| Author | Message | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 225 Registered: 5-2007 |
Had a wonderful morning at the SDB church, heard a wonderful sermon about freedom in Christ. Went afterwords to the Adventist Church just to fellowship because I still love the people there and still consider them friends, my problems are 100% theological. I was asked by someone where I have been and I told the truth, that I have been going to SDB church because I cannot accept EGW and it really bothers me the way she is quoted all the time and the Sabbath school quarterlies are mostly EGW and very little Bible. How I hear nothing but Bible at the SDB church and this is where the Lord is leading me and I must follow. But I made it clear that I still want to fellowhip with them because I love everyone there and it's not about anything someone did or didn't do, it's all theology. This person who is a PK, by the way responded with how she is impressed that I have the courage to do that and she wished she could. Praise God! Another lady, who is friends with my wife overhead and asked is this final? I said pretty much so and then she said she wants to visit with my wife and I and talk to me about this(my conversion to the Seventh Day Baptist Church) SHe said if I don't like EGW just go with the Bible only, I don't have to go to the SDB church to do that. What??? Doesn't she realise it's IMPOSSIBLE to ignore EGW in the SDA church. Then a man who is a Medical Doctor was talikng about how the Bible says Adam was 15 feet tall. I said no, I don't see that in the Bible and he finally admitted no it's not Bible, EGW wrote it. Excuse me but yes, MAYBE Adam was 15 feet tall, but we DON'T KNOW. The Bible DOESN'T SAY. Don't Adventists get it that IF the Bible is silent on something maybe it's something, God has seen fit for us not to know, maybe we don't NEED to know. Isn't the Bible enough???? Now I'm wondering just what this lady is going to tell my wife next Sabbath when she goes to church there. I don't like the way this is going. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3898 Registered: 3-2004  |
Just pray about it. All we have to live is this 24 hours. God does not want us worrying about tomorrow. And we cannot do a thing about yesterday. Pray and pray some more. Diana | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 634 Registered: 6-2006  |
Reb, if anything comes of it, you can just take it as an opportunity to tell her that you go to church to WORSHIP Jesus, (not get EGW "instructions") and you're not getting that at the SDA church. You can be sweet and loving, and hopefully she'll back down. What I'd like to know is, how can anyone argue with the *Bible only*? Also, why do SDA's say that EGW does not add to the Bible, when many (including my husband) get confused about certain texts? The 14 feet tall myth, the serpent having wings. (I know there are many more) How is that NOT adding to the Bible when these people really believe it? | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 305 Registered: 11-2005 |
Reb - Just my own opinion ... I tried going to both the Baptist and Seventh-day Adventist churches for a while. I found, in my own case, that it sent very confusing signals both to my wife, and to others. For my Adventist friends (and my wife as well) it confirmed just what they were saying -- that the particular SDA church I was leaving allowed for a rich diversity of viewpoints, including ignoring things I did not believe in like the "inspiration of Ellen White" and "1844 and the Investigative Judgement". At the local level they are trying hard to accommodate both Historical Adventists and Evangelical Adventists. They see no need for anyone to "leave" the Adventist "ark of safety". The fact I continued for a time confirmed that I, for example, was accepted with my particular set of views. The fact of the matter is that the Adventist system is NOT congregational. It is hierarchical, and the sheep can play as much they want within certain parameters. For example, if the pastor actually speaks out against Ellen White on any subject he will immediately be chastized by the local conference, and so own. The freedom to follow the Bible only is imaginary. It is patently obvious that Adventists add what Ellen White says to their understanding of the Bible -- otherwise they wouldn't need her! Once I "cut loose" and started attending just the Baptist church I sent a much clearer message to my wife. She still attends the local SDA church, but each Sunday she accompanies me the the Baptist church as well. And most importantly she is noticing for herself the difference between the two. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 969 Registered: 9-2006  |
Reb, You might take what Gilbert just said very seriously. None of us can tell you how you should follow God nor neither is that the desire of anyone that I can see. In a multitude of councilers there is wisdom. River | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 226 Registered: 5-2007 |
Gilbert makes some good suggestions. It may come to that, my attending only the Seventh Day Baptist Church at some point. By the way, my wife and I had a discussion this morning that started out with politics. We are both Democrats, with my wife being the more conservative one. She was taling again about how great it will be when Hillary Clinton is the next president.(I don't trust Hillary and want Bill Richardson as the Democratic nominee and next President). I also told my wife a am no longer a leftist politically like I used to be. When I was an Adventist I was in such terror of the Sunday Laws and the Evangelical Christians and Republicans that I belived would bring them about that I was as far to the left in the Democratic party as one could go without being an out and out Socialist. This was strictly driven by FEAR of the Sunday Laws. I remember listening to Air America, the Leftist talk radio network and going Amen! to every denounciation of Conservative Christians by the Left as I was SO AFRAID of them and the Sunday Laws. Since leaving Adventism and not having the terror of the Sunday Laws driving me I have moved to the centre polictically. And I even told my wife this morning I am no longer afraid of Republicans because I no longer believe in or am living in terror of the SUnday Laws. Praise God! My wife then brought up the pork thing again as Seventh Day Baptists do not keep the Levitical food laws. I quoted Rom 14 again to my wife and also other scripture where Paul says, "when visiting an unbeliever do not be afraid to eat anything they offer." You