| Author | Message | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 100 Registered: 5-2007  |
Hypothetical question: If a boatload of SDA folks are traveling eastward from American Samoa and cross the international date line right at Friday at sunset, it is now Sunday morning, Biblically speaking. So, the questions is, do they skip keeping the Sabbath? If they do the same thing on the Sabbath traveling westward, it is Saturday again when they cross the line. So do they observe two Sabbath's in a row? Phil  | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 101 Registered: 5-2007 |
Another odd question: (concerning the Day Of Atonement) Since God set up the most of the feast days including the Day Of Atonement and he also laid out the Hebrew calendar which is used to determine when to celebrate these feasts, who do the SDA people blame for not knowing the right date for the Day Of Atonement? (It should be assumed that if God really did set Oct. 22, 1844 as the Day Of Atonement, he would have used the calendar system he himself set up, as laid out in the Bible.) 1. God delegated to the Jews to look for the first new moon after the ripening of the barley harvest in Israel. Do they blame the Rabbi's for not knowing what ripe grain or a new moon looks like? 2. Do they blame God for not knowing how to use his own calendar? 3. Or, do they admit that EGW (and William Miller) asked the wrong person for this information? Has any SDA theologian or church official responded to this issue? Phil | ||
| Luzisbornagain Registered user Username: Luzisbornagain Post Number: 45 Registered: 7-2007 |
LOL  | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 102 Registered: 5-2007 |
Even another "what if": I spent a year Aleutians and quickly noticed that the sun was almost never visible because of the permanent fog bank. What if you were an Adventist shipwreck there without any way to determine sundown or sunrise. How would you know when the Sabbath starts and ends? While there, I was on a ground Search and Rescue Team and trained in wilderness survival which included a total meat diet. There is nothing else. So the Adventist had better become a meat eater real quick and learn to like seagull. Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1018 Registered: 9-2006  |
Well Phil, Don't you know an Adventist can worm his way around anything? And when it comes to eatin seagull, he will just "wing it". Heh, Heh. Happy turtle soup to ya Phil. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3955 Registered: 3-2004  |
Phil, On CARM these things have been discussed and I cannot remember a coherent response from any SDA. As River wrote, they worm their way around it. As a member of Civil Air Patrol, I did learn search and rescue techniques. That was interesting and fun. I even went out on the weekends, with my son, to learn these. This was around the time my name was taken off the church books and I did not know it. But I felt we were learning something that God wanted us to learn to help our fellow men. Yeh, The SDA do worm around these things you asked. Diana | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 66 Registered: 4-2007 |
The international dateline is indeed even more thorny than the 'what ifs' already mentioned. Its entirely a man-made abstraction, without any natural marker whatsoever to locate it. It was put in the middle of the 'empty' pacific so as to be as far away as possible from centers of culture and commerce (to European ways of thinking anyway). Its also subject to civil legislation and personal convenience. It also totally undermines any idea that a day of the week could be a test of loyalty to a divine command. Adventists have this idea that a person must keep Saturday as the seventh-day sabbath to fulfill the command. In the western hemisphere, below the arctic circle, that doesn't seem difficult. It gets stickier however, the further west one travels. The sets on Friday evening in Jerusalem, the sabbath begins. The line of sunset goes westward bringing sabbath with it. This continues around the world until at aproximately a bit west of the longitude of New Guinea, then sunset doesn't bring sabbath it brings SUNDAY. Mhmphm...... same sunset, same sun, but at sunset on Fiji, a few miles west of Samoa, it is Saturday evening, not Friday evening. It gets even stickier yet. In Hawaii, on Saturday, Adventists are going to Church and doing whatever it is they do on sabbath. At the very same moment in time, on the same day, south of Hawaii, is an island named Kiribati. A few years ago, the legislature of Kiribate decided for the convenience of merchants and travel, to MOVE the international dateline from the West side of the island to the East. So now Kiribati is a day ahead of Hawaii, even though its in the very same time zone. So while sabbatarians in Hawaii are worshipping on Saturday morning, at the very same hour just south of them, Sunday keeping "babylonians" are happily worshiping on SUNDAY morning. http://worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/dateline.htm Hawaii and Kiribati both lie along the 160' longitude line. I wonder if Hawaiian SDAs realize that as they are going to church on sabbath morning, so are all the Sunday keepers just south of them in Kiribati. It boggles the mind that God is smiling on the Hawaiians and condemning the Kiribatis who are worshiping on the same day under the same sun at the same hour. All the other dateline/sabbath issues also add up. The fact that sabbatarians in the eastern hemisphere are observing sabbath before it arrives in Jerusalem, which is problematic. How do you find