| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 154 Registered: 5-2007 |
Sorry for the typos, it would not let me reedit 10 seconds later. Glitch in system? | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 305 Registered: 11-2005 |
River--I really appreciated your post and your experience. Thank you so much for sharing it. This past Sunday, I was visiting a charismatic church and saw some of the spiritual gifts manifested (first time I've witnessed these). Initially, I was a little cautious about what this service might be like. But it ended up being SOOOO NOT what I expected. First, the service was very uplifting and "worshipful", but at the same time, there was a peaceful reverance. Although there were those around me speaking in tongues (in their own moment of worship during prayer and singing), it was somehow quiet, humble, and above all, orderly (I'd always had the idea that charismatic churches were somewhat disruptive-like). And it wasn't even in the least bit, "scary" or "wierd" to me (which my response surprised me as well!!) I agree with the issue of these spiritual gifts being sometimes misused and an instrument for abuse. But in all honesty, I've found that theology can be used as an instrument for abuse too. Fact is, anything not 100% grounded in God's truth (His Word) and Spirit-led can be a source of abuse. This is a new area of discovery for me. It's an area I've had struggles with in the past. I've been scared about it, to the point of discounting it. I've been curious about it, to the point of "chasing after it". I've been fascinated about it, to the point of "missing the big picture" of it. But most recently, I've been just open to it and allowed God to reveal the aspects of it as I'm ready for them. So far, this seems to be working  . I'm no longer confused or scared about these things. Rather, I'm coming to find as I'm opening myself up to the Spirit more, there are parts of my heart, and deep parts of my Spirit, that is beginning to be touched in a way I've never experienced before. I haven't spoken in tongues, or had any outward manifestation of these gifts. So I don't believe it takes "that" to know we've been touched by His Spirit. But I do believe that the gifts are very real, and very much a part of the current body of Christ. And I'm finally at the point in my journey where I'm open to recieving them if God wills them to me. By the way, the charismatic pastor of the church I attended likes to remind people that the gifts of the Spirit are not an indication of spiritual maturity. The gifts are given by God, AS HE WILLS, to help believers accomplish in their ministry what they have been called to do. It is what it is--a gift. The fruit of the Spirit, are the characteristics that DEVELOP in the believer as they grow in Christ. This is more of an indication of spiritual maturity. That distinction has been helpful to me. Grace | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6312 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, I also appreciate your post above. I admit that I have more and more begun to see that the Holy Spirit deals very individually and specifically with us, gifting and healing us for His glory. I'm not meaning to argue at all with your understanding of Acts 8--that text has puzzled me very much in the past. I do, though, want to explain what I came to see a few years ago in a Bible study on the book of Acts. The Pentecost experience, which WAS the foundation of the church, occurred in three "parts": the first, in Acts 2, occurred in Jerusalem, and all those who received the Holy Spirit that day were Jews. They were the first group of people who were ushered into the brand-new reality called the church. Peter presided over this event; he was the preacher and the one who called those 3,000 converts to repent and believe. The second part of Pentecost happened in Acts 8. It occurred in Samaria to those people who were the descendents of the northern kingdom of Israel intermarrying with the Samritan pagans. The Samaritans, like the woman at the well in John 4, believed a syncretistic relgion that borrowed from both Judaism and paganism. They worshiped Yaweh as well as other gods, and they were ostracized by the Jews. Phillip preached to them, and they responded to the news of the gospel. Phillip called for the brothers in Jerusalem to come and see--and Peter and other went. Peter prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit, which they had not yet done--and they also entered the church at the indwelling of the Spirit. The third part of Pentecost occurred in Acts 10 and 11 when the first Gentiles believed and received the Holy Spirit. Peter went to Cornelius's household, preached, and when that entire household heard the gospel, they believed and received the Holy Spirit prior to their baptism. Peter and the Jewish brothers with him were dumbfounded, hardly able to believe that God would give the dirty Gentile dogs the same Spirit He gave them. Each of these three "events" occurred under the apostolic authority of Peter to whom Jesus had said He would give the "keys of the kingdom". If the Samritans or the Gentiles had received the Holy Spirit without the confirming witness and authentication of apostolic authority, the Jewish apostles who led the church from Jerusalem would never have believed that the Samaritans and those despised Gentiles had actually received the same expereince they, "God's people" had received. The church would have been divided from the beginning into three segments: Jewish, Samaritan, and Gentile. Peter's apostolic authority and witness were necessary for the church to be unified. This presence and offical apostolic involvement were the fulfilment of Jesus' promise that He would give him the "keys of the kingdom". In fact, Peter is only heard of one more time in the book of Acts after those three events of the world's three people groups being ushered into the church--and that time is Acts 15. Peter and his brothers were able to give eye-witness proof that God had blessed these formerly outcast people with the same blessing He gave the believing Jews. These events, under the apostolic eye of Peter, necessitated that the believing Jews would have to lay down their arrogance and traditional ideas of division and embrace these formerly despised people as brothers. They had to eat with them--and eat their food!