| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 428 Registered: 11-2005 |
[My wife asks me, “Why do you keep digging up more dirt on Adventism? Haven’t you found enough? Isn’t it time to move on?” Yes! As I have transitioned out of Adventism and into Christianity, I am moving on in my walk with the Lord. It brings with it an excitement, enthusiasm, assurance, and in-depth Biblical understanding of God’s Word I never knew while under the fear and bondage of the Adventist cultic mindset with its reliance on Ellen White’s interpretation for everything. Like the apostle Paul, it energizes me to not sit idly by and say that I have no future obligation to other transitioning Adventists. The least I can do is witness for my dear Lord and Savior. I feel a renewed earnestness to expose the dark side of Adventism so that anyone who has lingering doubts is convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt about how Adventism pretends to be based on the Bible, but still actually gets its authority from the teachings of Ellen White. We must do everything we can to stop the continuing deception. Like many former Adventists, I feel a passion to do everything I can to warn others of the difference between the gospel of Adventism and the Gospel of Christ. It is in this spirit that I bring to the light of day these continuing beguiling deceptions -- traps set to ensnare those seeking to escape the cultic clutches of Adventism. We owe it to those who follow after us to share with them assurance that Adventism is indeed a very subtle form of counterfeit Christianity with a completely different gospel – a gospel based on legalism and fear, instead of the assurance that the book of Hebrews talks about.] If a transitioning Adventist’s senses haven’t been assaulted enough by the mind-boggling twisted logic of Ellen White, perhaps this latest tired rant from Pacific Union Conference President, Thomas Mostert, will convince sleeping Seventh-day Adventists that at its core all the Adventist negativism hasn’t changed one bit. Not one Bible verse is quoted! No where is a passion for Christ and his infinite gift exhibited. In fact, Tom says sarcastically, “Now our emphasis is on salvation through Jesus, full and complete.” Yes, Tom. Jesus’ salvation IS full and complete! From the August 2007 Pacific Union Recorder, President’s Perspective, page 3 http://www.pacificunionrecorder.com
Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6373 Registered: 12-2003  |
Oh, Gilbert--what an editorial! His sarcasm is right out there! I sense he's pretty frustrated with all the negative thought and reactions to the church lately, and with the numbers of members who are becoming liberal, self-styled SDAs. I so understand your burden to be sure people with lingering questions know the dark side of Adventism. As someone recently said, I know a lot more about Adventism now than I did as an Adventist. The farther I am from it, the clearer its true nature appears. People need to know! Colleen | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 275 Registered: 7-2005  |
I find it quite refreshing to hear that these things are happening in Adventist's minds to the extent that Mostert felt compelled to write this letter to everyone in the Union. To me, that is God working; especially if the thought patterns manifest as, "Now our emphasis is on salvation through Jesus, full and complete. Total serious consideration of the prophetic messages from Ellen White = ZERO." That is an answer to prayer! Honestwitness | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1131 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: Like many former Adventists, I feel a passion to do everything I can to warn others of the difference between the gospel of Adventism and the Gospel of Christ. It is in this spirit that I bring to the light of day these continuing beguiling deceptions -- traps set to ensnare those seeking to escape the cultic clutches of Adventism. We owe it to those who follow after us to share with them assurance that Adventism is indeed a very subtle form of counterfeit Christianity with a completely different gospel – a gospel based on legalism and fear, instead of the assurance that the book of Hebrews talks about.] Thank you for that needed letter to us Gilbert, I am beginning to sound like a broken record, but the evangelical world at large goes on unaware of the depth of heresy perpetuated by the Adventist church. Like Patria said in her address, they use the same language used by the Christian world at large with different meaning, a trick which cuts communications with Christians at large and pulls the wool over their eyes. So who is left to minister the gospel to Adventist, transitioning Adventist, and their families? If Evangelicals feel no need to carry the Gospel to the Adventist, and the former Adventist feels no need to carry the Gospel back to the Adventist from which they came, I am just wondering who will do it? Who will clarify the Gospel for them. As Pastor Inrig apparently believes and I believe myself from the