| Author | Message | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 267 Registered: 7-2005  |
Has anyone ever tried giving point-blank warnings directly to an SDA, in the same way they give them to former SDAs? I mean did you ever say something like, "I'm very concerned for you because you're supporting and participating in an organization that elevates extra-Biblical writings to the level of Scripture, publishes a Bible that clearly adds words to the Holy Scriptures, and promotes a works-based salvation. I believe you're deceived." If you ever said anything like this to an Adventist, what kind of response did you get? Was there any effect at all? Did it make them start to doubt their belief system? Just curious whether this approach has ever worked for anyone. Maybe this is done on CARM all the time. I don't know, because I'm afraid to visit there. You all make it sound like it's stepping into the "ring," where you're sure to get a fight. Honestwitness | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1080 Registered: 9-2006  |
Other than carm, I am wondering just what forum one would use that would reach the eyes of many Adventist and I suspect few Adventist are on carm. I think proclamation! has the best chance of reaching the most Adventist, it is written by ex-adventist and surly this forum is looked at by Adventist just to see what or who might be here. So there are several web opportunities but I think Proclamation! has a really good chance of reaching where others fail. IMHO as always. That said you bring up an interesting idea, sort of like a declaration. It could be done by chain e-mail. I am wondering exactly what it would look like. River (Message edited by river on July 19, 2007) | ||
| Jamundson Registered user Username: Jamundson Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2007 |
I have been very confrontive to my SDA family in the past and am currently in a knock down drag out with my father in law. Frankly it appears hopeless. the truth of the following passage is all to evident. After this I intend to take a diferent direction....What that will be I am not sure. II Cor 3:12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit Jay | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 415 Registered: 11-2005 |
There is a part of me that wants to be as "bold" with Adventists as they are with former Adventists. The question, of course, is to whom? It seems to me that there are at least three classes of Adventists. 1. Those who really don't care. They like the culture and basically ignore the theology. 2. Those who "plug their ears" and are too proud to admit that they have been deceived. They can't fathom that what they have been taught is actually based on Ellen White, instead of the Bible. Their way of dealing with the incongruities is to deny that anything is wrong with their theology, and to attack anyone who exposes the falsehoods within Adventism. 3. Those who are troubled by the anomolies in Adventism, and are seeking truth. I am convinced that it is a waste of time to spend much time on class #1. Tell them once. If they don't care, move on. Class #2 is a waste of time as well, because their hearts are like the stoney ground. Class #3 will often react back in a way similar to #2, but for a different reason. They desperately want to believe that their belief system is the truth, but they have serious doubts. Like clinging to a sinking ship, they will still use the old arguments to see if just perhaps they are indeed valid. For example, just maybe Ellen White didn't have seizures. Apologists arguments appear on the surface to hold some merit. I think the key here is to keep focusing on Ellen White. Point out discrepancies like the fact that the seal of God is not the Sabbath, etc. There comes a time when this class of people will become sick and tired of Ellen White. At that point they have basically "written her off", and the effort thus far has been a success. She no longer has their support. That is the initial goal -- to make people sick of her. Then they are receptive to actually seeking truth. In my opinion, people who are in Adventism for the culture really don't care about the theology any more than most Mormons do. People in class #3 are going to be most receptive to Proclamation and websites that expose Adventism for the fraud that it is. Class #2 is passionate about what they perceive as truth. For them perhaps the best strategy is to encourage them to actually study their Bibles. For them, it is inconceivable that a person could actually leave Adventism and experience the Christian walk. For example, I like to dialog with my mother on the meaning of various Bible verses. What does Romans 8 actually say, for example. Adventists are not used to studying their Bibles, without running to Ellen White for an interpretation. Books such as Romans they have most likely never studied as a book. Topical study is all they know. Another class of people are non-Adventists. For these, "innoculation" is the key. 1. Each church leader needs to understand what Adventism really teaches. 2. Each doctor needs to be alerted to what heresies are actually promulgated in the innocent looking Bible Stories series that Adventists try to place in their offices. 3. The public needs to be alerted to the real motives behind 3ABN. 4. The public needs to be alerted to the real message of Adventism that is the ultimate purpose of Prophecy Countdown, Net Evangelism, and other similar evangelistic efforts. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6331 Registered: 12-2003  |
Gilbert, you have hit the nail exactly on the head. Those are the three "claases" of Adventists as I see it, too. And they react exactly as you say. My in-laws are class #2. They can quote Scripture to support themselves--never mind that it is out of context. They absolutely don't hear the truth of the Bible. I also believe that Proclamation and the internet are the most powerful tools for these people. While discussions are helpful with class #3, most Adventists I know need to study in private. They need to be able to read and ponder without the risk of others knowing they're asking questions. They may surface now and then with questions from their research, but most of the research must be done fairly privately. Eventually the weight of evidence becomes too heavy to bear without some relief and help. But Class #3 are the ones who are most likely to be open. Nevertheless, I believe conversations, Proclamation, and the example of changed lives plant seeds even in classes #1 and #2. Sometimes people in those classes eventually move to class #3, and their journey has begun. When God touches a heart, things change! Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 416 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen, you are right. Very good points. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 395 Registered: 5-2007 |