--they had to embrace them as brothers. Without Peter's oversight and his authoritative reports (see also Acts 15 for more evidence that those Jews had a huge learning curve that depended upon the apostles eye-witness accounts of the Gentiles' acceptance by God), the church as a united body would have likely been doomed. That being said, I do not discount, River, that people do receive special gifts and teaching and power and insight from the Holy Spirit when they specifically ask for it. Jesus even said that if a father would not give his son a stone when he asked for an egg, how much more would the Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask for Him. I believe that this gifting from God is linked to submission and humility before the Lord Jesus rather than to seeking for an experience or for power. I believe that all the gifts of the Spirit (which really come from the entire Trinity—1 Corinthians 12:4-6) are for the building up of the body of Christ. Ephesians 4:12-13 clarifies that these are to build up the body until we all reach maturity and "unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." We do not need to fear God's work in and among us as His body. I've seen a subtle "classism" devlop over the issue of tongues, those who speak sometimes asserting that they have more of God's power than those who don't—and, on the other end of the spectrum, those who disbelieve the validity of the gifts for today suggesting that those who speak in tongues are less "knowledgable" or somehow less mature Christians. As Grace said above, the gifts of the Spirit are promises of God for believers. (And those gifts include not only tongues and prophetic gifts but also spiritual gifts of teaching, evangelism, administration, generosity, etc.) They are not marks of maturity. The fruit of the Spirit named in Galatians 5:22-23 are the marks of Christian maturity. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1064 Registered: 9-2006  |
Colleen, I admire your verdant study, I respect your Bible knowledge and your humble Loving Spirit and as I know you more and more that respect just grows. In fact I know you know your Bible far better than me. I know you are not doing anything to argue with me nor I you. With that understood I will show you where and why I disagree, but only in love and honesty of heart and why I think this theory is weak. 1. Our atonement was finished at the cross. 2. The middle wall of partition was broken down on that cross, no longer was there a difference to be made between Jew and gentile. 3. There was no three parts to Pentecost, the Holy Ghost came just as Jesus promised and he is for all believers, all the gifts, all the time and it was from the day of Pentecost, he didn’t come in three parts and he no longer made a difference between Jew and gentile, not then and not now, he brought with him all the gifts that day for everyone who would receive them, both Jew and gentile. 4. Yes he sent peter to Cornelius's house and yes he showed peter in a vision, but that was because Peter had not yet gotten what all had happened, it was not further proof on Christ’s part it was due to Peters failure and lack of knowledge. God is no respecter of persons. Principle one “God is no respecter of persons, ever. 5. Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit and that promise was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. His promise was completed on the day of Pentecost. 6.This one stumps me, where did Philip invite Peter and John down to Samaria? I see no indication that he ever contacted Peter and John or any of the rest of the disciples while he was at Samaria. It says in verse 14 Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: The Bible says they “had heard” but that could have been from a boy with a carrier pidgin or any number of ways, It would really be interesting to see where you got that “Philip said come and see”. What I see is Philip setting the place on fire preaching Christ to them and then he is out of there, the next time he shows up an angel of the Lord is telling him to get on down toward Gaza and Philip ain’t letting no grass grow under him, he went to some Eunuch to preach Christ to him. These Guys are spreading the word about Jesus just as fast as they can, Philip maybe called the disciples up at Jerusalem but I cannot find any indication that he communicated with them in any form during that time, in fact I can find no record that Peter and John even talked to Philip at Samaria, one would suppose they did but we cannot go on suppositions. While I admire your historical facts about race and such and who was Jew and who was gentile, what I think you have developed is a complicated theory that rejects what you think cannot possibly be, that there is a second event to be had by all Christians, Jews, gentiles, pigmies in Brazil and you. While your historical facts are great, your reasoning and logic is faulty I think and this is where, you put difference in the disciples as being someone they were not, although chosen for Gods purpose, the only authority they had was Gods authority for his purpose just as he told Paul, they would suffer much because of this privilege. You, I believe however inadvertently put the apostles in authority but it was Gods authority being worked through them, but there is no respecter of persons with God, they will receive a faithful apostles reward. Christ loved his apostles, who were willing to lay down their very life for him, but he told Peter if he loved him to feed his sheep now Peter has gone to his reward and it is other people who he pleads with to feed his sheep and what do his sheep get to eat? Garbage. Lord have mercy. While we go on their word, God gave it to them for our sake, you see you mistakenly think the apostles started the church and it has went