it where there's no sunset for weeks at a time? And my favorite - When is it sabbath in space? Thats not just being facetious, more and more people are venturing into space. The Israeli astronaut kept sabbath during the time it was sabbath in Jerusalem, during his time in space. But if sabbath is when its sabbath in Jerusalem, or at least the western hemisphere, that leaves Adventists in Asia worshiping on the FIRST DAY of the week. I think Adventists are looking in the wrong place for fixing the beast power that moved the sabbath. The Kiribati legislature moved it in 1990's by moving the dateline! They must be the beast! (tongue firmly in cheek). Seriously, its ok to move the day as long as you still call it Saturday? The most coherent SDA answer seems to be 'keep sabbath where you are' (ignoring that civil authorities can change the day at their whim). Another answer is "do your best, its the intention" (yet the best intentions of Sunday keepers aren't good enough?). This all gets sillier and sillier, the difficulty of pinning down 'Saturday' out around the dateline and in other places without consistent sunsets. This is the test our salvation rests on (according to Adventists) yet we can't be sure of when it is if we venture outside of the western hemisphere? (south of the arctic and north of the antarctic of course). MarysRoses | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1921 Registered: 10-2004  |
Marysroses, Interesting. So the SDAs on Kiribati keep the Sabbath on what the Hawaiians call Sunday! Also, I've heard that the Adventists themselves actually changed the dateline on "their" island of Pitcairn! Jeremy | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 660 Registered: 6-2006  |
Great points Mary! I believe that if you're going to take ownership of a covenant that was given to Isreal, then you should "keep" the laws according to Isreal. That means, ignore whatever timeline the US is on and keep the Sabbath at the same time Isreal does. If you're going to do it, then go all the way with it...none of this "halfway" stuff... In addition I would keep the other 603 laws as well. Leigh Anne | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 67 Registered: 4-2007 |
Phil, As far as counting the days of the prophecies. When I was seriously doubting Adventism, but still clinging and wanting to prove to myself that it was the truth, I undertook a project for myself. So many people told me that they had no doubts because of how perfectly the Adventist interpretation of prophecies work out. So I undertook to VERIFY by using secular historical sources, the dates and events in the Adventist prophecy timeline. I undertook this project WANTING it all to work out, so my bias if any was towards verification, not problem finding. I found that claims of precision and that "because it comes out 'perfectly' it therefore MUST be true" are as full of holes as anything else in Adventism. One of the first problems I noted was that the Hebrew calendar (lunar) used when the prophecies were written was not the calendar (solar) used to calculate the dates. The number of days in a month and months in a year vary between them, sometimes significantly. Because of the extra month added at times to the lunar calendar, I did not consider this a fatal flaw, but it would definitely reduce the precision of the end result. I found many inconsistencies and problems. One of them was very clear and i'll use it as an example... the use of the date of 538 a.d. for the 'establishment' of the papacy. Research it, and you will find the only groups seriously using that as a date for the establishment of the papacy are groups supporting Adventist views of prophecy interpretation. Among the many problems with the date: It was not the first such proclamation or edict. The Code of Theodosius was prior to this by a century. The Code of Justinian changed nothing about the papacy not already established by earlier laws. The Code of Justinian was issued and amended and has several dates that could be used.. But 538 A.D. is not even one of those. It is actually the year one of many battles between the Roman empire and the northern invaders happened. The battle turned the tide against one out of many of the northern tribes. This battle isn't one considered significant enough by historians to stand out against the many other battles of those times, there were battles before and after. Again, the only persons who find it an unusually significant battle are those supporting Adventist prophecy interpretations. Search it, and you find dozens of 'bible prophecy' sites, but few if any historical sites referencing it. TRY IT! Google 538 A.D. The sites that pop up are discussing Adventist and Adventist derived ideas of prophecy. The first secular historical reference for 538 A.D. is referring to an event in Japanese history. So, the date was chosen not for historical significance, but because it fit. I saw this pattern many times. If you can play loose with the facts, you can 'prove' anything with 'precision'. MarysRoses | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6252 Registered: 12-2003  |
