| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 120 Registered: 5-2007 |
Reb, Colleen, The decision to let go of Sabbath observance is importmant to me. It presents a spiritual risk and a psycological component of defiance even though intellectually I pray otherwise. I would liek to say it is a noble gesture to step out in faith, but frankly it is also motivated by a strong desire to be free from 34 years of bondage to a day of restriction that "apparently" is no longer required. Paul , I believe said that anything not of conviction is sin. For me to step out and not observe Saturday as Sabbath is a fearful experiment. Acting on faith that I am honestly taking the step from what I percieve to be a new found reality under the terms of the new covenant. There is another component to this decision. Family pressure. I have the opposite pressure. My wife is hoping I will embrace letting go of Sabbath. If I turn back, it could cause me problems. That said, it becomes a potential loyalty test. Why am I doing this? It cannot be becuse of pressure, but only because of truth and liberty, for me a hope too good to be true , but teh more I study it appears it is true.So, I understand what tension there may be about change. Taking the step, risking a mistake. I am taking my own baby steps, incrementaly, prayerfully. That brings another subject, where to from here. My wife is Catholic. I have no current known objection why I should not feel free to attend with her if she should invite me one day. This does not mean I agree with doctrines or would be a member necessarily, but that I consider all "Christian" Churches to be honorable places to fellowship as a guest. | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 578 Registered: 3-2001 |
Reb, I was one of those who said something earlier. I had decided to leave the topic alone, but I feel compelled to respond to something you just said. You said:
Reb, I say this in love, but you sound like you ar ensalved to your wife's and other's opinions. I am not hearing that this is a choice that you have freely made, but a choice that your wife is driving. Can I suggest that you read the book Boundaries, by Henry Cloud and John Townsend? It is probably one of the best books I have read. In it, they discuss us owning what is ours and letting others (including God) own what is theirs. One of the principles of boundaries is that we must be free to say "no" before we are really free to say "yes." As it relates to this topic, you must actually be free to worship on any day before you can choose to worship on Saturday (Sabbath). I say this kindly, but you are still under the law--the law of your wife. You are NOT responsible for your wife's anger. You are NOT responsible for what your wife's thoughts about your salvation--any more than she is responsible for yours. The choices you make are between you an God. I am not trying to get you to give up worshiping on Saturday. I could care less what day you worship, but I am trying to get you to see that "it is for freedom that you have been set free. Do not let yourself be put back under a yoke of slavery." Earlier, you said:
I encourage you to explore what would happen if you did go to a "Sunday Church." Would she leave you? Would she hurt you physically or emotionally? What is it exactly that you are afraid she would do? Until you face that fear, you are at risk for violating one of the very commandments that you say you revere, which is to have no other gods. A few weeks ago, you asked why "everyone" was on your case about the Sabbath issue. It seems like you think that we have something against the Sabbath, and have an agenda to get you to worship on Sunday. I don't htink that is the case for anyone (at least not me). From my perspective, you are making some comments that reveal a major blind spot. As a brother in Christ, it is my duty to at least point that out to you (as I would hope you would do to me). In closing, I guess I'd just like to leave you with a question. You don't have to answer it, but I think it is important for you to answer for yourself. Are you in the SDB church because it appeases your wife, or is it the fact that it is where you feel most comfortable based on where you are in your walk right now. To be honest, I'd feel more comfortable if it were the later rather than the former. But, I think you must be honest with yourself, and if it is really the later, to own that and not blame your wife. Okay, that's my $.02 worth. I have stirred up enough dust. I'll leave the topic alone now. Doug (Message edited by Doug222 on June 27, 2007) | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 198 Registered: 5-2007 |
I don't know what would happen if I went to a Sunday Church and my wife found out and I don't want to find out. You make some good points, Doug but I feel happy and free right now and I'm ok with going to Church on the Sabbath. I am not in the SDA "cult" and that is major progress. Things are going well, my wife is accepting my going to the SDB Church. I'm happy and growing spiritually and like the SDB church enough that I don't want to attend a Sunday Church at this point. I have no other Gods, but I value peace in my home and I have been able to leave Adventism and retain that peace at home. I'm happy, my wife is tolerating what I am doing, and there is peace in my home. It's not "broke", WHY should I "fix" it??? | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 199 Registered: 5-2007 |
Also I wanted to add that I am trying to be a witness. I am taking seriously the "Love her as Christ loves the Church". IF I grossly upset her by going to a Sunday Church and cause discord in my home by that HOW is that showing that kind of love???? Plus I really like the SDB church and I don't WANT to go somewhere else. I am beginning to make friends there and am hearing the Gospel. I will repeat I AM JUST NOT SMART ENOUGH TO WIN AN ARGUMENT ON THE SABBATH/SUNDAY ISSUE WITH MY WIFE OR ANY OTHER ADVENTIST!!! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THAT??????? Did you ever think that by continuing what I'm doing right now that God just might touch my wife's heart through my witness and showing of love for her enough that she will at some point at least want to attend SDB Church with me?? That would be a MAJOR step in the RIGHT direction. IF she were to be so busy being upsett and concerned over my salvation tfor attending a Sunday Church there's a chance any witness I would try to give would be ignored through this. At least she is begininng to notice a change in me for the better than might have went unnocticed if there was discord over my going to church on Sunday. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 200 Registered: 5-2007 |
