| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 365 Registered: 11-2005 |
I am finding it quite interesting how more and more people within the Adventist denomination are taking the position that they really don't care to even talk about Ellen White, 1844 or any other doctrine for that matter. They are sick and tired of anything having to do with doctrines, and just want to enjoy the friendship and cultural benefits the Adventist denomination offers. It provides them with a sense of belonging. And then there is the second group. It consists of those who feel that the first group vindicates everything that Ellen White ever wrote about a "falling away" within "God's Remnant Church" just before the "Time of the End". This group also controls the doctrinal thinking of the denomination, and is represented by a large part of the "World Church". Their focus and passion is to be "guardians of the truth". Obviously both groups are on drastically different trajectories. The primary focus of the General Conference is self-preservation at any cost, a goal they have in common with another organization -- the White Estate. Both coporations have a symbiotic relationship. There is no way that is going to go away. And like with car sales, if the income per car goes down the strategy is to do whatever is needed to increase the volume. More and more Adventist pastors don't actually provide any real Biblical foundation for their flock. How often do their congregations actually hear good expository preaching? Most of them don't preach much of anything from the Bible, and they surely (in most cases) are not going to mention Ellen White! The last Seventh-day Adventist church service I attended about 9 months ago was a perfect example. The guest speaker was introduced as a professor from Southwest Adventist University, whose specialty is teach pastors how to give "effective sermons". He talked first about what a wonderful place Southwest Adventist University was, and then moved on to talking about his trip to Ephesus, accompanied by a slide show. He made it a point of informing us that the early Christians of Ephesus were "Adventists", a "fact" I had not known. The remaining portion of the sermon was spent sharing with us the importance of receiving an "Adventist education". I felt like I was attending a Zig Zigler marketing seminar. I have come to the conclusion that most Adventist sermons are "topical", with the topics selected usually affirming Adventism in some way. A pastor will never get fired for giving these "motivational" sermons, and it keeps them far away from pesky doctrinal issues. Another area that is always welcomed is to periodically talk to the flock about what "good neighbors" Adventists are. I never really was aware of what "expository study" was all about until I started attending the local Evangelical Free Church, and more recently the Baptist fellowship I currently attend. We presently have about 90% expository study, and I have learned more in the year about the Bible than the entire time I was an Adventist. No "Testimony Countdowns" where we do expository study of Ellen White's Testimonies. Just good, make that amazing, expository study of the Bible. I had an Adventist inform me that they do predominately "deep Bible Study" -- which in my past experience in school consisted of studying a book like Great Controversy and looking up each proof text that it listed to note that there was at least a linguistic association. Which brings me back to the first group described above. They can't comprehend why anyone would want to leave the Seventh-day Adventist Church -- "God's True Church". They are perfectly content. After all they don't study Ellen White either! I just had one tell me, "We don't study Ellen White, and we don't study the Bible. We study about God." Imagine that! It has been 162 Years, 8 Months, and 22 Days since October 22, 1844, and as the philosophical "tectonic plates" continue to shift further and further apart, I don't see how the GC will be able to hold it all together another two generations. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 71 Registered: 4-2007 |
Great summary Gilbert! Here in the mid-west I’ve observed an amazing ‘amalgamation’ by the members of touting the legalistic distinctives as inspired by EGW with a form of non-compliance to them. The atmosphere is heavy with Ellenism without her name being used. Quotations are attributed to the book, not the author. They may not want to talk about her but are very influenced by her never the less. EGW is the glue that holds both groups (liberal vs. historic) together. If there ever is a division all will still uphold Ellen-vocally or silently. For the very few who repudiate EGW, they will just wander away, never missed. The SDA church, divided or not, will remain firmly ensconced in EGW. JONVIL | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 337 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have learned more about the Bible in the few months I have attended Seventh Day Baptist church than in 14 yrs. in Adventism. Gilbert, you are spot on in your analysis. It is rarely Bible, usually something affirming Adventism in Adventist sermons. Now at SDB church it's all Bible all the time, what a difference! I agree Jonvil, about the mid-west. When I visit Michigan and went to the Battle Creek Tabernacle the sermons there are pretty much based on Ellen. | ||
| Magpie Registered user Username: Magpie Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2004 |
It is interesting that you say that, because I know someone who is very well versed in the beliefs of SDA, but does not quote scripture, just church doctrine. This must be the reason. They are not taught Bible? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1042 Registered: 9-2006  |
