| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 147 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have attended an Assembly Of God Chruch in my area several times now over the past couple months. Primarily in support of my oldest son who recently joined that same church. They are a friendly group of people and I enjoy the sermons. The music is nothing like traditional SDA. It is lively, full instruments, guitars, drums, piano, organ, wind instruments etc. I am not too keen about the drums, but some of the music is outstanding. Anyway, the worship service tends to be emotional and uplifting. During an emotionally intense song, a lady in the choir started speaking in tongues for about 15 seconds. That was the first time I saw that. I did not know what to make of it. One part of me wants to accept it as genuine. Another part of me is suspicious. I wonder if it is real, induced, manifested emotions. What is it and where is it coming from? I listen to her diction. It did not sound like rambling random phonics. It sound like a language. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 515 Registered: 11-2004 |
You'll probably get differing viewpoints on this. For me tongues are real and they come from your spirit. I consider them to be a heavenly language. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 356 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am going to leave it to "individual liberty of conscience". I personally don't believe in tongues that way but I am not going to judge someone who does. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 148 Registered: 5-2007 |
Does the person speaking it know what they are saying? Can the person speaking control it? Hold it, delay it, recall it? Is it more of an event rather than a specific message? No one stood up to say they understood. In fact, they made no note of it (a lady speaking in tongues) at all. Which surprised me as well. I do not feel secure in this. If I were to speak in tongues like this lady did, I would likely be worried about it. No one has approached me about any need or coaxing on this (ability) subject. They are passive about such things (to their credit). This could be a "pull back" event for me unless I arrive at some level of comfort about it. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 149 Registered: 5-2007 |
I don't want to offend anyone about this. I know there are differing viewpoints. I am just being honest. I was awed and erie at the same time. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1058 Registered: 9-2006  |
Huh, if I had a "pull back" event every time I had some level of discomfort about something, I would pull myself into this office, slam the door and crouch in a corner. Actually thats just what I did for a few years, it don't work too good. River (Message edited by river on July 16, 2007) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 151 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, what are you 60 or 100 grit. Do you belong to the John Wanyne Book of the Month Club?  I am not talking about being a wimp or touchy feely. I am talking about not walking into another mistake. I do not assume anything, not anymore. Making an agressive statement of ones position is not an answer. "When short on facts, pound on the desk" | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1060 Registered: 9-2006 |
Bang, bang, bang, No Jim, not making fun of you, your post just reminded me of the difficulty's I myself am going through. Have been going through and probably will continue to go through. Fact is, it is in the valley where we grow the most. The answer to your question lays between Acts and revelation for starters. Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Corinthians I 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. Corinthians I 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Corinthians I 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? Corinthians I 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. Corinthians I 14:18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; Corinthians I 14:21 In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord. Corinthians I 14:22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. Corinthians I 14:23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? Corinthians I 14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. Do hope this gives you a start friend Jim. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2007 |
The person who (with the Lord's help) led me out of the Adventist church, prays in tongues sometimes. Having been raised an Adventist and having been one for over 50 years, I don't know what to think of speaking in tongues. This person says that those who recieve the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit, speak in tongues. I've already asked the Lord to "fill" me with the Holy Spirit, but after she told me that, I asked the Lord to "baptize" me with the Holy Spirit and stressed, IF IT WAS HIS WILL! And then I'd kind of CRINGE!!! When I cringed, I felt a bit guilty about it, but I just don't know what to think about speaking in tongues. It's SO FORIEGN to what I was brought up to believe as an Adventist Dianne | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 53 Registered: 4-2004 |
Hi Jim, I know what you are saying about being uncomfortable with tongues. The first church I attended regularly after leaving SDA was charismatic. I still haven't decided definitively my opinion on the spiritual gifts. I do believe that God answers prayer and that healing can happen. So I am not comfortable being a cessationist. Corinthians I 14:28 says if there is no interpreter present a speaker should be quiet. Was there any interpretation? In hindsight when I was attending the charismatic church too much of the focus was on the spiritual gifts, I spent a lot of time trying to figure them out. My primary focus was not on Jesus. After you leave the AOG church do you feel like you have learned more about Jesus? Have you learned more from the Bible? I think there are probably AOG churches and charismatic churches that do focus on Jesus and have very strong biblical teaching. But, like I said I think the primary focus needs to be Jesus. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 35 Registered: 7-2007 |
I agree with you Busymom; our focus needs to be on Jesus! River, I'm praying for you. (You refered to difficulties that you are going through.) Dianne | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1156 Registered: 4-2000  |
Jim, According to the Apostle Paul, tongue-speaking created "confusion" in the Corinthian church. His conclusion is that we do not worship a God of confusion (see I Cor. 14:33). "But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner" (verse 40). The Bible, God's voice speaking to us, is very clear and understandable for all His people. It is an all-sufficient, God-breathed revelation to man.