Interesting, MarysRoses. I remember as an ADventist thinking about the dateline dilemma, and my conclusion was always that God would only ask me to keep the Sabbath according to where I was—every seventh day wherever I was. I think thie craziness of this situation really comes into focus when Adventists say (a la EGW) that we will keep the Sabbath in heaven and then cite Isaiah 66 to prove it. Revelation 21 and 22, though, say there will be no night in the New Jersualem because the Lamb will be its light, and there'll be no need for sun or moon. Since the New Jerusalem is His bride, it does seem safe to assume that we'll be there if we're in heaven. Now, where are the days even to count to seven? No days! No seventh day...I've had people argue that if we travel outside the New Jerusalem we'll keep Sabbath every seventh day, but Isaiah 66 says the nations will come to Jerusalem to worship... If one can't see the OT prophetic language (including the New Moon also mentioned in Is 66) as foreshadowing Jesus, and worshiping on those Jewish holy days as being subsumed in worshiping Jesus Himself, one really gets confused. (And there's the whole millennial kingdom issue that Adventists don't deal with, either.) Leigh Anne, your conclusion is the only one that makes sense! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3959 Registered: 3-2004 |
That is what many have asked of the SDA who write on CARM. So far I have not read a response that makes sense or they ignore or dodge the question. So glad I, and the rest of you are no longer there. God is so awesome when we rest in Him on a daily basis. Diana | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 68 Registered: 4-2007 |
I think sabbath keepers in Kiribati would be observing when its Friday in Hawaii. It *IS* confusing, probably one reason more SDAs don't see the problems surrounding sabbath keeping and the dateline. MarysRoses | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 103 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thank you Maysroses, I have pondered these anomalies for years, especially when I served a tour of duty on Adak, Alaska and saw for myself there was no way to see by my own observation when a day began or ended. You provided all the details that I suspected were true. Isn't it wonderful and thoughtful of our savior to move our "rest" from a day to himself before all this silliness could confuse the issue of how, when or where to rest?  Phil | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 364 Registered: 11-2005 |
Phil - http://adventist.org.au/about_adventists/history/adventism_in_the_south_pacific/cook_islands
http://www.truthorfables.com/Sabbath_is_Friday.htm
Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Luzisbornagain Registered user Username: Luzisbornagain Post Number: 46 Registered: 7-2007 |
thank the Lord that I don't have to worry about my location on the earth to just worship Him. Talk about pointless technicalities. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1146 Registered: 4-2000  |
Excellent post, MarysRoses! Truly, the Jewish Sabbath was never intended to be observed outside of the borders of Ancient Israel. Jeremy, I think it was Dudley Canright who reported that the first Adventist missionaries to Pitcairn Island deliberately moved the International Dateline so that the Polynesian natives would not have to change their weekly day off on Sundays. Now with major sex crime convictions on Pitcairn Island, revealed initially by a Scotland Yard woman detective in recent years, the General Conference isn't bragging about it being 100 percent SDA any longer. The Voice of Prophecy organization has been excited and supportive of this alleged SDA island paradise for many years. However, this feather in their hat is no longer respected. In truth, the whole place is a major disgrace to Adventism. It has been so for many years, but only investigated in recent years. Indeed, Pitcairn Island is NOT an Adventist paradise in the South Pacific as they claimed for more than a century. Some of the sex crimes dated back forty years. When Sylvia and I visited the General Conference headquarters in Takoma Park in 1970, there was a dominant lobby display about Pitcairn Island. Yes, there were even books written about this supposedly SDA island paradise. Olive Christian, speaking on behalf of the Pitcairn women reported, "We all thought sex was like food on the table." Dennis Fischer | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 69 Registered: 4-2007 |
I was aware some early Adventists in the south pacific kept Sunday as it most closely corresponded with sabbath in the western hemisphere. I know SDAs in Australia and China from online chat rooms, and they are currently keeping whatever time the local Saturday falls on, usually Friday 'our' time here in the west. Is that consistent? I one tagnet chatroom that posts an online Sabbath countdown begins it at sunset Friday local time in New Zealand and ends it with sunset Saturday on some Aleutian island. I've also hear that the local SDA conference in Norway was seeking to set sabbath as beginning and ending at 6 p.m. local time, as in the winter 'sabbath' was beginning so early on friday as to disrupt school and work, sometimes this would be as early as 11 o'clock friday morning. I'd be interested if someone has any first hand information. MarysRoses | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2007 |
About Pitcairn, I remember thirteenth sabbath appeals for special projects on Pitcairn Island. As a teen, I found a handpainted leaf in an old bible that belonged to an elderly SDA lady that had died and left her books to the SDA church library that was a 'thank you' from the Pitcairn islanders for one of these projects. MarysRoses | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1922 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thanks for the details about the dateline change, Dennis. Marysroses, you're right it would be on the Hawaiians' Friday. So that means that the SDAs in Hawaii observe the Sabbath on the day that is Sunday in Kiribati. Jeremy |
