| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5850 Registered: 12-2003  |
OK, I have a question: Could Jesus have failed in His mission to earth? i.e. could He have sinned, and could He have failed to complete His sacrifice and resurrection? After working on Proclamation, I had this question prominently in my mind, so we discussed it and related texts during the last three weeks in our FAF study. Here's a Doug Batchelor quote that launched our study: Doug Batchelor on Jesus and the Trinity: “The real risk in the redemption plan, besides the loss of man, was the breakup of the Godhead. Had Jesus sinned, He would have been working at cross-purposes with the Spirit and His Father. Omnipotent good would have been pitted against omnipotent evil. What would have happened to the rest of creation? Whom would the unfallen universe see as right? One sin could have sent the Godhead and the universe spinning into cosmic chaos; the proportions of this disaster are staggering. Yet the Godhead was still willing to take this fragmenting risk for the salvation of man.” What do you think of this quote? Agree? Disagree? Why? Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1794 Registered: 10-2004  |
One quick thought: I think that to call Jesus "omnipotent evil" is the worst blasphemy anyone could utter! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 18, 2007) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 805 Registered: 10-2002  |
You know, suddenly now that I think about it, the entire idea that the execution plan of salvation posed a "risk" is something I think we've read into the story. Really now, where does it say in the Bible that the plan of salvation ever had a risk of failing? Not that it was a walk in the park, but Scripture doesn't say that it was close to the wire, either. Most of us thought of Satan tempting Jesus, and maybe thought that those were the risky times, or in Gethsemane. However, now that I think about it, really, how futile was it to tempt God! Really now, did Satan have a chance? Here was God the Son with the Spirit of God living inside of Him! We looked at the way He quoted Scripture and said, "That's what we need to do when we're tempted". We looked at it as if He had no other defense. No, the word of God came out of Him because He IS the Word of God! How could He do otherwise than speak God's word? He IS the Word! Now it makes me think of *our* position when we are being tempted. If God in the Spirit lives in us as He lived in Christ, if the Word is living in us, then how futile is it for Satan to tempt God's children? Even if we fall into it, it is only a distraction. God's Spirit in us is stronger, and by faith in Christ we have overcome the evil one because He is greater and He is in us. "For though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again." (Prov.24:16) and "You, dear children, are from God and overcome them, because the One who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world." (1 Jn.4:4) One thing that I think has confused us is the lie that "being tempted" equals "sinning". We feel guilty as soon as we are tempted. But no, it is not sin until we latch onto it and follow the temptation. Because of our fleshy propensity to sin, temptation and sinning have always been very close in our minds to the point where they're like the same thing. But they're not. The enemy can tempt, but God has won the battle already, and the enemy can only rage. Our confusion about the matter just means that we may spend longer confused or feeling guilty -- we still belong to God. How much more, then, being without confusion, did the Son of God completely avoid sinning!! Yes, He was tempted, but He did not sin. Could He have? Is it possible for God to sin? I don't think so. Perhaps this is why Christ is called "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Maybe the other thing to realize is about Gethsemane -- Jesus asking Father if there was another way. It was not sinning, and neither was it close to the wire, either. This is why we can find so many of those gut-wrenching cries in the midst of pain in the Psalms! Such cries to God are not sin and are not on the verge of falling, either. Rather, He wants us to pour out our hearts and souls to Him, even if it doesn't sound good and full of rock-solid belief. In actuality, by pouring out our griefs (etc.), we are indeed expressing faith to Him. It is less full of faith to try and put up a strong veneer when inside you're dying of pain. True faith is opening up yourself to God completely and giving what's inside completely to Him, whether you think it looks good or looks bad. We might think such an admission of pain or doubt inside is on the edge or too close to falling, but in actuality, letting it out to God is safer than pretending it's not there and trying to sound 100%. That would just be pretending externally, and it is far more dangerous. Opening up to God is the safest route and greatest expression of faith in Him, because it shows you can trust Him. Anyway, sorry for the digression. Interesting, how considering the question, "Could Jesus have failed?" triggers all this in me! It sounds very human and poignant to build up a case for the dangerous risk the Godhead took by becoming human, but no, when you actually take what Scripture says and realize how strong He is inside of us today, then it builds your faith up and teaches you that you are completely safe by being completely open and honest with God! It tears down the religious pretense you thought you had to keep up for Him, and shows you that just as Jesus was safe in confessing His feelings to Father, so we are just as safe as He was doing the same. And just as the Word of God could not fall to Satan, neither can the Word of God living in us fail to bear fruit, and neither can we be held down because He is greater in us. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 806 Registered: 10-2002 |