Tongue-speaking is akin to the para-scriptural writings attributed to Ellen White. As Christ-followers, we are no longer dependent upon another human being to dispense truth to us. In the truest sense, we are all prophets and priests under the New Covenant. The hallmark of the Protestant Reformation is the firm belief in the priesthood of all believers. Everything we need to know about salvation and godly living is already in the Bible for all to read and to appreciate. Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1061 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dennis, where did the apostle Paul say that tongue speaking was the cause of the confusion in the Corinthian Church, could you just pin that down for me? I can't seem to find the scripture where he said this. Also why do you think tongue speaking is akin to what Ellen White taught? Would you just pin that down for me? Another thing I would like to know is how much experience have you had with speaking in tongues for you to give this expert advise, Huh? Answer me this Dennis, if God gives the gifts to his church and apparently he does, are you above the caliber of Paul? He said he thanked God he spoke in tongues more than all of them. Saying that tongue speaking is anything near akin to what Ellen White taught is an insult to the Holy Spirit and an insult to me since the Holy Spirit has spoken regularly for 33 1/2 years as I yielded to him he has prayed not according to my understanding but the will of God Sir. River (Message edited by river on July 16, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1062 Registered: 9-2006 |
Folks, I am going clue you in about something, the same thing that I told my brother when he kept referring to tongues speaking as "Them old tongues" if you don't know anything about it, say nothing. It is not safe to insult the Holy Spirit of God. Don't do it. Just let it be. If I didn't care I wouldn't say this. River | ||
| Jay_g Registered user Username: Jay_g Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2007 |
I'm going to resist commenting because I realized where I got my information on Speaking in Tongues, from Adventist teachers, who probably got their opinions from Ellen White. On a side note I ended up looking a two colleges really seriously, the SDA school I ended up going to and a small Christian School that specialized in communications. My ONLY reason for not going to the 2nd one was when the application it said "we believe in the Baptism on the Holy Spirit" and that scared me. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1158 Registered: 4-2000 |
Jay, Tongue-speaking and visioning are closely related in being supernatural. There is historical evidence that some early Adventist pioneers were involved in both phenomena. This is another missing fact at Revelation Seminars. Dennis Fischer | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 516 Registered: 11-2004 |
Jim02 asked "Does the person speaking it know what they are saying? Can the person speaking control it? Hold it, delay it, recall it? Is it more of an event rather than a specific message? " I don't know about everyone, but I'll give my perspective on the prayer tongues. Can I control it? Yes, I can start and stop at will. Sometimes it does bubble up from my spirit on it's own. But I could quench that or stop that if I desired. Hold it, delay it, recall it? I don't think so. Is it more of an event rather than a specific message? - Not sure what you mean here. It is a way to pray. Your spirit prays. Sometimes I receive an interpretation as I pray in tongues. There is more than one kind of tongues (i.e. prayer tongues, tongues that need interpretation in church). I was wary of tongues when I first ran into someone talking in tongues. Supernatural things can be confusing, but supernatural things don't equal wrong things. We are to judge everything by the Word. There is a lot of fake stuff or junk out there, but that doesn't mean it is all fake or all junk. I can attest that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is real and tongues are real and of God. There may be fakers out there, but the fakers don't change the reality. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6306 Registered: 12-2003  |
I am SO not an expert in the area of charismatic gifts. I personally have never spoken in tongues. But I have actually made a point to study this whole phenomenon because I keep bumping into it. I'm sure my current understanding will seem offensive in one way or another to people on both ends of the spectrum, but for what it's worth, here's my current understanding which I admit is not written in stone (ha!--bad joke!). On the Reformed theology end of the spectrum, the belief is that the "sign gifts" (tongues, healings, words of knowledge and wisdom, faith, and miracles, etc.) ended at the end of the 1st century after the church was formed. They were needed as the signs of God's authority for the fledgling church, giving credence to the apostles' preaching of Christ as the Savior and the Cornerstone of the new reality: the church. They are no longer needed since we now have the completed canon of Scripture, the entire word of God—both Old and New Covenants—and supernatural signs are no longer needed to confirm God's will. On the other end of the spectrum, many Pentecostals say not only that the "sign gifts" are still for today, they even say that speaking in tongues is THE MARK of being filled with the Holy Spirit, that if one has not spoken in tongues, they have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Most charismatics, even those who do not insist toungues are THE mark of the Holy Spirit, do teach something called the "second