observation of 35 years or so of the church at large and the alarming attempts to soften the Gospel and to water it down to a one size fits all status, homosexual leaders in the churches and so forth, even now serious Pastors like Gary are making up their mind to hold the Gospel in the best truth they can come up with and are determined to stand. I am a nobody, but I am convinced this will fly in the face of the many who think we must water down the Gospel, soften it in favor of retaining numbers in their congregations. The Gospel has always been an offence to those that are perishing and I don’t look for changes real soon on that. Take a look at Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Do we want to be reproved for becoming unsettled in the hope of the Gospel? Pastor Gary Inrig apparently thinks not and I agree with him. Grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the Gospel, what a statement! Gilbert is apparently becoming grounded and settled in for the long haul, there are many sprinters who can sprint a short way then flop over. I had a friend who was 46 years old who ran 26 miles each day before he went to work at a local mill, he was no sprinter, he was a long hauler. He paced himself and put down mile after mile. Pastor Inrig and some others are trying to identify, get settled and pace themselves for this race. Some are going over the course boundaries, getting the lay of the land, identifying obstacles in preparation to finish the course. We have to be *settled* to contend for the Gospel, like a stone cutter who takes his chisel and begins to chip a line across a massive stone, he just keeps chipping and forth across that line until the stone breaks suddenly and cleanly following that line. The Gospel is our chisel and the hearts are stone. Like Gilbert I am settled in, I don’t have to hit that Adventist stone hard, I just keep chipping away with well placed blows. IMHO. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6377 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, well said. Your point about being settled for the long haul really reverberated with me. You are absolutely right—if we don't tell the Gospel truth to Adventists and the truth about Adventism to evangelicals, who will? And if the Christian community doesn't know the truth about Adventism, how will it help stabilize and nurture the growing numbers of those leaving Adventism as they try to find a place within local Christian congregations? I have a growing burden not only for presenting the truth to Adventists but for helping the evangelical community to understand Adventism. Even in our own church, where the pastoral staff supports the (sometimes controversial) ministry of FAF, former SDAs who join the church have on occasion been asked, "Why did you leave Adventism, anyway?" It's a most deflating question. In general, there is a total lack of awareness of the deep problems because of the ways Adventism plays with "Christian" words. You're right, River--this ministry and mission is not a sprint. Living for Jesus and witnessing about Him, letting His truth shine the light and expose the darkness of deception—this work is a long haul. Your metaphor of chipping away at the Adventist stone with continuous well-placed blows as opposed to a burst of hard hits is perfect. Gilbert, I totally share your convictions. Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 429 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen, We are with you 1000%. We have two "mission fields" -- those caught in Adventism, and the evangelical world who has been bewitched by Adventism's subtle twisting of familiar Christian terms. For this I am eternally indebted to FAF, ellenwhite.org, truthand fables.com, and all of Dale Ratzlaff's good books and efforts. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 97 Registered: 4-2007 |
In focusing “on issues impacting the personal or collective faith and mission of our members and the Church” it is quite telling in that he apparently ‘forgot’ about the “issue” of God and the Holy Spirit , the term Jesus is used but in a dismissive manner that implies unimportance. Also the ‘pointed counsel’ of God’s Word is omitted and apparently deemed not important, but he certainly ‘remembered’, as important, to include: traditional Adventist understanding traditional Adventist health message Ellen White’s pointed counsel the unique mission of the Adventist Church faithfulness in tithing Tom Mostert represents a faithless Denomination, not faith in Jesus. JONVIL | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 435 Registered: 5-2007 |
Amen, Jonvil! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1135 Registered: 9-2006 |
traditional Adventist understanding (we don’t understand squat) traditional Adventist health message ( we spout off but we are just as sick as the rest of the world) Ellen White’s pointed counsel (Following her counsel shows the world how stupid we REALLY are) the unique mission of the Adventist Church ( to bring confusion to the whole of mankind)  River | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 176 Registered: 10-2006 |