know what I got from her, "Paul was a new convert and he didn't know what he was talking about and he was ingnoring God's word" I said but Paul's writings are part of the Bible. She counter with they are the words of Paul, not God. But they're part of the BIble???? Is she telling me to ignore part of the Bible???? Then she went on about how the Seventh Day Baptists were 150 yrs. before EGW was born and they don't have the institutions, hospitals, universities, schools, etc. worldwide to spread mental and physical "healing" and "good news" that the Adventists do. They didn't build like the Adventists do so what do they do with their tithes, she accused the SDBs of corruption with their tithes because they don't have institutions like the SDAs do. I asked oh yeah, what about the Folkenberg scandal? SHe countered with there are no Adventist millionaires. WHAT???? I said well, the SDBs don't have the members worldwide that the SDAs do and I mentioned an incident that happened in an African country a few years ago where the Adventists, who were cozy with the dictator and government of that country actually influenced the government there NOT to give the SDB church legal recognition because they were afraid of the SDBs encroaching on their "territory" I reminded my wife that I didn't get mental healing or good news from the SDA church all I got was terror and trauma from the SUnday Laws and IJ and I'm NOT going back to that. I will continue to go to SDB church. I am not going to force it on her, if she wants to remain an Adventist, fine, please don't disturb MY beliefs. I did this in a loving and non-argumentative way and she didn't press the issue. I am determined to stand my ground. In a loving manner, but nonetheless I'm NOT backing down. Adventism nearly destroyed my spiritually and almost threatened my mental health. There is NO WAY I'm going back to it!!!!!!! | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 140 Registered: 10-2005 |
You know when I was a SDA I never quite understood the fear of SUnday laws,to me I thought bring on the sunday laws cause that just meant going home that much sooner. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 971 Registered: 8-2004  |
No Adventist millionaires? Hmmph. I've personally met several Adventist millionaires, and I know there are many more. (Message edited by helovesme2 on July 01, 2007) | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 227 Registered: 5-2007 |
Ummmm, Wolfgang, when I was SDA I did not believe I would be "going home". After reading the Great Controversy Chapter 28 and what EGW wrote about the IJ, I was convinced I would not pass it, I would not be "perfect" and because of that God would not protect me, he would allow me to be imprisoned and tortured during the Sunday Laws. I really believed I was "in for it". I would pray for God to just let me die before it happened. I stopped having goals and dreams because, "What for, the Sunday Laws are coming and I'm going to either be dead or in prison(I'd prefer dead to being in prison) I really believed, in the year 2000 that if Bush got elected President, the SUnday Laws would be in effect by the end of his second term. After 9/11 I believed they were just around the corner. It was truly horrible the terror and anxiety I lived in as an Adventist. The Sunday Laws and IJ were just like the monsters Scylla and Charybidis in Greek mythology and either one or both of them were going to kill me "forever" I believed. Praise God for the hope I have now! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3899 Registered: 3-2004 |
Reb, the Little Debbie Company is owned by an adventist family. They bring in a lot of money with all their sugar items. Diana | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 229 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am aware of that now and I wonder about the hypocracy of making products that are contrary to EGW's "health message" | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2007  |
Reb, Things to consider about the Apostle Paul: 1. Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees. An expert in the application of Jewish law. Anything he had to say on the topic must be considered. In a court of law, he would be considered a "subject matter expert" and able to give testimony. 2. When reading Acts Chapter 9, notice that Paul was chosen by Jesus Christ himself to be an apostle. His authority can come from no higher source than that. In Acts 13:1-3, we see that Paul was specifically commissioned by the Holy Spirit to preach. In verse 9 he is filled with the Holy Spirit to do so. 3. All of the Bible is to be considered the inspired word of God, including Paul's writings. In Gal. 1:12, he declares that his message comes directly from Jesus Christ himself. 4. Paul was not an untrained Christian when he begin his official ministry. In Gal. 1:13-24 we see that he received long intensive training by God himself before he went out on missionary journeys. 5. In Gal. 2:9 we see that Peter and some of the other apostles confirmed that Paul was one of them, another apostle. Remember, Peter was given the "keys of Heaven" and had God's authority to make such a determination. Phil | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 230 Registered: 5-2007 |
Why do Adventists ignore Paul? | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 635 Registered: 6-2006 |
I think because he doesn't agree at all with SDA theology... So it's easier to just "blow off" his letters, and say that the Bible was written by men. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 232 Registered: 5-2007 |
It really bothered me this morning the way my wife just blew Paul off when I quoted from his letters in the Bible. If it's in the Bible it's God's Word, right?? Last time I checked EGWs words weren't in the Bible unless it's the Clear Word abomination. Oh well I am going to do to things: Keep on loving her. Stand my ground. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3904 Registered: 3-2004 |
Because what Paul writes does not go along with SDA doctrine and EGW's writings, the SDAs ignore him. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1896 Registered: 10-2004  |
Good post, Phil. Also, Peter specifically called Paul's writings Scripture:
Also, Reb, I don't understand how your wife could say that Paul was "a new convert" as if he didn't know about the Law, when he was a Jew and grew up with the Law and had lived his whole life keeping the Law strictly--and was an expert in it, a Pharisee of Pharisees, as Phil pointed out. Paul wasn't a Gentile convert!
