the just and the unjust in-spite of the covenant promises of God to Abraham and the children of Israel. SDA’s in the farming communities often attribute a near miss with a hail storm to an “Investment deal” with God but forget that the neighbors across the road or a few miles away were spared without any such “deals” or - that they got the crop off without breaking the Sabbath because it rained on the 7th day and the “non” SDA neighbor had to take the day off as well. These would be told and retold at the annual EGW conventions er …..campmeeting These stories made an inspirational moment to inspire the troops in further devotion to the cause of SDA but I can see no further purpose – cynical though I may be……… I believe that direct answers to specific prayer are another matter. Situations similar to where a storm, headed to destroy a crop and the financial well being of a believer, is prayed away missing only that location would be open to other possibly subjective considerations as well. Comparatively speaking, how many of the blessings we humans enjoy are traceable to “Rain”? Covenant type blessings from God? Answers to the prayers of ourselves or others on our behalf? Is the answer subjective or objective based? Oh and to River.... I think the only reason your monitor might melt is because it is too close to the possum/road kill pot your fixin for your SDA friends.... | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1168 Registered: 9-2006 |
I agree with your analysis too JD. Boy! I am just down right AGREEABLE today, musta been somthin I et!! River | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 802 Registered: 7-2004 |
It's so nice to no longer have to worry about having "the talk" with the potential employer about the unavailability to ever work any Saturday hours. Even at a much earlier time in my life when we were not attending any church and were basically "backslidden", I still had that conversation with a potential employer. I figured that was minimally what I had to do, especially in case I started being a good SDA again then it would already be in place. Now that I'm in the job market again, it was so nice to be able to answer, "Yes, I would be available for occasional Saturday hours." Now if only I could remove any references to SDA schools from the resume... That already came up once on the somewhat-local school: "Oh, I know where that school is, expensive, isn't it?" And I wish I could remove the Ellen White and "Issues in the Great Controversy" classes from my transcript - that has already received raised eyebrows from the Christian college I've just finished. I know, it should be a great conversation-starter, but I find it uncomfortable instead. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 470 Registered: 11-2005 |
Raven, "Issues in the Great Controversy" sounds like an interesting subject, to say the least. Perhaps it would be a good subject to talk about a ToastMasters or a Rotary Club Meeting. Sounds like something real mystical. Perhaps an essay by Thomas Paine or Bertrand Russel? Preparation for the National Security Agency? Perhaps it would qualify you for a special security clearance. I can just imagine someone looking over your transcript! Mine has "Southern Missionary College". Nice sounding Mormon school! So that is where those "missionaries" come from ... When my father taught at Andrews University, he said Catholic nuns would stop by for mass on occasion, and think it was Saint Andrews University. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6411 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ha! That's funny, Gilbert! Yeah, I know what you mean about the schools—Walla Walla College always sounded so—provincial! Besides that, who besides the locals or an SDA knows where that is? Colleen | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2007 |
Laurie, It is where your eyes and heart are that is important to God not what day you worshiped on. It is the fact that you love Him enough to take a day of rest for Him. Gail | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 416 Registered: 12-2004 |
Whenever I have made reference to attending WWC, most people wonder what crime I committed that required time in the prison there. I enjoyed my time at WWC. I had many terrific professors in the Biology dept. including Don Rigby, Joe Galusha, and Larry McCloskey. What I find amazing in hindsight is that I took Pauline letters from John Brunt, Old Testament from Alden Thompson, and Ethics from Gerald Winslow, and never a question came up regarding Adventism's unique interpretation. I chock it up to being pre med and mainly being in it for the grade. I was also there, I find out 25 years later, during the time when Walter Rea and Desmond Ford were giving their talks in the village. In hindsight it would have been interesting to have heard those guys, but alas I was blissfully clueless......I guess some things just don't change!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6416 Registered: 12-2003 |