blessing", an event following being born again when the Holy Spirit comes on them in power and manifests Himself in them through one or more gifts, often tongues, but not necessarily including tongues. I've read authors from both sides of the spectrum, and I've also interacted with true Christ-followers from both ends of the spectrum and from various positions between the ends of the spectrum. I haven't arrived at a total definition of how all this "works", but I have concluded one thing--so far, at least. I believe that the teaching of the "second blessing" is not based on sound hermeneutics. Now, I do believe that the Holy Spirit fills us and equips us with special power and gifts for the work He calls us to do, and these special fillings or equippings can happen many times as needed throughout a lifetime. The special event of a second blessing, however, I do not see as a Scripturally-supported occurance. I'm not saying people don't have genuine experiences of being filled with the power of the Holy Spirit in a definitive way, but I don't see a specific "second blessing" as a normative event for all Christ-followers. In fact, in reading some publications by a well-known Pentecostal preacher, the late Kenneth Hagin, I have been really uncomfortable with some of the ways he handles Scripture and with the ways he defines terms that I see differently in the Bible from the way he describes them. While I am not dismissing charismatic gifts, I do not see consistent Biblical support for a specific "second blessing" event. I believe, in fact, that this teaching confuses some people and may even obscure some of the real ways the Holy Spirit works. Interestingly, I have recently spoken with a charismatic pastor about some of these issues, seeking to understand from his persepctive. He says that a great many things happen in the name of God that are NOT of God. A great many Pentecostal manifestations and movements or experiences have actually been powered by something other than the Holy Spirit. He points out, however, that while counterfeits and abuses happen, there is a real experience that we musn't "throw out" with the false. I find that I fall in the category of "open but cautious". I see no evidence from the Bible that the charismatic gifts of the Spirit ended after Pentecost and the first decades of the founding of the church. 1 Corinthians 14:39-40 states, "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. but everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way." Some say that the Biblical gift of tongues is strictly foreign languages which God enables one to speak without knowing the language as a means of proclaiming the gospel. Certainly this is what happened at Pentecost. 1 Cor. 14:13-18, however, suggests that there is a form of tongues that is not necessarily a known language, that it is something one does as the Holy Spirit moves one as an act of worship. It is never to be disruptive nor done in public without interpretation. He is also clear that the gifts of instruction, revelation, and tongues are for the strengthening of the church (1 Cor. 14:26). On the other hand, Paul is equally clear that the gifts of tongues are not to be sought out especially. 1 Cor 12:11 clearly says all the gifts are "the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines". God Himself decides who gets what gift. We do not choose our spiritual gifts. Further, Paul is clear that we do not all receive the same gifts, nor is there a gift that all receive. 1 Cor 12:29-31: "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracls? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts." At this point, I believe that the "sign gifts" are gifts God still gives the church today. I personally know quite a few people who are growing, Bible-based, grounded Christ-followers with powerful teaching ministries, who preach and teach inductively on a regular basis, rightly dividing the word of truth, as Paul puts it. And these people privately do speak in tongues, at least sometimes. I cannot dismiss their tongue-speaking as counterfeit manifestations from Satan. To do so would put me in a position of possibly attributing the work of God to Satan. I cannot do that. The Bible clearly allows for tongues. I am wary of anyone, however, who "demands" that all speak in tongues or that I must have a "second blessing" event. When we are born again, we receive the Holy Spirit. There is no more or less of Him that we can receive. What I believe happens, however, is that as we grow in trust, we open up more and more of our hearts and memories to Him for healing. The more we submit our lives, our relationships, our dreams, our desires, our temptations, our identities to Him, the more of His power and peace and wisdom we experience. I believe that as we learn not to fear Him and not to fear our own selves and our own weaknesses, knowing His holds us in His hands and heals us with His power, the more we will be able to deeply worship and praise Him, not just with our heads but with our spirits. I do not believe that a lack of the gift of tongues means a person is afraid or disbelieving. Neither do I believe that the true experience of tongues is a spiritual deception. (By the way, J.I. Packer's book, Keep In Step with the Spirit is very interesting reading on this topic.) What actually matters is our trust in the Lord Jesus. When we submit to Him and offer ourselves as living sacrifices, willing for Him to accomplish His will and empower us as He wills, He will give us His gifts that are not merely our natural talents. He personally equips us with the gifts He sovereignly decides He wants us to have. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1063 Registered: 9-2006 |