on that foundation laid back then and I see it as the Holy Spirit working within each life SINCE then, any foundation laid by the disciples and apostles was for the words sake which we now have. But it took the Holy Spirit to keep it going long after the apostles are dead. That is the difference between me and the Catholic, bless their pea pickin heart. What the Catholic has is laid on the foundation of peter, what I have is laid on the foundation of Christ and the foundation he lays in my heart, has laid, is being laid. It may even be a form sort of like ancestor worship or apostle worship but I don’t worship the apostles I worship Christ and him only. Hey, even the angel said that to John. I ain’t going to tear into the Catholics now. While your historical facts are good about how the first Acts went down these things were written for the words sake, thank God Jesus didn’t leave us hanging at the day of Pentecost. The “keys of the Kingdom”, this is a vague scripture, what I believe that it means is that Jesus is saying “Look Peter I will give you, the people, the keys of the kingdom, Peter was the torch in the wilderness as well as all the disciples, they died and the torch has been passed from Christian to Christian, we now hold the keys of the kingdom, preach Jesus Christ and him crucified, we are the light in a dark world the same as Peter was light in a dark world, but the Catholics taken the vague scripture and built a tradition on it, built their Church on a vague scripture, all they have is tradition, they don’t have the second event either, they have the desert but no water. The second event in the Christians life is not part of a second promise, it is a part of the first promise. There has been nothing added since the day of Pentecost. Jesus said that we would receive power after the Holy Ghost has come upon us, I don’t need to give scripture here because you already know them. That what this thing I like to call “second event is” one cannot have acquisition to theses gifts without the baptism Jesus promised, He “comes upon us” that’s what happens, when the tongues and interpretation happens, the Holy Ghost “comes upon” that person. The gift of tongues and the Holy Ghost coming upon me and being able to stand in a crowd of two thousand and deliver a message is the least of these gifts. I confess I don’t understand the reason he does this fully. This is what he was talking about when he said he “would baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire. While what you put down sounds fantastic and great and complicated enough to satisfy any theologian and a couple historians thrown in, it just will not hold water, but if you are happy with it. Bless you dear heart, with all love and blessing from the father. This is a faith walk, I’ll bet you we both agree on that, nothing is to be done outside faith in Christ, I bet you we both will say amen to that, you will obtain nothing outside faith, can we possibly agree on that? What will cause you to go to church next Sunday? Faith. Sense nothing will be obtained outside faith, no second event, you have convinced yourself that there is no second event and there will be no second event, you will have what you had faith for. The difference is dear heart that I had this second event a matter of months after God reached down for me in such a miraculous way, no use telling my story again. What, do you think I did not love and hunger after the Lord reached down for me, do you think I was not saved, from the first Saturday I got up and poured out half a sixpack of tall coors, went to church Sunday morning and heard the word of God preached, all I could think of or talk about was Jesus, I said the sinners prayer of repentance everytime I heard it, I had repented 14 times over, I was saved all right, God was on my mind twenty four hours a day, I couldn’t stand to wait for the next service and I would always arrived way before they opened the church doors. Colleen, you cannot imagine how hungry I was for God and one Sunday night I stood on the front row and just raised my hands to him in worship and I prayed for more of him, and all of a sudden I was speaking in a language I had never heard. You think getting saved and hungry for God is really great and it is, but that night was like nothing I ever encountered, it was not the burdens rolling away and being free as when I got saved, it was being completely saturated with his presence, it was like fire being shut up in my bones and rivers of living water rolled and rolled out of my inner most being, and it has never stopped as long as I walk in the spirit, that mighty presence flows in and through my inner being, I pray in that wonderful heavenly language when his beautiful Holy Spirit moves within me, I don’t know what I am saying but I know within my Spirit that he always does the will of God. It is at these times that I am lifted above these aches and pains this old body is subject to and above the cares of this world, think of that, it is only a taste for eternity, far above this old sin torn world and in his presence forever more. You cannot do this without giving him the praise. Its like falling in love with him over and over and over, head over heals. Yes he did say he would give the Spirit to them that ask and the key word is ask and the key word is faith believing, when I experienced that second event I held nothing back, nothing, I surrendered myself totally and completely and he filled, saturated, baptized me in his Holy Spirit. So dear colleen you go ahead and be satisfied with your three part Pentecost, be satisfied in your heart that you have gotten all, but dear friend I have experienced Pentecost just as the disciples did that day when the Holy Ghost fell as tongues of fire. I will not allow abuse of the gifts by ignoramuses and charlatans who seek for money to rob me of whatever God has for me both now and ever more. Now you are not one of those, so don’t go thinking that was meant for someone who has not had the experience, I mean those who abuse the gifts and cause disorder in the churches. The older I get