I know, unless I have forgotten someone, 18 Adventist, one of them is a Pastor although retired, almost to a fault they are kind natured people, I have dealt with these people on a daily basis for the last five years, they are from different walks of life, from university professors to laborers, all from different churches. The thing they have in common is the Adventist church and the teachings of Adventism. I can’t explain too much about my affiliation with them because I do not want my identity known on this forum because I don’t know who reads on here. I don’t feel at this time to do anything to destroy my relationship with them because if I do my work is done there, I pray with them and get a chance to lift up Jesus and the surety of salvation I feel to them quite often. I have never felt led to argue doctrine with them and they don’t know that I know what Adventism really is, they don’t even know what Adventism really is themselves for that matter, but one thing I do know is that they are serious about their religion and serious about wanting to be saved. The problem has been, how can I help them to come to a saving knowledge of our Lord? These people want to be saved just as much as you and me. When they pray, they pray earnestly, just as earnestly as the next person. They each and every one believe that what they are about is the right thing and that Adventism will get them where they want to go which is where we all want to be. These people are serious about the Bible also, they have grown up believing they are right in proof texting the way they do and their proof texting only proves too them they are correct to their mind. These are not shallow people, however blinded by Adventism they may be. These are the eighteen Adventist that I know; I have never been inside an Adventist church, I’ve thought about going, but I really don’t have the time and knowing what Adventism is, is sufficient anyway. It is my analysis that Adventism is a deceiving force that keeps them blinded to the Bible and bound to Adventism even as they read it. Like a break in the clouds causes light to move across an open field, it moves swiftly across and then it is shaded as if it had never had the light shine on it, they read the Bible and do not see the light as they scan across the pages. Friends I think I know this to be so. Now I am going to get to the meat of what I am going to say here today. In knowing what I know and seeing what I see happening and as repugnant as Adventism is to me, as repugnant as the deceiving spirit behind Adventism is I have to be careful to not close my bowels of mercy to these people, if I thought that they were truly saved I would move on, but I think it is a form of Godliness that denies his power. So friends, I am asking you, if we become hard hearted toward our friends and loved ones because of their deception are we any more of a servant of God than they are? While it is true that what I know don’t make me an expert on Adventism everywhere, I know that Adventist are people everywhere, and I do know that it is largely handed down from generation to generation. I believe they are under what might be termed a generational deceit. What I want to write is that I have to be careful about becoming hard hearted and uncaring toward these people however hard that may seem. However much we come to hate the deceit and the deceiver we must not allow hate for the deceived seeing as how God has spared us who are just as undeserving as they. We may have the goods on Adventism, but do we have the burden for the Adventist still left captured by the deceiver? If the former Adventist don’t have a burden for them, then who will? And if we have become hard hearted toward them we have lost any burden we may have ever had. I don’t believe anyone can convert that people from the inside although some have said that God is calling them back into the church to reform them that is a hard pill for me to swallow and I just can’t get it down, but hey, what do I know? I just seem to think it will take prayer, love for the person we happen to be dealing with and the work of the Holy Spirit to do any good while remaining distanced from their beliefs. My mind may be changed as I go along. Its just that I see the propensity to become hard hearted toward the person because of the repugnance to Adventism, EGW and IJ itself, now I am not speaking for anybody else, these are just some of my impressions on a personal basis and hoping that some of what I write on here may be of some value and not a hindrance to any of you. This is not in response to this thread Gilbert; it’s just that some of what you said reminded me about these things and writing it out helps me stay solidly on course as a reminder to what I am about. Speaking of the factions you talked about, while there may be divisions in these factions the root causation does not change which is deceit by spiritual forces which the gc has really no control over since it controls them. The average Adventist hierarchy thinks it is in control, but is only a lackey for the deceiving forces at work. While Richard or Colleen aptly and with wisdom pointed out that due to thousands leaving Adventism, the harder it may be to reach the ones left in it, I think that that is true and it will grow darker in the Adventist church with the exit of the ones that have a hunger for the truth, have that cognitive dissonance so often spoken of here. To my mind that makes it all the more important not to lose any burden that God may give us for them, we need to pray that he will soften our hearts and give us a burden for them. I am of the opinion that we can become hard hearted without even realizing it although I believe we can realize it if we are alert to our own condition. When we are becoming hard hearted we are already drifting away from the Lord, but we can “plow” that “ground” with meditation, prayer and supplication for someone other that ourselves and again become pliable enough to hear the Holy Spirit. Jesus said to “take up the cross and follow him” that “take up” denotes an act on our part, not his. Guess I am done preaching to myself folks. River | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 366 Registered: 11-2005 |