Randy, I had my freshman Bible class--I think it was Life and Teachings of Jesus--from John Brunt, and I took my second year class from Gerald Winslow at WWC. Nothing "came up" in our classes, either. I do remember Morris Venden giving week of prayer my freshman year--for the first time I had hope that I didn't have to agonize over every unconfessed sin that I had forgotten! Alden Thompsen was in Scotland getting his doctorate when I was there, so I missed him. I knew his sister very well, though, and his brother was a fellow music major--does that count? Colleen | ||
| Cloudy Registered user Username: Cloudy Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2007 |
Gilbert, I don't recall ever seeing any nuns on campus at Andrews. Perhaps they were on there way to Notre Dame. I remember going out to Notre Dame to "witness". I did see Mohammed Ali on campus in the cafeteria. Apparently he liked the food. I'm not surprised Randy was unaware of Rae and Ford speaking near campus. Most likely their talks were not publicized on campus, so you had to find out about them through the grapevine. I did hear Ford speak at the AU seminary chapel in 1980. Most of the students on campus were unaware of the controversy, but I do recall an ethics teacher bringing it up in class. The religion majors/ seminary students were probably more aware. It was rumored that those who rejected the EGW stance on the IJ would be blacklisted from finding a position in the church when they graduated. | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 418 Registered: 12-2004 |
Colleen, I guess knowing his sister, and and being in the same major as his brother.....is close enough. I hold absolutely no malice or frustration towards any of the teachers there. As far as I could tell, they were all sincere, and taught what they believed. I suspect many even then, had questions of faith, but like me for so many years, coasted along as part of the Remnant, without really challenging any of it. I need to also note that some of the most Godly, caring people I have come to know worked at that school, including Walt Meske, the dean of men. I was an RA under him for 2 years, and to do his job, required the strength of Samson, the wisdom of Soloman, and the grace of God. Randy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6421 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Walla Walla was a good experience in general for me. Perhaps the most important thing it did for me was to teach me to think. I saw for the first time that there were ways to look at life that were different from the pretty narrow interpretations of my family. There were some pretty bad things that happened, and in retrospect, understanding Adventism from a new perspective, they make more sense, but still, I learned a lot and had some challenging, thoughtful teachers. The situations with the girls' deans wasn't as good as your with Metske, I'm afraid--and there were some real "oddness-es" just below the surface in the music dept/faculty. In short, I wouldn't recommend it to my kids today, but for me as an Adventist comng from my particular family, WWC was actually part of God's work and plan in my life. It opened me to some things that prepared me to be more able to see the gospel when my life finally decompensated enough for me to know I needed MORE than I had! Colleen | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 419 Registered: 12-2004 |
Colleen, I concur with much of what you say. For me coming out of a very small academy with all the insecurities of moving away from home, WWC seemed like a big new world for me. I would have floundered and struggled at a large state school, so in hindsight God was leading....just as it seemed at the time. Us guys were fortunate to have Meske, Velez, and Prohaska as deans of men. I was fortunate to have missed out on the tyranical dictatorship of the preceding dean Loewen. It is only many years later, that I found out all the shananigans that went on. I was one of those, that was never in trouble. I seemed to have saved that for 25 after the fact. And you are right, in that the woman's dean situation sounds like it had its power struggles and was a soap opera unto it self. And I also concur that there seems to be more partying and curousing going on there now, and even back then, than either of my kids were exposed too at the provincial university that they just graduated from. I guess if you look for trouble you can and will find it anywhere. Thanks for the reminicing, Randy | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 112 Registered: 4-2007 |