You know, it's also possible that the SDA/Batchelor view is possible because Adventism has never fully embraced the Trinity -- that Jesus is "God the Son". Once you understand that, the question of if He could have failed becomes a non-question... can God fail to be God? (And this is why the New Covenant is so wonderful, because it is between God to God!!) In contrast, because in Adventism we didn't understand that Christ is God the Son, the "flesh" He wore seemed to exert an equally potential force to combat His divine nature. His humanity was more of a threat because we didn't know He was God the Son. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2007 |
Awful implications! It implies that Jesus is not fully God It implies that Satan’s sin is potentially more powerful than God’s Righteousness It implies that Satan’s plan of conquest is potentially better than God’s plan to redeem It implies that Satan is equal to God thus making the outcome a toss-up It implies that God does not have foreknowledge – if plan ‘A’ doesn’t work He’ll have to come up with plan ‘B’ JonVil | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2007 |
Playing the 'What If' game is always dangerous. It always casts doubt on God's omniscience Given Doug's influence and large audience he should have known better than to play. It appears that Doug is losing his center. I have found that recently he is finding spiritual implications in plain and clear scripture that simply is not there. We had an evangelist present an Amazing Facts Seminar recently, he absolutely distorted the parable of the Ten Coins – The woman was the church, the Ten Coins were actually the 10 Cs, the lamp was the Holy Spirit, and the lost coin…? You got it – the Sabbath. This is just one of several he distorted. (There’s a name for this type of interpretation-can’t for the life of me remember what it is?) It’s a theological mine-field out there-we really have to watch our step JonVil | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2007 |
Ha! I found it - 'allegorical' JonVil | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3648 Registered: 3-2004  |
Since becoming a Christian I have said Satan was defeated at the cross. In reality he has been defeated since he sinned. God has always been triumphant. God is the everlasting God, the Alpha and Omega. Satan could never put him in any kind of jeopardy. Diana | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2007  |
I really enjoyed reading this thread. Good answers everyone! Kristen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 925 Registered: 8-2004  |
The 'what if' game is not just Doug Batchelor. It is part and parcel of Adventism. While it boggles my mind to know that God cannot and does not fail, the alternative is unthinkable. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 766 Registered: 9-2006  |
For one thing Bactchelor’s statement shows his total lack of understanding of the trinity, not that I have the ability to wrap my mind completely around that either, further more to explore this question in this direction I believe shows a total lack of guidance from the Holy Spirit and may be a sign of an unregenerated person who professes a form of Godliness but denies his power. Further more I think it is just the flesh doing the thinking and the questioning. I not only disagree with his indications, I disagree with his line of thought altogether. His indication that there was some kind of risk involved in the trinity fragmenting or dividing or Jesus having a propensity to sin is pure arrogance on his part. The arrogance of a fleshly mind. My suggestion to Mr. Batchelor is to find himself another cave and stay there in prayer until he touches the heart of God, or better still just an old fashioned alter will do mixed with a little singing “To thine be the glory” and ending with singing “Just as I am” No Mr. Batchelor, not to your infinitesimal mind and silly arguments and glib quotes goes the glory but the glory goes to the omnipotent one, the all powerful one, God the father. Rather than to makes statements like“The real risk in the redemption plan.” He might be better to consider the real risk of his own coming up short before a Holy and omnipotent God. I find the statement brash, arrogant, ignorant and offensive. The most amazing fact is Mr. Batchelor himself. Thank you Jesus for making an open show of Satan, the enemy of our souls. And thank you Mr. smart aleck Doug Batchelor for once again showing your ignorance, as long as you continue it makes me look really good and to do that you have accomplished a real feat. Now there is an amazing fact! I pretty much agree with Bro Ramone’s analysis. Thank you Mr. Bro Ramone. “Playing the 'What If' game is always dangerous. It always casts doubt on God's omniscience.” (Jonvil) I totally agree with Jonvil. Amen. I’ll give you another amazing fact, it will be amazing how short lived the wisdom of the flesh is, how quickly the lust of the flesh and the pride of life will be burned away. How quickly the dross with be burned away leaving nothing but the Gold tried in the fire. River I wasn’t going to write much due to the fact that I seem to keep my foot in my mouth so much lately and I have felt really bad about it but Batchelor’s statement just puts a crink in my crank! Hi Mary! | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 927 Registered: 8-2004 |
