| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 930 Registered: 10-2002  |
Have you noticed that after learning the truth -- after entering the Sabbath rest and being freely filled with the Spirit -- have you noticed that when you look back at Adventism, it is as though you never really believed it? I've noticed this in myself for awhile, but only tonight have consciously recognized or questioned why. I sometimes remember or describe the beliefs I used to have as an Adventist for so many years -- beliefs I taught as a missionary and argued with peers. But when looking back, I feel like I never really believed it. As I reflect and prayed on it, I came to two reasons so far. One is that since learning the truth, Jesus has sunken deeper and deeper into my heart -- my spirit is alive and resonates with His. My soul believes in a way that is deeper than I have ever believed before, deeper than I have ever been able to believe before. It's like the "root" simply went deeper. When you're only able to swim in the shallow end of a pool, you're sure you're swimming. But once you move to the deep end, you feel like the swimming you did in the shallow end before wasn't really swimming at all. I think it's like that. Connected to this, the other reason that I feel like I never believed the old SDA things is simply because the power of the Holy Spirit's voice is becoming stronger than anything else in my life -- even in my past. I hear His voice today, and as I look into my past, I see what He was doing and where He was moving. His presence is becoming stronger. Thus the doubts about Adventism He quietly watered have grown louder and more powerful in my memory than the beliefs I then had in untruths. It's been strange to confess that I never really believed those things in the past. Yet I am not lying when I say those things. "Believing" in the way I do now, well, I couldn't believe that deeply before! (Which is why I spent about two years in philosophical/existential near-clinical depression!) ... Before I even said these things to myself, I knew Adventists would say in quick response, "See, you never believed in the first place!" Yet my memory serves me correctly -- I know that I believed them. I know what I taught as a missionary. I know what I was taught as a child and all throughout school and Sabbath school. As far as I was able, I sincerely believed. What is simply happening is that the voice of the Spirit in my past is growing louder than my past beliefs: He is drowning them out, and as I look back, I only see His beautiful, patient, loving and guiding presence. Anyway, I just thought I would share this -- I am betting I'm not the only "fool" (for Jesus!) who has been feeling these things.  Jesus, thank You for bringing me to Yourself. Father, You are so awesome and so loving -- I see Your embrace all through my life now! Because of Your Spirit, I believe in a way that is deeper and resonates to my deepest place, deep in my spirit, and I hear the reverberations of Your own beloved Spirit speaking to mine. Truly, I had never believed until You revealed Yourself to me! Thank You! Thank You for showing me Your presence in my past, in my present, and in my future, and for holding me securely. Thank You for doing this to all my brothers and sisters here. I ask in Jesus' name that You reverberate and reveal Yourself to our families in Adventism -- bring their whole spirit, soul and body into Your Shabbat shalom, the rest in You, Jesus, for You have brought us home. Thank You. Amen. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4015 Registered: 3-2004  |
Ramone, What you are saying above really resonates with me. I was a "true" believer in SDA doctrine until I joined a 12 step group. No before then I did not like to hear EGW quoted in church because it was not the Bible. Looking at my past I am being shown where the Holy Spirit was working on my heart and I am now just recognizing it. But I still "believed" everything I had learned. God's Holy Spirit was quietly working on me. I really believed all I had been taught and yet there were times I was not sure, like with EGW. Thank you God for taking us out of Adventism and bringing each of us into the larger family of Christians. Thank you for bringing us home. And God, Please bring our SDA relatives and friends home to you. Thank You for doing this. You are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 87 Registered: 4-2007 |
Could it be that we can believe that which is not true but without conviction (not confirmed by the Holy Spirit) and when presented by that which is true we then believe with conviction (confirmed by the Holy Spirit)? I believe that the assessment that we really never did believe in the first place is accurate, we ACCEPTED to be true what was presented by the schools, pastors, seminars but it was never an abiding truth that WE had discovered. We accepted it as truth thru the claim that THEY had discovered the truth. JONVIL | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 88 Registered: 4-2007 |
The absolute lack of any enthusiasm to discuss the ‘truths’ they believe in soooo much is due entirely to the lack of conviction in those truths. Adventist theology is based entirely on the claims of others as to what is truth – the big ‘other’, of course, is EGW. All scriptural study is aimed at confirming what has already been declared as truth, never to discover truth. JONVIL | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 419 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jonvil said:
That is exactly right. If 1844 is a core doctrine, if it is such a great thing, why isn't it introduced first at SDA evangelistic meetings? Even they know that it is not supportable. It is a total farce. Instead the evangelistic meetings are "piped in" from satelite, because the local pastors don't even believe what is being promoted. Their meetings focus on secret interpretations of end time "prophecies" instead of the Gospel of Jesus. That is why they have nothing in common with the surrounding Christian fellowships (which Mrs White refers to as Babylon, and lost since 1844). The same goes for Ellen White. The Mormons are a lot more truthful than the Adventists. They won't hesitate to mention Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon on the very first encounter. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 230 Registered: 1-2006  |
Ramone My experience has been very similar. As a child I sensed (this had to be from God's Spirit!) something deeply wrong with what I was hearing at SDA school and church. Although it took decades, the Lord gently led me toward Him and one day I realized that I was no longer an Adventist. I delayed leaving formally because I didn't want to hurt others, but it became increasingly clear that I would be rejecting the leading of the Holy Spirit in my life if I didn't continue to follow. Praising God now! Bob | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 89 Registered: 4-2007 |
The pastors could do it if they receive the Amazing Facts training on 'How to be a shill and love it'. Lesson #1: How to keep a straight face Lesson #2: How to lie convincingly Workshop: Scripture twisting - 99 ways to distort scripture Requirements: The ability to deny reality, strong stomach, Bible optional Graduate studies: How to force decisions (1) The art of applied emotional blackmail (2) Mastering browbeating (3) Know the limits - Twisting arms without actually breaking them | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4019 Registered: 3-2004 |