I had 3 years of state university before my semester of Adventist college, and another 2 years of dorm living at the state university after my SDA campus experience. It interests me that I have vivid memories of the women's dean and RA's from ONE semester at the SDA college. I compare this to the fact I can't seem to recall one name or even a personal conversation with a dorm director or housing supervisor from all those years of state U. I have some very vague memories of a couple of RA's at the State U. mostly involving getting them out of bed becuase I forgot my key or something inane. I do remember at the SDA college that new students regardless of if they were green freshmen or older transfer students (I transfered as a senior) were required to observe mandatory curfews and study hours. The RA would check to see if I was in my room by a certain time and that I was studying. I was shocked, I was like you have *GOT* to be kidding. They weren't kidding. Thing was, I quickly noticed the SDA kids seemed to NEED the supervision. At the state school, you get a grip and get your grades or you find yourself suspended and aren't in school anymore. No one seemed to take on a watch dog role. The SDA students didn't seem to be able to function without the oversight and control. Even though there were consequences of suspension, it seemed a lot of effort went into controling the student body. Living off campus wasn't an option, unless of course you were living with your parents, which was weird to me. What does it matter when you are over 18 *what* your living arrangements are as long as you get your grades and aren't out advocating for burning down the admin building or something. I know some SDAs thought I was rebellious but I really did not like the level of control at the SDA college. I was 22, had a 3.5 GPA. Was it really the Women's Dean's business what books I had in my room or whether or not I had a junk food stash? Anyway, just some late night observations .... MarysRoses | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 103 Registered: 4-2007 |
It was on a Sabbath, eons ago, that my early teens daughter and I were visiting some friends from church. It was a large farm with a pond and large shade trees, a wonderfully tranquil place. While there the hostess observed my daughter strolling with a boy her own age, also from church and someone she had known for years, unselfconsciously holding hands. Her response to this stunned me. She managed to turn this innocence into the first step toward rutting in the bushes! Her vocal assertions, in the presence of my daughter, that this was unacceptable conduct because it would inevitably lead some sort of sexual behavior, permanently damaged my daughter’s innocence and her friendship with the young boy, this from an umpteenth generational Adventist. Up to this point we had considered her as a friend but this event opened our eyes to the reality that she viewed those around her not as people guided by God but instead seeking opportunities to sin, untrustworthy and requiring close monitoring. This would appear to be the attitude found in Adventist colleges as related by MarysRoses. Can anyone explain why Adventists would automatically suspect fellow Adventists as being guilty already rather than ‘innocent until…’? What can be said about this atmosphere of distrust found in a ‘Christian’ institution that has to closely monitor its inmates? Conversely, what does it say about the ‘Christian’ students if the distrust and monitoring in justified? JONVIL | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6429 Registered: 12-2003 |
Well, Jonvil, my dad used to have a really down-home expression he picked up during his childhood as a Minnesota farm boy. It's pretty homely, but it's really explanatory: "A dog smells its own stink first". This also reminds me of the experience Richard had maybe twelve years ago or so. The LLU School of Dentisty had hired a particular specialist from a university in another state who was Catholic. The man, who knew Richard was no longer Adventist, came into his office one day and asked, "Do Adventists have a problem with sex? Everyone on 5th floor (administration) is either getting a divorce or having an affair." There really is an underlying problem with incest and other forms of innapropriate sexual behavior. Adventists, of course, are not the only groups with this problem; rigid fundamentalist churches also rate high on the incest scale, and Mormons have similar problems, etc. I believe there are many things that contribute to this problem; perfectionism, for one--who can ever be THAT perfect? The ascetic lifestyle preferred by observant Adventists...and Ellen herself advising that wives not excite their husbands' animal passions—and certainly never on Sabbath, that pregnant women should not have sex with their husbands because it would subtract from the baby's energy and life force, that sex in general would decrease one's "vital force" which is finite--once used up, it's gone! Many sincere and observant Adventists—and I know some of them--they're not theoretical—have had fears and guilt in their marriages that were damaging because of Ellen's counsels in this area. So, yes—I believe many Adventists are hyper-sensitive to sex in any context, and without knowing the truth and without trusting in God to bring reality and healing into this area of one's life, perversions are bound to flourish. Colleen |