Magpie - They are not taught Bible in the non-Adventist view of the word. For example, I attended Andrews University Elementary and Academy since my father was on the University faculty. For Bible class, I remember one semester studying Patriarchs and Prophets. We didn't need to read the Bible directly because we knew Ellen's "divine inspiration" gave us insights into the Bible (so we were taught) that non-Adventists didn't have. It was "our message to a dying world." Even for family worship, etc, we always used Ellen White's writings as a preferred way to "understand" the Bible. After all, they were "written for our time", and with much more detail that was simply missing from a mere reading of the Bible. To study the Bible alone would have been a dangerous thing, leaving the reader to arrive at any number of positions as evidenced by the diversity of interpretations held by the multitude of "Babylonish" non-Adventist denominations. As we approached adolescence there were important motivational books for evening family worship such as "Messages To Young People" and the "Adventist Home" that provided us with insights into the dangers of playing pool, checkers or baseball. It saved us from the hellish environment that exists at the theater. It warned us in crystal-clear terms about the dangers of misappropriating even a single idle moment. It gave us critical insights into the activities of our "recording angel" that people prior to 1844 simply would not have understood. It provided all manner of timely council that did not apply in the time of the early Christian Church. It truly made us God's Remnant People with a special messsage to a lost world. Through baptism we had been the fortuitous recipents of membership in God's ark of safety -- the Seventh-day Adventist Church. (Somehow I don't remember ever studying Counsels on Diet and Food as a child for family worship. It would have help us as children to better understand the dangers of cheese, eating "even a morsel" between meals, ice cream, or heaven forbid -- eggs. That would stimulate the "animal organs" in our brains, which would no doubt cause "unconscious" evil thoughts that would confront us during the Investigative Judgment. Oh. I forgot! Isn't the Investigative Judgment only for the "righteous"?) It sounds very similar to the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and Christian Scientists, doesn't it! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 367 Registered: 11-2005 |
River - On other forums I have noticed an antagonistic, argumentative and alienating spirit such as you describe. Here we have frequently commented on the earnest desire to somehow help in removing the Seventh-day Adventist organization's cultic "Boa Constrictor" grip from the victim so they can breath in the Breath of Life again. I don't sense here that any of us want to hurt the victim. Those of us who are "Former Adventists" have been freed by others who were willing to do more than just stand by and feel sorry for us. Sometimes prayer is all we can do. Sometimes God provides us, like the Good Samaritan, with opportunities to become personally involved. Most of our attention is focused on the life-smothering "Boa Constrictor", but I think we all find here a great deal of compassion for its victims -- since all of us "Formers" have been victims as well. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2007 |
I didn't have any of that "cognitive dissonance" while I was an Adventist until that friend of mine (with God's help) pointed out how the Bible and Ellen White contradicted each other. She herself, had never been an Adventist. (She was converted out of the Catholic church about 30 years ago.) I wasn't the only Adventist that the Lord used her to reach. About 12 years ago, there were three Adventists (a mother, father and grown son) remodeling her home. She invited them to sit down with her and carefully read through and discuss the New Testament. At times, they would say what they thought a passage meant and my friend would ask them where the Bible said that. They were therefore forced to go by what the Bible itself said and by the time they had finished the New Testament, they decided not to be Adventists anymore  Dianne | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-1999 |
River, I completely understand what you are saying in regard to "keeping your true thoughts a secret" so you can remain a witness to those who are Adventist. You are correct when you say they will no longer listen to you if you state your "grace orientation". However, there comes a point when no matter how "you make yourself appear" to them your words of grace have no impact. The difficult thing with Adventist is, as you well know, that terms used by other believers have a totally different meaning when applied by their doctrinal orientation. I, too, tried for years to "blanket" by true beliefs in order to remain a witness. They don't hear!!! In reading your post the words of Titus came to mind. "But avoid foolish controversies and geneaologies and arguments and quarrels about he law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned." Titus 3: 9-11. The context of this statement is based on centering our message with these people to the gospel message---Christ and Christ alone. The Adventist mindset always draws the controversy back to the Sabbath, to the law. Titus' message regarding this is clear. When they want to make the law the issue you warn them twice and then you have nothing to do with them. I do not feel guilty about "having nothing to do with them". I have made my faith in Christ evident by taking a stand against THEIR laws. I have taken up my cross, the shame, by saying and professing that my faith is in Christ and Christ alone. (Not in myself or what I can do.) They are "ashamed" of me because I speak only of Salvation by Grace. They are "ashamed" of me because I won't "do something" for salvation. I proudly take up the Cross of Shame and say that it is enough, it is everything, it salvation to those who believe. For that they are "ashamed" of me and they pray that I will come back to the Sabbath. The barrier between us and the Adventist is the same barrier that God struggles with. Human volition!! We can't change what they in their hearts decide to do. God won't change that either. We can't make the choice for them. The factor missing with all people who have accepted religion as a substitute for Christianity is the same. They do not yearn for TRUTH. It is the desire for unadulterated TRUTH which brings one out of religion and into Christianity. Without this desire one will remain exactly where they are. I feel, I am a better witness being true to my beliefs, even though this may appalling to them, than I would be by putting up false pretense. There will come a point when those who seek the Truth will remember me. It is my hope they will remember my faith in Christ alone and it will encourage them to pursue the truth. Lori | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 368 Registered: 11-2005 |