Good observation, Gilbert. I think you hit the nail on the head. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1086 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote:When God touches a heart, things change! Clap, Clap Clap!  He sure changed me! Hey, if he can reach down and touch a guy when he is dead drunk, think of what he can do with somebody who ain't even has a sniff? Whatever the class.Prayer is good. I suppose in a way they have/are being confronted. How many statements have they thrown out as "unworthy" How many messages however short have been disregarded, how many scriptures explained away to suit SDA? Actually they have a direct confrontation, it says Holy Bible on the cover. Buy them books and buy them books and all they do is eat the covers off. Shazzam! River | ||
| Jay_g Registered user Username: Jay_g Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2007 |
The problem with bold attacks are that they encourage the cult member. An adventist friend of mine came from Cuba and her father had been a pastor in Cuba. She said it was easier to hold on to your faith when everything was black & white. It's harder in the United States when everything seems gray. I remember some "Cult" accusations and it makes you hold on stronger to what you believe. "Satan is attacking our church because we have the truth, we are the remnant church" I remember talking to people in an Adventist College about the world Cult just meaning not in the main stream. "Jesus and his followers would have been a cult to the Jews at the time". I suppose the issue is still if someone is not ready to hear the message, they will not hear it. What we have to do is make sure that those who are ready hear at the right time. I think the seeds of this for me were planted 15 years ago, watered about 5 years ago when my Pastor who left the church passed away and I read some of what he wrote, and started to blossom just a few weeks ago when I started looking for information on the church in an attempt to explain where I came from. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 84 Registered: 4-2007 |
This is not on topic but I believe germane to Gilbert Jorgensen’s “That is the initial goal -- to make people sick of her. Then they are receptive to actually seeking truth.” This is a post I made on an other forum BIAS: “a particular tendency or inclination, esp. one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question;” “A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment.” Bias is not necessarily a dirty word, for instance: My bias is that God is the Creator; this bias absolutely prevents me from even considering that evolution is a valid alternative. With that said now comes the opinion thing. I believe that the SDA’s acceptance of the Authority of the writings of EGW is the bias which ‘prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question’. This bias prevents even considering the views that contradict established SDA positions as valid. The expulsion of those who expressed contrary views is a prime example of the result of this bias. JONVIL | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1089 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: My bias is that God is the Creator; this bias absolutely prevents me from even considering that evolution is a valid alternative. With that said now comes the opinion thing. I believe that the SDA’s acceptance of the Authority of the writings of EGW is the bias which ‘prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question’. This bias prevents even considering the views that contradict established SDA positions as valid. The expulsion of those who expressed contrary views is a prime example of the result of this bias. ***While the SDA acceptance of the authority of Ellen White is certainly a bias, Christianity is not based on a bias, the Holy Spirit within is a living witness to fact that God is our creator and borne out by that creator as fact. If Christ in us was based on a bias we would really have no more than they. I am not inclined to believe I am compelled to believe. While an SDA may feel compelled to believe the writings of Ellen White, they still remain a bias because it produces seeds of doubt and results in an inclination. The Holy Spirit in us produces seeds of faith and propels us forward under the creators own power. That produces fact not borne of inclination. River | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 85 Registered: 4-2007 |
***While the SDA acceptance of the authority of Ellen White is certainly a bias, Christianity is not based on a bias, the Holy Spirit within is a living witness to fact that God is our creator and borne out by that creator as fact. If Christ in us was based on a bias we would really have no more than they. I am not inclined to believe I am compelled to believe. While an SDA may feel compelled to believe the writings of Ellen White, they still remain a bias because it produces seeds of doubt and results in an inclination. The Holy Spirit in us produces seeds of faith and propels us forward under the creators own power. That produces fact not borne of inclination. River River - I’m really confused – do you think that I believe that Christianity is based on a bias??? JONVIL | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 86 Registered: 4-2007 |
River – perhaps you overlooked the fact that while for me ‘God is the creator’ is a TRUTH to the evolutionist it would be a bias that prevented me from accepting a contrary position, the validity of evolution. While SDAs consider ‘the Authority of EGW’ to be a TRUTH I considerate it to be a bias that prevents them from accepting the validity of a position contrary to an established position, i.e. the IJ. JONVIL | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1091 Registered: 9-2006 |
No Jonvil, i don't. Sorry if that was confusing. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1092 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well now I'm confused. Ha! I think I started out that way! . Oh well. River | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 35 Registered: 6-2007 |
I confronted my mom with those facts and it was like banging my head into a cement wall, very hard, and for a very long time. I finally quit. When my husband and I left the SDA church, we did manage to take 2 whole families with us. I know I am completely responsible for them leaving. At first, I was scared about what I had done, now I thank God they left with us. I shared my concerns with them over about a year long period. I was very straight forward with them in pointing out the errors in the SDA church and they left with us. One family had 2 kids, one had 4. I am so glad they got out. We all held many positions in the church, deacons, deaconesses, music leaders, prayer ministry leaders, pathfinder leaders, mens ministry, ladies ministry, SS teachers in kids and adults. So, some people do respond to the straight forward facts. Laurie |