Reb, does your wife not know that Paul was a Jew and an expert in the Law? If she is unaware, perhaps you could let her know. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 01, 2007) | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 50 Registered: 4-2007 |
Its my experience on the CAF in the endless roundabouts with SDA posters, that St. Paul is the big guns in the defense arsenal when it comes to sabbath keeping and law keeping. Its no wonder his authority has to be minimized! I'm at a point personally where arguing doctrine seems fruitless and almost foolish, yet I can't seem to let those posts go unanswered. I can recognize the patterns in the conversation where they are trying to manipulate posters unfamiliar with Adventism into their views. MarysRoses | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 313 Registered: 11-2005 |
In my own case of sharing with my wife what I am learning, I have found that there is a fine line between discussing and arguing. Digging up all the "dirt" on Adventism, as she calls it, puts her on the defensive. I have to be very selective about which controversial subjects I bring up. I have to make every "bullet" count. I find I can plant a little seed here, and a little seed there -- the latest being about F.E. Belden and the way he "tested" his Aunt Ellen. (Ellen White bit the hook, and denounced Dr. Kellog and A.T Jones falsely, claiming God had shown her in vision that they were trying to get possession of the Tabernacle in Battle Creek.) My wife is a very skilled musician and is familar with Belden's prolific hymn writing, as well as his stature within the Adventist denomination. She has quite a number of old hymnals, etc. I used a number of reputable sources so she couldn't just blow it off. I'll list thosed below. I just shared them with her, and left it at that. She didn't say much, but I could tell that it was another nail in the Adventist "coffin" of deception for her. It's these little seeds that do the most -- but the timing has to be right. By far the most important thing is that in most areas we are on the same page with our spouses -- as you already know. And as I stated above, she does know where I stand since I only attend one church. Another "bridge builder" that I feel is very helpful is that we jointly study the Bible for worship each evening. This is not a time to hold a traditional Seventh-day Adventist "Bible Study" where one part tries to convert the other, but a time we can feel a sense of unity and enjoyment in God's Word. We started with the Gospel of John (my idea) and read one chapter each evening. We are now into Acts, so you can see this is a fairly recent development. It is our plan to continue through to the end of the Bible, and then most likely start at the beginning with Genesis. We take turns (including my 12-year old son) with opening prayer, reading portions of the chapter, and closing prayer. It is now a "ritual" that we look forward to each evening about 8pm. I specifically avoid using it as a time for doctrinal debates. Instead we focus on historical context, etc. We seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It has been a most enjoyable time for all of us. Gilbert Jorgensen ==== F.E. Belden Links (in the order I presented selected portions from) ==== http://www.sfcentral.org/ministries/music/gracenotes/gn579.htm (hymn "Tis Love That Makes Us Happy - page plays midi version in the background) http://www.sfcentral.org/ministries/music/gracenotes/gn652.htm (touching and beautiful hymn "Love at Home" - page plays midi version in the background) http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/heritage/2001/hymn-2.html (comments from the White Estate) http://www.ex-sda.com/e_s_ballenger.htm (see section "Dr. Kellogg and A. T. Jones Accused of Trying to Get Possession of the Tabernacle") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Sunday (about Billy Sunday, the evangelist referenced by the White Estate article) http://www.oakwood.edu/ocgoldmine/sdoc/sureword/question.htm (see section "A Personal Matter") [I printed out portions of the above links to keep my "presentation" brief, and shared them with my wife at an opportune time.] | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 71 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jeremy, Excellent additions to what I was attempting to say. 1. Jesus gave Peter the authority to determine who was who in his kingdom. 2. Peter confirmed Paul. 3. Therefore, to not believe Paul is to not believe Peter is to not believe Jesus. This is a unbreakable chain of witness that can not be ignored. 4. The whole reason the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Peter came to Rome is because they understand that no authority on this earth can start without beginning with Peter who personally gets his mandate from Jesus. 5. So, in effect, when you downplay Paul, you ulitmately are ignoring Jesus' words which is heresy. Matt. 16:17-19 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. So Reb, I suggest you start with the above passage and then use the verses Jeremy quotes. Once having establish Paul's authoriy you can not ignore his teaching. Phil |