Diane, what a great testimony! That is a neat story. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 369 Registered: 11-2005 |
Lori -- very well stated! There is also an inner peace in being true to ourselves. And as you stated, those who are looking for Truth will remember you. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 340 Registered: 5-2007 |
Lori and Dianne, Great testimonies! I agree about being true to oneself. That is what I am doing at this point. My wife is becoming more and more ok with my leaving Adventism because I am continuing to be true to myself while loving her and showing her a better walk with Christ. The last time she asked my why can't I just come back to Adventism and ignore the things I don't agree with like the IJ and Sunday Laws like she does(she doesn't believe in those things either). I lovingly told her I can't do that, I have to be true to myself and to God and I just can't do that, I am going to continue to go to Seventh Day Baptist Church, I hear the Gospel there and I'm not giving it up. And she didn't push it any farther, praise God! I can't go to SDA church and ignore stuff. I can't waste my time going to their EGW Indoctrination Hour(Sabbath School) I can't sit through those dry sermons that have nothing to do with the Gospel anymore. I just can't do it. I have found the Gospel and I have a hunger for it like a starving man. And I'm NOT giving it up. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 370 Registered: 11-2005 |
Reb - great testimony. We're all proud of you for sticking by your convictions! You are showing true leadership. The fact that your church family and hers both worship on Saturday should make her transition immensely easier. It really takes guts to leave Adventism. The emotional grip is so strong. Both of you are in our prayers. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1043 Registered: 9-2006 |
Lori, You make good points and they are well taken and well received. I do get the impression that I said something that may set people on the defensive, that was certainly not my intention and certainly not in my mind to down anyone here. Also if I gave the impression that I am laboring under false pretense in order to win them over, they know who I am and I have made no false pretenses to them, I just don’t tell them everything I know. Well, maybe that is false pretense in itself. In one place Jesus said to Matthew 10:16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. What I was talking about was my own fight to keep from becoming callous and bitter and feeling like I am getting nowhere with them. If I stepped on toes I am sorry and I take responsibility. River | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 341 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, it's ok. I think you said some good stuff. Thanks, Gilbert. If the time does come when my wife chooses to follow me out of Adventism, it's going to be a lot harder for her than it was for me. She is 3rd generation Adventist, graduated from Adventist nursing school. Most of her side of the family are Adventist and very conservative Adventists at that, she is the only progressive/evangelical Adventist in her family. They would freak out even if they knew about my leaving. Since they are mostly in Indonesia they don't know and I don't feel compelled to let them know, it would probably cause problems for my wife and I don't want to do that. I am greatful that she is being as understanding about this as she is but her family are much more conservative and not as likely to be understanding about it. With my wife, it will be defintetly baby steps. She has a lot more pressure on her to remain in Adventism that I did, she risks the disapproval of most of her side of the family. My side of the family aren't Adventist and it didn't bother them a bit when I left it. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 72 Registered: 4-2007 |
Lori wrote: "However, there comes a point when no matter how "you make yourself appear" to them your words of grace have no impact. The difficult thing with Adventist is, as you well know, that terms used by other believers have a totally different meaning when applied by their doctrinal orientation. I, too, tried for years to "blanket" by true beliefs in order to remain a witness. They don't hear!!!" Like showing movies to the blind There definitely is a communication breakdown. The words are the same: grace, savation, atonement, justfication... but when used or heard by SDAs the meanings have been distorted almost beyond recognition by their IJ theology/EGW. Only the Holy Spirit can penetrate the fog. JONVIL | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 342 Registered: 5-2007 |
So true, Jonvil. Like dealing with the Adventists on CARM. Anything we say, most of them seem to be able to twist a scripture here or there. Nothing seems to get through. Sometimes I think the only thing to do is love them and pray for them. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 371 Registered: 11-2005 |
David DePinho, currently a chaplain and formerly a Seventh-day Adventist pastor, has a wonderful and gracious analysis of why it is so difficult to share the Gospel of Christ with Adventists. You can read his his excellent testimony at http://www.ellenwhite.org/testimonydd.htm He describes the challenge in the section, "Keys to Understanding Adventism". This is a testimony that I would be willing to share with any inquiring Adventist.
Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1044 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jonvil, There is one thing of witness that bypasses that communications breakdown and that is to use the words in thankfulness to God that we know we are saved and can rely on his word to that effect, I sometimes resort to just that witness, they do not confess that because of the IJ, I know it puts them in a tizzy but I am just impish enough to enjoy it even though I can hear teeth grinding. River P.S. Another thing to express is perfect peace in Jesus, they don't have it and that makes their teeth grind. So there are ways to communicate if you like to set their teeth on edge. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 343 Registered: 5-2007 |
Gilbert, I have read David's testimony before, and I gotta say, he hits the nail right on the head about that issue. |