the more I love and value my Bibles, all six or seven of them and the more I care less about the things of this world. I just want to serve my Lord any which way I can. I get up at four in the morning and my old faithful bibles are there, I turn on this computer and I have several more versions there, Sister, if I am living a dream just don’t let me wake up to your reality. Just go ahead and let me be a fool, I am a fool for him at least. Whether we ever agree on our bible understanding, pray for me and I will pray for you. From your uneducated brother in Christ. River P. S. If you think I am all about tongues you are wrong, wrong, wrong, I am about Jesus Christ and him crucified I have given you my four pillars of faith at least four times, I am not concerned about a second event over the first event, I am concerned about the first event, I am worried for my Adventist friends, I want them to know the Jesus I know. After they are saved and all those that I am concerned for, if they want to experience that second event, I am all for them receiving all God has for them but firstly, salvation, one of my most respected ministers is Billy Graham, his total message was about Christ and salvation, when I get a chance to witness to some one I witness about his saving grace and tell of his peace. Nothing is ever said about tongues, a second event or gifts accept one and that is the gift of salvation. I never talk about this accept to mature Christians whom I don’t feel like I got to cram a bottle in their mouth. What I see on here are mature Christians, tongues or no tongues, so I hope you will take every word as honest and in friendship. Concerning the class-ism you spoke of, class-ism crops up among immature Christians and folks ignorant of the word, who fail to walk in the Spirit, who fail to reason and to study, are we to listen to these immature Christians? Are we to let such foolishness divide? Develop class-ism over tongues? What foolishness. Your dog’s bigger than my dog? Big deal. The claim of additional power by those who have received is not more power, as in force, more responsibility is the correct word there. What am I to do Colleen, hold the truth in disobedience because of immature Christians who refuse to walk in the Spirit? So what about the people who don’t study, don’t grow, don’t witness for Jesus, afraid of their shadow, don’t walk in the Spirit at all, got to have the bottle, stiff, unyielding to the Holy Spirit, the churches are full of them, Sunday morning Christians. These are the kind that feeds tradition. No, the gifts are no sign of Christian maturity, they are just that, gifts to all who will have the faith to receive the them, gifts to his church body, the fruits of the spirit don’t come with them, we are to produce them. I hope this answer is not too fragmented, but I am not really wrapped up in this subject. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2007 |
River, I forwarded some of what you said to the friend who, with God's help, brought me out of the SDA church. She liked what you said and wanted to say some things herself. (Now she hasn't read these last few responses, so I hope this fits.) I would like to put her response down here if you-all don't mind. Quote: Dear River, I love your “name” as it reminds me of the River of God and how we are all to have rivers of life flowing from our hearts, that we like a river would bring life to all that we touch, in the Name of our wonderful Lord Jesus. We are to be streams of refreshing water in the dry and thirsty desert of this world that is more and more turning its back on God. I also love your heart for God and your humble spirit. Your response to this important issue that my friend A Surprise forwarded on to me is verrrrry good. I whole heartedly agree with you. I would just like to … if I may briefly, to the whole group (as I am not a member of this group, but I am part of the family of God, as I pray each one of you on this thread is, in God’s family) … add a few points that were not covered in your wonderful defense of this precious gift from God. I was saved out of Catholicism ( a deception just as gravely in error as the SDA ; any church that adds in any way to the Word of God .. in authority = Pope and catechism is in error )( SOLA SCRIPTURA The only way to be safe from every wile of the enemy and every wind of doctrine is to know and be grounded in the WORD ALONE.) I was saved almost two years before I received the gift of praying in tongues. I prefer to call it a prayer language and not speaking in tongues as that is what it is to me….communication between my spirit and God’s Spirit. It is the sweetest form of communication to me, that ushers me most effectively into the presence of God. I pray in the Spirit all through the day at home at work, at church. We are to pray without ceasing. God is Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. Praying in tongues meets both of these requirements. Praying in tongues is praying as the Holy Spirit gives us utterance so it is truth and it is also praying according to the perfect will of God and not our own desires. That said I will get to the points that I believe were not covered but are very important. We are to contend for the faith in a world fullllll of the enemy’s deceptions 2. We must be grounded in the Word of God to defeat, as the Lord Jesus did the lies of the enemy with the truth of God’s inerrant word. 3. Not even Jesus began His ministry without first being baptized in water- as an example to His followers. Baptism in water is only a picture or symbol of what has already happened in a believer’s life – death to your old way of life and resurrection as a new creature in Christ Jesus. Immediately following His water baptism the Lord Jesus had the Holy Spirit descend upon Him… a second experience. It happens that way for some, for others there is more time between being born again by faith and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Although Jesus was fully God and fully human. He lived His life totally as a human being - but a human being full of the power of the