You bad River. steve | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 98 Registered: 4-2007 |
He must be a liberal - he didn't mention jewlery | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 436 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jonvil -- Roll On Floor Laughing! You are all way too funny. That is if it wasn't so sad! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 44 Registered: 6-2007 |
Gilbert - I love your use of the word bewitched. One of my very favorite texts since leaving adventism is Galations 3:1-14 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."[b] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Still, every time I read this, I just shake my head and think how did I not see this for 40 years. As far as the discussion on presenting the truth to adventists, I just feel like it is an exercise in futility. We haven't talked to anyone from our old church in 18 months. They don't care we are gone and don't want anything to do with us. Sometimes I feel like renting an airplane and pulling banners through the sky all day long proclaiming the errors of adventism. Sometimes I want to just knock on the doors of adventists and shake them! Other times I feel like what is the point? I have tried, many many times and have gotten nowhere. I personally have the need to find out more and more about the religion I left behind. My husband, on the other hand, has no such desire. He is just grateful and happy to be OUT! I don't know what the answer is, much of the time I have a great burden to somehow warn potential members and try to save current members. I just continuouly ask God to make me aware of any situation I may find myself in and to help me say and do the right thing. Laurie | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4037 Registered: 3-2004  |
So far, for me, I tell others what the SDA church teaches. That right now is what God has for me to do. Occasionally He has me talk to a minister. Usually it is an individual. I am happy to do that because I know God is with me. There are times I just want to walk away from everything adventist, even formers, and concentrate on the Bible and my relationship with Jesus Christ. But God has a work for me and it does involve SDAs and other Christians. My awesome God will give me the words to say. Diana | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 437 Registered: 11-2005 |
Laurie, I can really relate to what you are saying! I have experienced the same. Galatians is also one of my favorites because it so describes Adventism. My departure from Seventh-day Adventism about 9 months ago was interesting, in that it was basically a non-event. No one really seemed to care. It is almost like it is perfectly normal for people to be gone for a long time and then occasionally show up. I and a few others raised quite a discussion during the 3Q 2006 Adult Sabbath School Study about how bizarre the SDA interpretation of 1844 and the IJ is, and how there is no Biblical basis. The general consensus of about 80% of the class was that it was baloney. But with the exception of one other person (one of the three teachers) and I who basically stated that we were leaving Adventism because it was a farce, no one really cared. One of the teachers flat out stated that "Ellen White doesn't do anything for me. I read the Bible." Another teacher introduced a number of discrepancies between the quarterly and the Bible, and then didn't follow through on it. The third teacher said he could not continue to teach what he did not believe in, and told the pastor that he wanted to renounce his Adventist membership. The pastor said he would speak to the class, on his behalf, and then kept putting it off week after week. Meanwhile a number of us were getting more and more disgusted with Clifford Goldstein's 1844 garbage. Dr. Joseph Battistone, a peer of Desmond Ford's, attended Glacier View and identifies with Desmond. He even sat in on the class on occasion since he is a member there, and had previously been the pastor at the church. (In the 1980's he wrote one of the quarter's Sabbath School Lessons.) He stated outside in the hallway that he thought "the whole (18844/IJ) edifice needs to be torn down, and rebuilt from the ground up." He even taught the class one of the final weeks that I attended. Dr. Battistone was excellent at basically talking all around the problem, but never arrive at a conclusion. Meanwhile the Pastor would come in for a few minutes, and then leave for 30 minutes to copy a paper, or do something else. It was such a farce! I talked to the pastor on a number of occasions and he agrees that there are serious problems with Ellen White, but that we need to just work around those and not focus on all the goofy stuff that she said. He stated that it was "extremely unfortunate that the General Conference would choose such a devisive subject as 1844 and the Investigative Judgemnt for SS study." The general attitude of the church leadership including the