Very well written letter Colleen, I think you have a firm grasp on this situation and the scripture concerning this, I admire the approach you have taken on this subject, it is a humble sound approach that you have taken. While I disagree with you on the point that a “second blessing” (or) “second event” is not sound hermeneutics due to the events in and around act 8:5, Acts 8:14,15 and 16 and many more clearly mark it as a “second event”. While Philip preached Christ to those at Samaria, Peter and John followed up with a “second event” for those new Christians as clearly indicated in Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. I think it is clear that these men and women had received the preaching of Philip and were Baptized in the name of Jesus and THEN Peter and John follows up with Acts 8:16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. They clearly has received Christ and been baptized before this event. It is unsound hermeneutics when we do not follow the course of the bible in its entirety, that is, if the word hermeneutics means what I think it does, I think the opposite of the word is heresy (or) wrong approach, if someone could help me with a fuller explanation of the word, it would be appreciated. While as you said very well Colleen, we are not to seek tongues expressly, for again, that would be bad hermeneutics, the Bible does not teach or imply that we should. All that said in my experience with this and having received this gift and the early training, I have seen much abuse of this gift, where it appeared people sought the gift and not the giver and where people had gotten off track from sound bible hermeneutics and the situation had seemed to me to become “unsound”, further more it is my opinion that people can “become unsound” either singly and in groups, I think this has been proven over and over again where people have become “unsound and unstable” and I believe that anytime we drift away from “sound bible hermeneutics” we are subject to becoming unsound and unstable, again pleading some ignorance to the word “hermeneutics”. But regardless of whether Colleen is correct or I am correct regarding a “second event” I think there has been much abuse and much misunderstanding of this gift as well as all the other gifts that God gives us whether it be teaching, preaching, even time and money that we that we should have been more serious with, I KNOW I am guilty of unsound bible hermeneutics, failure to use properly what God has given me, saints, I fall so far short its pathetic is what it is. I will tell you where I think this fits in with Adventism, many of you have confessed to teaching the wrong things, teaching Adventism. What I fail to see is the difference in abuse, abuse is abuse. In spite of all this, the Holy Spirit is here to stay, tongues and all these other gifts is real and of the Father and needs to be taken seriously regardless of the abuse that has gone on just as the Bible needs to be taken seriously. The bible says in Corinthians I 14:22 Therefore tongues *are for a sign*, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. These tongues and interpretations are for a sign to the unbeliever who when he/she comes into the body of believers his/her very thoughts are made manifest, but if everybody speaks in tongues at once, like the writer said “will they not say that you are out of your mind?” Corinthians I 14:23. Tongues being a sign for the unbeliever, then where does that leave the professing believer who mocks, spurns or denies the works of the Holy Spirit and even to declaring it from the evil one. I have personally witnessed the mocking of the Holy Spirit in a church setting, I had no idea the man was mocking the Spirit, but immediately there came in tongues and interpretations the words “God will not be mocked” and other words I do not remember and the man rushed to the alter begging Gods forgiveness. I knew the man personally as an unbeliever” what scared me out of my wits were the words “God will not be mocked” friend I took note of that. That was years ago but I still remember it as if it was only yesterday. I have heard all kinds of remarks about the tongues and other gifts of the Holy Spirit, mocking’s and open spurning and criticism and leering and condemnation by so called professing believers in the blessing and mercy’s of our Lord, claiming his grace out of one side of the mouth and condemnation of his Holy Spirit and those blessed of God with these gifts out of the other side of his mouth. I have even heard this coming out of the mouths of theologians, so called. This ought not to be, regardless of the abuse, God will not be mocked, how can we find excuse for that seeing there are bibles aplenty. At what time have any of us failed to have a bible, surely not since salvation came. Denial, mocking, spurning, leering, cajoling, condemnation, criticism of those who do not speak in tongues, attributing his acts to the evil one and such things, we can look for excuse, but I think we will be hard put to find excuse for it in the word of God. There are all kinds of abuses going on all the time in churches and out of churches, but as Colleen said “open but cautious” being the key word here, we need have no fear of the workings of the Holy Spirit, right on the other hand we better be wary of denying or mocking him in any way shape or form. He is a person, not an “it”. I think the words “God will not be mocked” coming to that young man that day meant that “you may well do it but know this, you will not get away with it”. He angered God that day I believe. I think this subject needed to be dealt with head on, who knows whether or not Jim was prompted by the Holy Spirit to ask