Holy Spirit. It was the power of the Holy Spirit in Him that – caused the lame to walk and the blind to see and raised the dead to life again. He said greater things will we do because He gave us the same power from on high that was available to Him – the Holy Spirit. He said I must go but I will send you the comforter, the Holy Spirit, Who is available to everyone, who genuinely trusts in the Lord Jesus and His finished work on the cross for salvation. That is why John the Baptist was said to be the greatest prophet born of woman, but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist. Matt11:11. Why, because John was the last of the Old Testament prophets pointing to the Messiah. In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit only rested on the prophets but in the New Testament He indwells us and daily fills us. John the Baptist said I baptize you in water, but there is one to come, who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matt 3:11. I do not know about all of you but I want allllllll that God has for me here. I desire to be a 100 fold Christian and I do not believe that is possible without the ministry, power and gifts of the Holy Spirit 4. The church did not get its beginning until Pentecost. The apostles did not receive power to heal the lame, raise the dead or turn this world upside down from walking with Jesus, (salvation). They were all hiding in fear after the crucifixion. They received this power when they received the Holy Spirit. Peter preached and 3000 were added to the church that day. Do you not want this power ??? Do you not see why Satan does not want you to have this power??? 5. Praying in the Spirit is the most effective weapon against the enemy of God as we are praying the perfect will of God. We are in a battle between the will of God and the will of Satan. Satan will use his full arsenal to keep this weapon of God out of the hands of Christians. If Satan cannot get you to do wrong .-. he will get you to do right - wrong = abusing the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Satan will try to keep you from this mighty weapon by putting you in fear of its power. Where does fear come from ??? Does it come from God??? God is perfect love and perfect love casts out fear. Satan will counterfeit this gift to confuse believers ..but the fact that he counterfeits this gift is proof that it is genuine. No one counterfeits something that is not genuine. Satan wants to cause confusion. Who is the author of confusion.??? Confusion is not of God. Would you stop spending money because some people abuse it by gambling???? Would you stop spending money because some people are afraid of it ??? carries all those germs you know Would you stop spending money because some people counterfeit it??? Would you stop spending money that was exchanged in a foreign country because you are confused by the foreign currency?? Would you stop spending money because someone told you it was not for today? The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Would you be the least bit hesitant, if Bill Gates wanted to give you a million dollars?? How much better a wonderful gift from God Would you stop using electricity because you do not understand how it works??? No!!!! you would study and learn how to wisely spend your money so you would not fall into those errors ??? Are you willing to let the enemy of God keep you from the greatest gift, God has given us, other than salvation for any of these excuses?? Every good and perfect gift comes from the Father in heaven above, does He not know how to give you, good gifts?? If you ask Him for a fish, will He give you a snake??? If you ask for bread, will He give you a stone?? How can you trust God for salvation and not trust Him in His gift of the Holy Spirit???? I humbly ask you to study the Word of God and show yourself a workman and not ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. Learn how to get this gift and how to use it for the pulling down of the strongholds of the enemy of God. Why has the church been so ineffective in these last days; because we have lost our power from on High. Thanks for listening. He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit is saying. Much love in Jesus who rules and reigns in heaven and on earth and in my heart His servant | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1065 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thank her for me for the letter, many good points. Most of all I am thankful for you, that she didn't give up in her prayers for you, that encouraged me like nothing else could, not to give up on my friends who are trapped in Adventism. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 42 Registered: 7-2007 |
What do I know?? I was born and raised an Adventist and was one for a little over 50 years. As an Adventist, I knew almost nothing about the Holy Spirit. Some Adventists called Him "it" and some refered to Him as "Him." About all I knew was that the Holy Spirit helped us and worked in us somehow - but my ideas about that were very dim and hardly anyone preached about the Holy Spirit. Even once at an SDA camp meeting when a preacher talked about the Holy Spirit, he didn't know much and even then I could see that he didn't know much. Now that I've been out of the SDA church for over a year, I can look back and see how DEAD the Adventist church was - how terribly devoid of life and obviously empty or nearly empty of the Holy Spirit. (It seems that Ellen White has substituted the Sabbath for the Holy Spirit because she says that the Sabbath is the Seal of God and that those who keep it in the end will be saved; but the Bible in Ephesians 1:13,14 says that the Holy Spirit is the SEAL and the GUARANTEE of our inheritance! Scary! Sabbath versus Holy Spirit!) Anyway, I'm not going to discount what the Holy Spirit has in store for me. River, I sent her your post and she says that she's thankful that you were encouraged and she hopes that you continue to contend for the faith. Dianne | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 101 Registered: 4-2007 |