I apologise if my tone above seems a little rough. I have been in a real "dilly of a pickle", a real "sticky wicket" and at least things are starting to work out. I see no reason to upsett or throw a wrench in the progress that I have seen. I'm happy, there is peace in my home, things are working out. WHY bother that? | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 579 Registered: 3-2001 |
Reb, I sense that I may have struck a sensitive chord with you, and that is not my intent. But I would like to make one final comment. You just said:
This is the point that I was making. I wasn't saying that you should stop doing what you are doing. My point is, that if the above statement is true, you should probably stop saying that "I'm only there, because my wife will have a fit if I go anywhere else." The fact of the matter is that you are there because you like the SDB Church and that's where you want to be. Don't you see how it could be disingenious, and even dishonoring, to your wife to repeatedly make her the scapegoat for you going to the SDB Church, when the fact of the matter is that you're there by your choice? It would be akin to me saying, "I am going to my church because my wife would have a cow if I went back to the Adventist Church." The truth of the matter, how she feels is irrelevant, if I have no plans or desires to go back in the first place, and it would be unfair to place that decision on her. Anyway, hopefully that clears up any confusion. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers. Doug | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 201 Registered: 5-2007 |
You make good points, Doug and I agree. No feathers ruffled. Yes the main reason I attend the SDB church is because I LIKE it and I will leave it at that. I in no way intend to make my wife appear to be a "scapegoat" I love her as Christ loves the church and care about her feelings. It IS true that she would have a cow if I went to a Sunday church but that is a moot point because I don't want to go to a Sunday Church anyway. I never intended to convey the idea that I am in the SDB church becuase my wife will have a fit if I go anywhere else, she intially didn't even like that because it's not SDA but has come to accept it. My going there started out as seeing it as the best compromise and I have become very happy and feel much at home in the SDB church. I do not in any way want to dishonour my wife and have never intended to. I want to thank you for pointing that out and I assure you no offence has been taken. This has been a difficult time for me but I am now seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. God Bless. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 941 Registered: 9-2006  |
Reb old Reb, what I think is that this thing is going to blow sooner or later, I haven't seen many Adventist willing to compromise, your right about one thing, you got a "sticky wicket" and I wouldn't want to be in your place when it goes. Praying for you Reb that you will be able to thread this needle. Keep on keepin on. River | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 203 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks, River. Your prayers are appreciated. I am just going to trust God, he didn't bring me out of the Adventist cult to just "drop" me. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 943 Registered: 9-2006 |
He will see you through Reb, hang in there, he is faithful. River | ||
| Lucybugg Registered user Username: Lucybugg Post Number: 34 Registered: 2-2007 |
Reb, I would like to comment on my personal experience on debating/arguing the Sabbath/Sunday issue with my family because you keep saying that you're not smart enough to win. I don't debate/argue with them. If they bring it up I tell them that I've studied for myself and have learned that it's ok for me to go on Sunday, and that I will be glad to share the chapters from the Bible I've read which lead me to believe this. I haven't had one take me up on my offer yet. I was a 4th generation Adventist who was educated in public schools except for one semester at an SDA college. I'm smart enough to win this debate/argument (as you are too), but I don't see it as something that has to be won. I'm doing as God leads, and I don't have to convince anyone that I'm right. There are none so blind as those who will not or are not willing to see. May the Lord continue to lead you and bless you! | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 141 Registered: 10-2006 |
Reb, My take on the Sabbath is that it was given soley to the Jewish people and connected exclusively to their God-driven rescue out of Egypt. There is nothing in the Bible about the legal Sabbath outside this context. It is always in context with Judaism. It's quite simple really. My response to Adventists is to ask them why they keep the Jewish Sabbath, and then ask them why would I, a new Covenant Christian, want to keep it when it only serves to muddy up the gospel message? I don't have a problem with those who "keep" a Sabbath in feeling more connected to God, only with those who do it to find acceptance with God based on their observance. There are lots of arguements about the Sabbath. The only one that mattered to me when leaving the SDA church was that the Sabbath has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. Never did, never will. steve | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 204 Registered: 5-2007 |
I agree with you Steve, keeping the Sabbath does not save, ONLY Jesus does, praise His name! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 945 Registered: 9-2006 |