Hi River! Hope you're having as beautiful a morning as I am here. Spring is delightful! You wrote, "I’ll give you another amazing fact, it will be amazing how short lived the wisdom of the flesh is, how quickly the lust of the flesh and the pride of life will be burned away. How quickly the dross with be burned away leaving nothing but the Gold tried in the fire." That's for sure!! And that burning process doesn't have to wait to start after we have died. One of the most humiliating things in my life was when God stepped in and took away my Adventism (I asked for it, but was shocked when He did it - how's that for faith!) and gave me Himself. What I was left with was the astounding realization that God IS, that I am only by His grace, that most of what I 'knew' about him before was bogus, that HE was, is and will be in charge of my education in Him, and that it's His business to choose what I learn when. And then the overwhelming delight that God IS love, that I am IN HIS LOVE by His Grace, that my 'knowledge' (gotten in my own strength) could be freely abandoned, and that the replacement for my proud 'I know I'm right's' was the awesome privilege trusting Him: of NOT knowing anything but my Lord, and of not having to know until such time as God brings me to knowledge for His own wisdom. The things I now know seem much smaller than when I had a headful of 'truths', but the One I know is much bigger - and the things He teaches me only lead me to trust Him more and to see even more clearly how little I know apart from Him. I am but a speck of dust in God's ocean - but a treasured speck He has redeemed. Thank you Jesus! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 541 Registered: 3-2001 |
Let's nt give Doug Batchelor too much credit. The idea that Jesus could have failed has been around long before Doug ever came on the scene. I find Doug to be a great speaker, but he generally does not have original thoughts. He simply spouts the "company line" like any good Adventist. Doug | ||
| Toria Registered user Username: Toria Post Number: 127 Registered: 2-2006  |
According to EGW, Jesus Himself was not sure of His resurrection. At least that was my understanding when I read the Desire of Ages. In the 'Table of Contents' - under chapter titled "Calvery" is written: "The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal......". Toria (Message edited by toria on May 19, 2007) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1795 Registered: 10-2004 |
You're right, Doug--the stuff about how Jesus could have sinned and how "the Godhead" took a "risk" all comes from--you guessed it--Ellen G. White. I am going to try to pick the Batchelor quote apart--but there is so much heresy in it, I may miss something!
"The real risk in the redemption plan," First of all, as Jonvil pointed out, to say that God took a "risk" is to say that God does not know the future. If He had known the future, and the fact that Jesus was not going to sin, then He would not have been taking any risk. (I can't even really say all of that properly since with Adventism we're talking about a "Godhead" group rather than a GOD--a He!) Second, it is simply blasphemy to say that God CAN take a risk--He is never in any "danger" and His plans and purposes are never in any danger of not being fulfilled! He is totally omnipotent, omniscient and is absolutely Sovereign over everything (including Satan, sin, and evil). And He is Holy and Righteous--and cannot sin! "besides the loss of man," In reality, we who are God's elect were chosen "in Him before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4 NASB) and Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection were always sure. Our eternal salvation was never in any jeopardy. "was the breakup of the Godhead." If there was such a thing as a "Godhead" (the word is used in the KJV to simply mean God, but the meaning is vastly changed in Adventism to mean a "group of Gods"), then perhaps there could be a breakup of this "Godhead." However, despite the assertions of the Mormons and Adventists to the contrary, there is only One God--there is only one living Being who is God--not three divine beings (gods) who are "one" only in purpose and character, etc. (and potentially not even that, according to the Batchelor quote!). Since there is only one God, and He is a simple (rather than an aggregate) Being, there can be no "breakup" of God! (Plus the fact that He is changeless and timeless [although Adventism teaches that God has always been trapped inside of time]!) If only the Adventists believed in the Trinity--there would be no problem. If Adventists were monotheists rather than polytheists they would not teach such heresy as the above. "Had Jesus sinned," If they realy believed that Jesus is God, then they would not make such a statement. God cannot sin. Jesus is God. Therefore, Jesus cannot sin. It is that simple! "He would have been working at cross-purposes with the Spirit and His Father." What happened to Batchelor's claim earlier in the same article that his teaching (which is Adventism's teaching) does not really teach multiple gods because their gods have the same purposes? (An absolutely absurd defense anyway!) This is what he writes earlier in the article:
So I guess Batchelor is admitting that if Jesus sinned, then "the Godhead" would be multiple gods. In other words, he is admitting that what he calls "one God" (really just a united group of three gods) could potentially become multiple gods! "Omnipotent good would have been pitted against omnipotent evil." Again, like I said before, to call Jesus "omnipotent evil" (even "potentially") is horrendous blasphemy! So, I guess he is saying that there would be a "war of the (all-powerful) gods"? But as Jonvil already alluded to, he is really saying that Satan is the most powerful! "What would have happened to the rest of creation? Whom would the unfallen universe see as right? One sin could have sent the Godhead and the universe spinning into cosmic chaos; the proportions of this disaster are staggering." Here he is implying that it would be up to us (God's creation) who runs the universe!! Either the "good" gods ("the father" and "the holy spirit") or the "evil" gods such as "jesus" and Satan??!!!! I can't stand having to even write the above!!!! It makes me sick!!!! But that's what Batchelor says! Of course, the idea that it is up to us who wins "the Great Controversy" and who controls the universe (either God or Satan)--is just standard SDA theology and is what EGW teaches! What a satanic false prophet she was! "Yet the Godhead was still willing to take this fragmenting risk for the salvation of man." I think I've addressed the problems with this already above. Ughh! I'm done! Yuck! Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1796 Registered: 10-2004 |
One more thing--if Jesus could have sinned while on earth, then "shouldn't" He still be able to sin now? Don't they believe that He is still human, for example? It would seem that there would still be a "risk"! Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 767 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thanks for sorting that out Jeremy, that must have smarted, sorta like getting scarfed upside the head with a tree branch.  | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5853 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, thank you so much. You are absolutely correct on all counts. Further the idea that the "unfallen universe" would have to decide who was right is another heresy. The Bible is clear that ALL creation has been affected by sin--there is no "unfallen universe". Romans 8:19-22 says that the creation is groaning as if in childbirth, that it has been subjected to frustration and is waiting to be released from its bondage to decay when the sons of God are "revealed"--or glorified. Inanimate creation itself is in bondage to decay and is awaiting God's final redemption. 2 Peter 3:10-11 and Revelation 21:1 both describe the heavens and the earth being destroyed and melted away; the heavens disappear with a roar, and the elements melt away with fervent heat. And then God will create a new heaven and a new earth. Colossians 1:19-20 is remarkable; it says that Jesus reconciled all things, both in heaven and on earth, to God by the blood of His cross. This text clearly says that EVERYTHING--even in heaven--had to be reconciled to God. There is no "unfallen universe" to "decide" who would have to "choose" to follow Jesus or Satan. ALL creation has been locked in bondage to decay and is waiting for God's elect to be glorified, when inanimate creation itself will be redeemed and made new. Even heaven itself was touched by sin; Satan and his angels sinned in and were banned from heaven. As for the universe being at risk if Jesus would have sinned...Impossible. Jesus Himself is the one in whom all things hold together, in whom we all live and move and have our being (Colossians 1:17, Acts 17:28). Jesus did not stop being God when he came to earth. He was man--but He was also God, and God did not lose His qualities of being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Even when Jesus was on earth, all things were held together in Him. He was and is God--and while humanity could theoretically sin, God cannot. Jesus could not have failed, because He never stopped being GOD. If Jesus had not been superior to Adam and offered MORE security, the question would always be there: could sin arise again? Jesus had to offer more security than a mere human could offer. He HAD to be human, but He also had to be God. Because He was both, He could redeem us and give us eternal security with a PERFECT sacrifice. His blood is good for all creation for all time. Adventism has truly taught us to honor a different Jesus and a diferent God. All this stems from Ellen and the founders. The church even admits that Ellen never endorsed the orthodox Trinity that Christianity has always endorsed. She taught a "heavenly trio"--not One God. No wonder I had such a struggle as an Adventist: I was struggling to emulate a fallible Jesus instead of trusting in the substitution of a Perfect, Immortal, Almighty God who bore my sin in Himself and shed human blood to secure our salvation for eternity. It is a mystery far too big for words. Jesus is ALL we need. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1799 Registered: 10-2004 |
AMEN! Great post, Colleen! Jeremy | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 808 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jeremy, your "one more thing" really says quite a load! Perhaps this is why Adventism believes that the Ten Commandments are eternal and will be the foundation of God's goverment in eternity? Essentially then, Adventism sees no end to "sin". This is ironic when considering that Adventism believes in "annihilation"... if the wicked, Satan and all the spirits with him are annihilated, somehow "sin" still isn't completely out of the picture, I guess! The underlying theme with all this is the elevation of "humanity" to a position equal to or above God. Jesus' human nature is painted as being a potential threat to His divine nature, and humanity & the universe are made to be the judges of God. Eeek. It is just so wonderful to know You, Jesus! To know You are great, mighty, the All-Mighty One! You are greater than our humanity in every way, and You are and have always been more than sufficient. It is such a relief to know You and know Your power. Thank You for bringing us to the place where we can know You and begin to see how great and all-powerful You are. Remove the veil of others, Lord, and let them behold You in all Your power and glory! (Message edited by agapetos on May 20, 2007) |