Hi Asurprise, I'm not surprised about the lack of teaching on the Holy Spirit. There have been many threads on here discussing this topic. Adventists have a belief in the Trinity listed in their fundamental beliefs, but the founders were not trinitarians. The word trinity is now used in referring to their beliefs, but when actually teaching about the Holy Spirit or the nature of God, they often fail to fully embrace the historical Christian doctrine of the Trinity: Three persons, One God. I have heard in sabbath schools a variety of different things over the years; that there are three divine beings, who have a unity of purpose (but not of being which is tritheism), as well as that there is only one God, one person, but with three roles (modalism). And of course, just about variation on the topic in between the two extremes. The confusion imho, is the lack of a clear teaching that is authentically trinitarian. The most evident symptom of this are the vague references to the Holy Spirit. Most often He is referred to by adventists as more of an impersonal force or influence, rather than a Divine person who is God in the same way the Father is God and the Son is God, one in being with them as One God in the most Holy Trinity. I also know Adventists also often end up picturing God as having a body, a physical 'person' furthering confusion. God is spirit. Jesus of course, has a body as He is fully God AND fully man..... One God, One in being, three persons... it can make your head ache. The thing is, we cannot fully understand it, we can say what it is not, which is often the best way to try to grasp the basics. Here's a link to a thread from this forum where it was extensively discussed, and i'm sure there are others. http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/5533.html?1181957443 God Bless, MarysRoses (Message edited by MarysRoses on July 18, 2007) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 44 Registered: 7-2007 |
Marysroses, When I was an Adventist, I was always taught that God was three Persons and that the Holy Spirit was as fully God as the Father and the Son. It's just that people didn't seem to know much of anything about the third Member of the Godhead. He was just not discussed much, except to say that He works hard, as the Father and Son does, to bring salvation to mankind. I am so gratefull to be out of that church! Dianne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1066 Registered: 9-2006 |
Marysroses, I might also be of interest to you that many Catholics have received this experience I have referred too, you may have heard of it, it is a church somewhere back East, apparently the Pastor (preist) of the church just began seeking God about it and before long almost all of the church had received it, this was several years ago, it was strange to see everybody clapping their hands and jumping up and down to the Hymn they were singing, I saw the news clip with my own eyes, nothing dry about that group. The church (bishops) or whatever didn't know what to do with them so the last thing I heard was they just left them be. Another Pastor, Brother Lavender who was the Pastor of the First Baptist Church of Bakersfield, ca. which is the largest church in Bakersfield received it and he had faithful been their Pastor for years on end and known as a beloved Pastor, also received it along that same time frame, they didn't know what to think or what to do, the people voted him back in even though he had never left, it was comical though, I don't know if he is still alive, retired or what but he continued on to Pastor his flock for many years. The Pentecostals didn't know what to think about the Catholics receiving, remind me of Peter at Corneilious house. Have you heard anything about this? River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1948 Registered: 10-2004  |
Part of the above quoted letter really concerned me. I will quote that part here:
That sounds almost identical to EGW's heretical teaching on this subject. Regarding the first part, I sure hope she wasn't saying that Jesus needed to be born again or receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God! Secondly, to say that Jesus lived His life "totally as a human being" and not as God, is to effectively deny that He was still God (and that the Word actually became flesh). Jesus never "gave up" OR "set aside" OR "de-activated" His divinity--how could He possibly do such a thing if He is the one true living God? Also, to say that it was only "the power of the Holy Spirit in Him" that raised the dead, etc., is terribly wrong. Jesus raised Lazarus by His own power--He said "come forth!" and he came forth! His miracles were proof that He was the Messiah and the Son of God--He didn't do them with a power not His own like His disciples later would! (Also, the Holy Spirit's power IS Jesus' power--and cannot be separated into two "powers"!) If you look at the Gospels, Jesus most certainly "used" His divinity while on earth, and people even declared Him to be the Son of God because He did such. Also, to say that Jesus did not use His own divinity while on Earth, but that He used "someone else's" (the Holy Spirit's) divinity would be (whether intentionally/knowingly or not) to make two separate gods. But Jesus Christ IS the one true God! There are NOT two (or more) "divinities." Finally, to say that Jesus was just a human being using the power of the Holy Spirit, and that we can do the same, means that we would be just as divine as Jesus was while on Earth! And, of course, that would present all kinds of theological problems. Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1160 Registered: 4-2000  |