JONVIL, I like the descriptions of your course descriptions. I laugh because if I didn't, I would cry. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1108 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jonvil, Heh, heh. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2412 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ramonne, I honestly really never did believe "The Adventist truth". I was born into it and even when I was a little kid I'd ask questions that always began like this, "But, The Bible says..." amnd I'd continue with what the Bible said about any particular topic that the grownups were trying to impress upon me at the time. The stock reply I'd get was, "Susan, you are a little girl and we don't expect you to understand it all right now at your age. When you grow up and have the understanding of an adult you will understand the truth." Well, the older I got the less sense it made to me. BTW, I attended a prominate SDA highschool boarding school in 11th grade. My introdoctronation teacher (aka: Bible teacher) finily had me put my desk out in the hall and told me for the remainder of the school year I could sit at my dest in the hall and just read my Bible. I was not allowed to play hokey, I still had to show up but he put me in the hall to read my Bible during class because our main textbooks were EGW books and I had an urge daily to show him and the class FROM THE BIBLE what it said on any given topic. So, the teachers way of dealing with me was for me to sit at my dest in the hallway and read my Bible during the 50 minute class time. I still thank the Good Lord daily for that as I am convinced I got the best Bible instruction of any student at that school that year. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1110 Registered: 9-2006 |
Susan, That is one of the most striking and revealing stories I have heard on this forum to date. It reveals the nature of the beast so clearly, that drooling, slavering beast as it wades its way through the opposition to it. My, my how the Lord did have his hand on you and I can see that so clearly, I set here and give him praise for his love and care to those that are sensitive to his voice and his touch. Every once in a while I see a story on here that strikes me to the bottom of my soul, God will have a people and I kid you not, a people that he himself has raised up, I want to be one of those don’t you Susan? Your story makes me ever more determined to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and see with eyes of depth and purpose. As I read your story I envisioned a kid banned to the hallway outside the door and away from her fellows. There was a man who was of color who attended a Bible school in Texas years ago whose heart so hungered for God, he was relegated to the hallway outside the door to listen in on the Bible class because of his skin color and he was willing to suffer it to learn of God. Friends I have no doubt that he received a place of honor and Susan, God surely hasn’t forgotten that and you will receive a place of honor. River | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2415 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear River, Thank-you for the kind words and for your prayers. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1966 Registered: 10-2004  |
Susan, it's great to see you around here again! Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4020 Registered: 3-2004 |
Susan, How good it is to see you posting again. How is every thing with you and your family. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6350 Registered: 12-2003  |
Susan, good to see you back! Ramone, intersting question. Yes, your experience resonates with mine. I'd never thought about it that way, though. In retrospect, I always had questions about the IJ, and even as a kid I wondered how we could be sure we were right when every other church believed they were right as well. Who arbitrated "right"? The issue, I see now, was the lack of the Spirit's confirmation of truth. But how could I have known it was missing? But I do look back and see that Jesus was drawing me even then. He knew I was His long before I knew! It's like the metaphor I heard: before we are saved we see a doorway ahead of us with these words written over it: "Come unto Me, and I will give you rest." After we are saved we pass through that doorway. As we look back from the other side of the door we see these words written over it: "Chosen from the foundation of the earth." Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 931 Registered: 10-2002 |
Susan, thank you for sharing your story... never grow up, Susan! My goodness, it was completely and morally wrong. When you're an adult, you'll understand -- meaning that you'll ignore Scripture, too, because only children ask those kinds of questions. Pah! I don't wanna grow up, I'm a Kingdom-of-God kid! It is things like this that fulfill the meaning of what Jesus said, "Whoever causes one of these little ones to sin, it would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and thrown into the ocean..." God is very protective of His children; He won't allow this thing to happen forever. ***** I realized another reason I "forget" and feel like I never believed is simply because I know more about the substance of SDA doctrine than I ever did as an Adventist. I've seen more sides, read more, and understood the SDA theology deeper than I had as an Adventist, when I only had a superficial understanding. Additionally, I now understand Jesus' atonement and who He is much better, so I can look at SDA things in very vivid contrast now, and I know that I never believed many things. The easiest example of this is the SDA idea of the scapegoat being Satan. While I accepted what Ellen White said, I never questioned it or searched it out deeply. Without knowing the full meaning of His atonement, and without knowing that every sacrifice pointed to Jesus Christ, I could not rightly be offended by the teaching or recognize it for what it is. It is the same for the idea of Michael being another name for Jesus. I didn't see a problem with it simply because I didn't deeply know Jesus as God. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6358 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ramone, I totally understand what you are saying. My experience with those and other doctrines matches yours. Because I didn't deeply know Jesus as God, I didn't understand the horrifying reality of the scapegoat doctrine and Jesus-as-Michael and the investigative judgment, etc. I did not understand what those doctrines actually were saying about Jesus and reality because I didn't understand Jesus. Now, the amazing part is that Jesus knew me—and He was caring for me and preserving me and teaching me long before I understodd what He was doing. But I truly didn't understand Jesus having ALL the fullness of God in Him. Only after I understood the gospel and began to know Jesus as truly God my Savior did the Adventist doctrines begin to reveal themnselves to me as heretical and even blasphemous. Many things seemed innocuous because I didn't really know who Jesus was. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1176 Registered: 4-2000  |
Susan_2, Thanks for sharing your testimony. Obviously, the Bible has been your special friend for a long time. Truly, an inspiring story! Soli Deo Gloria! Dennis Fischer |