elders is that Ellen White doesn't do anything for them, and that she is irrelevant. As far as they are concerned their focus is on praising the Lord, etc. The Adventist culture is where it is at. It's crazy. For weeks before I left I openly passed out numerous copies of Cultic Doctrine, as well as Sabbath in Christ. No one had heartburn with it. A relative of Dale Ratzlaff's was even a member of the class. Their position was that they found inspriation from her writings. So most of the people view her as a devotional writer, and just ignore the "goofy stuff" (as they call it) that she wrote. To paraphrase J. Edgar Hoover, "If the deceipt is big enough no one will believe it." Laurie, I could go back this next week and continue passing out more Cultic Doctrine books, etc, and no one would be offended. They would actually look at it as positive affirmation that the Adventist church is not as bad as some people make it out to be, and that there is room for dissenting viewpoints. If I was to continue dialog it would probably be with the Pastor. I am on good terms with him. In fact his phone number is in my cell phone right now. His response has been, and would be basically, "If I leave the Seventh-day Adventist Church where would I go? I have a family to feed." It is so sad! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 178 Registered: 10-2006 |
Yo Laurie, Let me know when you intend to fly that plane with the banner exhibiting Adventism stupidity, I'll pitch in gas money. steve | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 152 Registered: 4-2005 |
Mostert wrote, and I am not quoting if we give up Adventist destinctives we would be like the community church down the road== exactly,and that would be a good thing and that is why they will not give them up. A year ago when I went to campmeeting and heard a sermon on Grace, and except for one little sentence he sneaked in about keeping Sabbath it was wonderful, the audience loved it--but they are working so hard to keep their jobs via their distinctives. It is so dishonest I do grieve for them. Peggy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1142 Registered: 9-2006 |
Gilbert, I think there is no question that there a very few in Adventist churches who have a heart for God and his word and why should that be surprising, he will take a people out of every kindred, tongue and nation. River | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2007 |
When Jesus taught in the temple he called the Pharisee's on the carpet because of their legalisim and their lack of love for God and the understanding of His teachings. Isn't this what EGW is all about, the legalism? It is the love you have for Jesus and His love for us not what we eat, drink or wear. As we have learned our salvation is not based on these legalistic acts but on God's word. I can not remember the SDA ever teaching or preaching on Jesus rebuke to the Pharisees concerning this. If they did it had to have an EGW twist to it and not straight from the bible. It took me to really study Jesus's teaching in the temple to realize this. This was such a break through for me and this is one of the reasons I left the church. I have not as yet sent in my letter of resignation but am leaving it up to the Holy Spirit as to guide me to when the time is right. I could go on but then I would be rambling and that is not necessary as there are more important spiritual matters to learn about. I bought a book called 'All the Apostles of the Bible' by Herbert Lockyer. It has really helped me understand them and their lives. Gail | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 444 Registered: 5-2007 |
Wow, Gilbert! That horrid 1844 quarterly was what really started my journey out of Adventism as well. At the SDA church I attended, though, people DO believe in that. I was teaching Ellen White Indoctrination Hour at the time, and could not in good conscience teach the 1844 and IJ after I realised it was WRONG and because of that and later introducting long/old earth creationst views during the next Quarter(I am a long/old earth creationist which the SDA church considers heresy) I was "woodshedded, dismissed as a Sabbath School teacher and almost disfellowshipped. During the 1844 Quarter one of the other Sabbath school teachers admitted that you take away 1844 and the IJ and the SDA Church would not exist. He upheld this stuff even though he admitted it cannot be supported on scripture alone. When I told my wife about this, she started to question it and decided we would talk to a Pastor from one of the Indonesian SDA churches and all he did was get out this Adventist book written in Indonesian(I can speak and read some Indonesian) with pictures of a Beast with a little horn that actually looked cartoonish. This pastor said I am right, 1844 cannot be completely supported by the Bible and then said 1844 is why he is PROUD to be SDA as it is the ONLY Church that believes this stuff. I didn't say anything but inside I was pretty disgusted and I realised at that moment I HAD to get out of Adventism. |