One of the books in my library that I highly recommend on this topic is entitled, "Charismatic Chaos" by Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. It is a MUST-READ type of book for serious Bible students who want to know the historical and religious background of the "First Christian Church of Corinth." The book deals with topics like "Signs and Wonders," "Speaking in Tongues," "Does God Still Speak Today?" etc. Dr. MacArthur calls for bibical evaluation and analyzes the doctrinal differences between charismatics and non-charismatics in the light of Scripture. This book tackles such questions as: Is experience a valid test of truth? Does God still give revelation? Prophets, fanatics, or heretics? Does God still heal? What should we think of the Signs and Wonders movement? Does the Bible promise health and wealth? You can obtain this book directly from the Grace to You website: www.gty.org Books are like friends, we can't have too many good ones. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1949 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here is some proof that Jesus was omnipresent and GOD while on Earth:
It would be total blasphemy to say that this was "by the power of the Holy Spirit and not His own power"--and to say that it was some kind of "clairvoyance" through some separate "Holy Spirit"!!! NO, the Holy Spirit does not involve Himself in occultism! Besides, the passage says that Nathanael knew that it was proof that Jesus was "the Son of God" because He had seen him under the fig tree!! Also, more evidence that Jesus lived as God while on Earth (how could God not live as God?), is that the demons were terrified of Him when they met Him, and said things such as: "And they cried out, saying, 'What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?'" (Matthew 8:29 NASB.) The demons did not say stuff like that to the Apostles! Notice that those demons did NOT say: "What business do we have with you human being who is filled with the Holy Spirit?"!!! No, they were terrified of the power of the Son of God!!! Also, Mark 1:34 (NASB): "And He healed many who were ill with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He was not permitting the demons to speak, because they knew who He was." And Luke 4:41 (NASB): "Demons also were coming out of many, shouting, 'You are the Son of God!' But rebuking them, He would not allow them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ." And Luke 4:32-34 (NASB): "and they were amazed at His teaching, for His message was with authority. 33In the synagogue there was a man possessed by the spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice, 34'Let us alone! What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are--the Holy One of God!'" (Luke 4:32-34 NASB.) And Luke 8:28b (NASB): "'What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me.'" Also, Luke 10:17 (NASB): "The seventy returned with joy, saying, 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.'" Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 18, 2007) | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 102 Registered: 4-2007 |
River said: "The Pentecostals didn't know what to think about the Catholics receiving, remind me of Peter at Corneilious house. Have you heard anything about this? River" _______ Yes River, We call it the Charismatic Renewal and it began in 1967. It has the approval of the vatican and the bishops. Pope John Paul II especially supported and encouraged Charismatic Renewal. The US Conference of Catholic Bishop's commitee on Charismatic renewal defines baptism in the Holy Spirit like this: "As experienced in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal baptism in the Holy Spirit makes Jesus Christ known and loved as Lord and Savior, establishes or reestablishes an immediacy of relationship with all those persons in the Trinity, and through inner transformation affects the whole of the Christian’s life. There is new life and a new conscious awareness of God’s power and presence. " Our parish has a very active Charismatic prayer group. The last prayer service I attended, we as a group were quietly praying a communal prayer while there was music playing. Persons who wished to could go up front and pray with the leaders of our group. Many were slain in the spirit, speaking tongues, etc. Many asked for healing. It is a profound experience. We have a Charismatic Praise and Worship service on Sunday evening before the youth group meeting, my daughter LOVES This. Her age group are preparing for confirmation, which in our Church is the sacrament where the bishop blesses the children by laying hands on them and praying that they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The link between this sacrament and Charismatic renewal gets a lot of emphasis in our parish. Historically, I think that the New Testament practice of laying on of hands and praying for the gift of the spirit became our sacrament of Confirmation. The Charismatic Renewal movement, imho, is deepening the appreciation and experience of that sacrament. We don't consider the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to be the same thing or limited to that occasion however. There is no formal theological definition of 'Baptism in the Holy Spirit' so there are some minor differences of opinion here and there on exactly what is meant and its relationship to baptism and confirmation. The experience and the gifts seem to be similar to what you describe River. MarysRoses (Message edited by MarysRoses on July 18, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1067 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jeremy, I saw those mistakes in the ladies understanding of the trinity. I just didn't want to tackle anymore theology right now. Guess I am tired. But you are pretty much dead on seems to me. Yes Jesus is God. Marysroses, I wondered how Rome treated that, my, my, my, 1967 seems not so long ago, but I remember it, shows how old I am getting. Fortunately God doesn't depend on our puny theology to work in our lives, all it really takes is hunger for him and faith. God does things in our lives and then we fight over how it is to be done, or say it is not of God because thats not the way we were taught or what we think the Bible says. Do we really realize how childish and without understanding we must appear too God? I am more humbled by the day at what God is doing. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6323 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, I just want to clarify that I am not arguing against the fact that God gifts us with gifts and power sometimes multiple times in new ways AFTER we are saved. My only problem is with the specifric necessity of calling it a "second blessing". The 3,000 who were converted at Pentecost received the Holy Spirit—but it wasn't a second blessing; it was their FIRST blessing. Same with Cornelius's household; they received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues at the moment they believed--even before they were baptized. I am not trying to say there is not any "more" to be had than simply being saved. (In other words, I'm not personally a cessationist!) Jesus clearly taught that the Holy Spirit would give His followers power and wisdom and discernment and many other gifts not part of one's own natural temperament. My only concern is that there not be a "formula" for receiving these gifts from God. I do not believe this is an issue over which to divide. I know and have worshiped with wonderful charismatic Christ-followers, and the fact that they believe in a specific second blessing (as opposed to these blessings coming at any time--including at the moment of conversion as in the case of Pentecost and Cornelius) is not an impediment to our honoring the Lord Jesus together at all. I believe along with them that God gives His gifts to us according to His will, and I am blessed by their ministry. I know that God manifests His power in His children when they trust and submit to Him. I totally agree with your statement above: "God doesn't depend on our puny theology to work in our lives, all it really takes is hunger for him and faith." Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6324 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, I agree wholeheartedly with your post above. I've heard that idea before about Jesus being empowered and living by the Holy Spirit as opposed to His own innate power and authority, and it completely makes Jesus out not to be fully God. Thank you for the post. Colleen | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 103 Registered: 4-2007 |
I guess I missed the "second blessing". I see baptism of the Spirit to be a deepening of what is already there. And yea, Jesus is fully God and fully man, if I said anything to the contrary it was unintentional. MarysRoses | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1073 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen, Oh how I am in total agreement with you about how there is no formula; you have never heard me rip into Pentecostals about some of the stuff that goes on. Nor is it anything to divide over, nor can we predict how or when God will do what he does seems to me. To tell you the truth, I do not understand this subject too much, I don’t even understand the tongues, how that works, word of knowledge, how that works nor even how God is working in my own life, not even why I am here. If you had said five years ago or so “River, you will be working with Adventist” I would have said you are out of your mind. In fact I would have said “What exactly is an Adventist?” So I never intended to put time or place on the event nor would I ever say that these gifts make one a quality above or below anyone else. The reason I called it a second event was under Philips ministry at Samaria, it is evident by just plain reading of the bible that these people had accepted Christ and been baptized in water, I believe when one accepts Jesus for who he is then Jesus will save him for he said that all that came to him he would not in anywise cast out, more people than me believe this, so then here comes Peter and John and whammo, another event. I know for a fact that it happened to me AFTER I was saved which only reinforces the way the Bible reads, I know that after the cross there is no difference between Jew and gentile. I know and you know that God can do this all in a split second of time, he has all power. I want to try to term this in another way, when we take our kids down to the lake for a swim, now I am sure you have done that, we watched the kids carefully, maybe sat on a blanket in the sun and just kept an eye on the kids as they played, the older one would go deeper while the baby might totter up to the water, carefully put a little foot in the water, jerk back and laugh, we watched him as he gingerly waded in about an inch of water. Some of us go into the water to the knees, some wade to the chest, but all the time there is water enough to swim in but from the start the water gradually gets deeper and deeper. However our parent (God) will always be watching that nothing happens to any of us. No need to be afraid of the water (Holy Spirit) but if you have faith for toe deep, that doesn’t make one any less loved than the baby would be over the older boy. All are beloved of the father. It is by the same Spirit we are all saved, we cannot divide the Spirit, he is not in two parts, two sections, ever how you want to put it. Some are slow to grow, some are fast starters and then get into trouble a few feet out the gate. Some are stunted by spiritual abuse, there is just no end to the things we could put down. I can mark within a twenty four hour period when I was drunk and then sober, pouring the coors down the sink, to church and to God (he too me?) and I can mark when a couple months later something else definitely did happen, But can I say definitively that this was the day or the hour in Gods mind? Of course I can’t. How deep can I go in the Spirit of God? Friends I don’t know, I feel like most the time I am still testing the water. I look at you Colleen and I see how much more adult in the word you are than me, I look at other folk and sometimes I feel like I have been left behind just a little bit. Sometimes I think God holds us back so we don’t get hurt just as I would have if one of my babies ventured to deep into the water. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1074 Registered: 9-2006 |
Marysroses, I agree. You must have posted that while I was writing the above, me agreeing with a Catholic, what is the world a comin too? River |