A very wise answer indeed Lucybugg. It is quite remarkable that you haven't had one to take you up on the offer for you to show then them chapters out of the Bible the reason for you convictions concerning this. There silence and lack of taking you up on this offer speaks volumes. It tells me they do not care to hear a humble submission from someone using the Bible. It also tells me that they, deep down, know its there, they just do not want to look. It also possibly tells me that Adventism is their way of life and they intend to live it come hell or high water, hell might be the most likely results of living a lie and adhering so strongly to a false doctrine, did you ever think about that Reb? Did you ever think that the shoe might be on the other foot and that it is they who might be lost? A form of Godliness but denying the power thereof is a serious thing, they recognize that Jesus exist but deny his power to save, the demons recognize he exist and know and are deathly afraid of his power, take a look at Mark 5:7. What I think is that it is not so important to win a debate and we all can’t have the sharpness of mind to be a successful debater, me being one, I am slow as molasses when it comes to thinking and debating. If I enter into debate I am going to get slaughtered, the debate will be over and forgotten about while I am still fumbling around for an answer. Take a look at Corinthians I 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. Corinthians I 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. Corinthians I 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. Corinthians I 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: Corinthians I 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Lucybugg offers to let her Bible do the talking and so it doesn’t depend on her eloquence. Very wise thinking. She just says “here it is lets read it together shall we?” and that separates the men from the boys or women from the girls as the case may be. If they refuse to read it she has already won the argument without firing a shot. On Jesus time of temptation in the wilderness he just answered “It is written” and that is the answer that Lucybugg gave. It may help to make a list of the scriptures you think pertinent to the thing and use highlighter to help you quickly find them. River | ||
| Lucybugg Registered user Username: Lucybugg Post Number: 35 Registered: 2-2007 |
River, my family is slowly searching and studying their way out of Adventism, but right now they remain steadfast and firm on the Sabbath issue. I understand that because the Sabbath/Sunday issue was the last for me to grasp and realize. One brother is especially concerned for my salvation for he is totally convinced that my Sunday attendance is blatant disregard for God's word. My mom told me yesterday that she intends to continue attending the SDA church even though they're wrong because she feels so strongly about the seventh day Sabbath issue. She also said that God will reveal any and all truth to her regarding that in His time. They're taking baby steps, but I'll be surprised if they ever capitulate on the Sabbath/Sunday issue. Of course, I never expected that I would either. God is wonderful! | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2007  |
Technically, I have never won a debate. By that, I mean that my goal for the other person was to change their minds and hearts. I am very good at debating, so that is not the issue. I have done much Bible study and am well prepaired (most of the time) so that is not the issue. My own "rule" is to do like Luchybugg suggests, give my testemony, pray and let it be. The issue is the other person's spiritual blindness. For what ever reason they are blinded. Only the intervention of the Holy Spirit can change that. Phil | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 206 Registered: 5-2007 |
Good points, Lucybugg and River! Though all the scripture you have mentioned was written by Paul, who it has been my experience that the Adventists I know throw Paul out whenever EGW counterdics him. I quoted out of Rom 14 to and Adventist where Paul said "As one who is in Christ I am convinced that no food is unclean in and of itself" All I got from that Adventist was "Paul didn't know what he was talking about, go to Leviticus". Yes I really got that kind of repsonse from an Adventist, WHAT do you do about that? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 946 Registered: 9-2006 |
In this case Lucybugg, prayer is probably your next line of defense. While the Sabbath issue may be the last to go because the day is so deeply ingrained the Lord has the power to dig up and uproot things deeply ingrained in our lives and what seems hopeless to us at times, is for him, no problem at all so you just may have a surprise coming. What would you think might bless you more than anything today? Is it your family making their way out of Adventism? Then ask the Lord to bless you with that. Sometimes in the past I have lifted empty hands and in my mind put a certain loved one there and said "Lord I am holding them up before you" that helped me to focus on what I wished of the Lord. I haven't done that in a long time but I am going to start doing that today. It sounds foolish I know but it takes faith and humility to do that act. Try it and tell me what you think if you would dare. River | ||
| Lucybugg Registered user Username: Lucybugg Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2007 |
Ah...therein lies the problem...an unwillingness to follow the Bible over EGW. For me...I would take Paul over EGW any day since he was not only highly educated and well versed in the Scriptures but also was very legalistic before he met Jesus. If HE says it's ok... Someone wearing the Ellen veil/blinders won't be able to take the Bible for what it says. Once again..JMO | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 947 Registered: 9-2006 |
In answer to your question Reb "WHAT do you do about that? my answer would be Phils answer, you have delivered the word so let it ride, if they won't listen to God they surely will not listen to you. |