these direct questions about these things, I rather am convinced that it was the Holy Spirit and I believe the Holy Spirit is working in his life today and the Holy Spirit will teach him what he wants him to know. I don’t fear the Holy Spirit being defeated, but we all have our struggles. There are folks making their way out of Adventism into different settings and it is better to deal with it head on, folks on here deal with other controversial subject readily enough. I have been used of the Holy Spirit among groups of thirty or forty, as low as eight or Ten as well as thousands in the gift of tongues and interpretations over a long period of years and I am not an interpreter, I do not have that gift and yet I have interpreted at times and I confess to you I still do not have a handle on it, I can’t figure it out why God uses me in the Gift of tongues and not be able to interpret most of the time. So before I do allow this gift to operate I sit there and sweat wanting to know if there is an interpreter present and I think I have taken to falling out of faith with this by trying to hard to be correct and not just going ahead with the prompting of the Holy Spirit. What happened in your situation Jim is that the people around the lady you referred to knew that she was praying in tongues to God and not using the gift of tongues and interpretation, so no one paid any attention to it, people in a setting where they are used to these gifts just automatically know the difference. It is a two part thing. 1. Praying in the Holy Spirit. 2. Tongues and interpretations where the Holy Spirit himself desires to speak. I wish I could give you a more through explanation, a readily understandable formula. Yes, the spirit can be quenched by a person or (controlled) and it can be delayed for a certain amount of time to wait for the right time so as not to interrupt a minister or other believers in their speaking, this must be done in order, never should we interrupt a minister or anyone else with this while they are speaking, it is to be held until the opportune time, God will make a space himself, I know this for a fact and borne out by the word “decently and in order”. The lady that was doing this was probably, and I say, probably out of order, I wasn’t there and I don’t know how loud and interruptive she was with it, but using common sense it apparently interrupted you so you see? I don’t see where the Bible necessarily forbids praying in tongues in church but it does forbid getting loud, interruptive and out of order, it interrupts the flow of the service of worship which is also of God and too God. This I believe was what Paul was teaching about being decent and in order, he was not necessarily speaking of tongues per say but in all the gifts and actions we might take in a church setting, there is just no place where he attacked or forbid speaking in tongues in church or any place else, he said rather to “Let him speak to himself and to God” it is a form of private prayer just as we don’t sit in church all praying in English at once although I sometimes pray in my heart all through the service as well as some of you might. Sometimes I pray for certain people during church service, I even prayed for you, but can you imagine the interruption to the service if I prayed for you aloud? “Oh dear lord please bless Jim and guide him this day, help him in his walk (yelling this all out or talking loudly), I would have been prompted by my neighbor with an elbow and told to shut up! There is no difference in everybody praying aloud at once in English or in tongues, it is a cacophony of voices, it is disruptive of thought and basically it tends to unscrew a man’s head. That is what Paul was struggling with there at Corinth, disorder. I am just guessing but he probably came there and heard it for himself because God wanted him to get hold of the thing and teach them the correct way. Some Pastors will call you down in a New York minute for that, I know because I have been called down, one time in a service of about four hundred people I thought I was to bring a message in tongues so I did, the Pastor looked right at me and pointed his finger at me and said “That’s for you brother, speak to yourself” I have never been so embarrassed in my life, ever, as to be humiliated in front of four hundred or so people. I think I actually molded into that seat, But you see I was inexperienced and God had to teach me the difference. I am easily embarrassed to the point that it is painful but God would not allow me to be crestfallen to the point it disabled me from ever obeying him again, he protects us and teaches us at the same time as long as we will remain teachable. Some are not teachable, but it is my desire that I remain teachable and to have a teachable and corrective spirit, I can’t hold much respect for an un-teachable and non-corrective spirit it is just hard to tolerate. People with a stubborn spirit who just plow on, no longer correctable either by people or the word of God nor the Holy Spirit himself are hard to deal with and hard to be around for long. Crow don’t taste good but it is good for you. This thing of reading our Bibles with our preconceived notions is a real problem, I can testify to that fact because I realized that fact on coming here and reading these posts, mainly I had preconceived notions on the covenants, boy did I ever! I see it in you folks and I see it in me. I think that is our biggest problem. Scary but true. I have said enough. River | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 153 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, Cooleen, Dennis, everyone: Really good feedback. Very helpful ! Processing............. Thank You. |
