| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 68 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have come to believe that tithe is not taugt in the NT. It is all freewill. Does anyone know of church's that do not require tithing? | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 595 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jim, there are a lot! Most protestant churches do not *require* tithing. Some will encourage it, some give "cheerful giving" sermons, and I've even been to one that didn't even take an offering during worship but had a box in the back of the church if you were so inclined to give. What kind of worship style are you looking for?  Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6079 Registered: 12-2003  |
Leigh Anne's right. Many churches do not require tithing. I know ours does not, and I know many others also do not. And you are right: tithing is NOT a NT requirement. All we are and have belongs to God. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2007 |
Leigh Anne, Good question. I guess I am conseravtive in general. I have attended one Petecostal service. It was enjoyable. I am familiar with Babtist style too. Curious about Methodists, non -denom. Seems , when I find some things that I like, it turns out they have areas that I feel will never be a solution or agreement with. Part of my Church search is leaning for myself , what is unreasonable of me to expect from any Church. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 282 Registered: 11-2005 |
I have attended both a Baptist and Evangelical Free Church where the term "tithe and offerings" is used. The EFC even had two Sunday School's study on the subject while the Baptist church I attend takes the position that a person can pay a "tithe" if they want to but it is not binding on a NT Christian. I get the distinct impression that it, like last day events, is very much a matter of personal interpretation. I like the EFC stance of "majoring in the majors, and minoring in the minors". At both congregations I sense the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and a determined unwillingness to let tithing become a doctrinal issue. This is in stark contrast to Adventism where everything, including eating cheese, is a matter of eternal salvation! As Colleen and others have pointed out here, after leaving Adventism's blind obedience to Ellen White's every "jot and tittle", it is a shocking transition to realize that Christianity does allow for a healthy diversity of opinion on issues that are not core doctrine. The Baptist church that I attend has three pastors and two jointly teach a Sunday school class that I attend where they openly share with us their own differences of viewpoint, and view it as a sign of a healthy, vibrant church. I no longer feel threatened because I might not agree with each of these "side issues". In each case the pastors keep driving us back to the Bible to do our own research, and remind us that our relationship is to be with God. Oh, for the day that such a Spirit could shine into the dark recesses of Adventism and fully expose all of Ellen White's sick and twisted teachings! It is so refreshing. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1107 Registered: 4-2000  |
My wife and I have been attending a non-tithe-demanding church (Faith Bible Church, a non-denominational church that basically reflects John MacArthur's teachings). In fact, they NEVER even take up an offering during the worship services. In the back of the worship center is a courtesy counter with a slot simply labeled "OFFERINGS." The annual church budget is nearly one million dollars and they are never behind financially. Amazingly, our church does not have any debt--even though we have a new facility. Our church also does not have any formal membership requirements. By regular attendance and participation, one is free to call himself/herself a member. We have five pastors on staff with an average attendance around 1,000 worshippers weekly in two services. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 285 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dennis -- that sounds like your fellowship is experiencing the "Latter Rain" that Adventists like to talk about! Perhaps they need to visit and get some ideas. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1108 Registered: 4-2000 |
Gilbert, During the welcome class orientation, we were told that the church elders decided early on that stewardship should be reflective of their church name, Faith Bible Church. Consequently, Spirit-led or grace giving is our church model in financing the Great Commission. Undoubtedly, worshippers are also much more likely to give when they are not labeled as possible "thieves and robbers." By the way, I read with great interest your testimony posted on this website. I was also acquainted with the same SDA leaders you mentioned. God has certainly blessed you and your family in calling you out of Adventism. Sadly, in reviewing my departmental leadership days in Adventism, I shudder at the arrogant mindset I had at that time. It was somehow exciting to dispense information in a limited and controlled manner to those under my direction. Graciously, the Lord has forgiven me for personally deceiving many people. Unashamedly, I even co-authored a field-training booklet in how to effectively deceive the public. I actually became an expert at it. It was a miracle of miracles that God reached down and plucked me out of a cult. How can I ever praise Him enough? We serve an awesome, prayer-answering, sovereign God! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6088 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dennis, I so resonate with your testimony above. I praise and thank God for rescuing me. I cannot explain or understand why He did so, but I thank Him. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 74 Registered: 5-2007 |
Dennis, Colleen, Both of you speak of being plucked out , rescued. This infers a peace of mind in that you feel secure with your decisions. What , if anything specific helped you to achieve a peace of mind and conviction that your actions were at peace with God? How did you esacpe that sense of dread that you were making a mistake. You see, I understand how people can convince themselves about a position if they keep hammering on it. People can choose what they believe. For me , believing a truth is not a matter of choice but rather revelation and conviction. The only component of choice is that I choose Christ and even that is by God's own election, I don't take credit for that either. Yet, we do have a part to play. "working out our own salvation with fear and trembling" That means something. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 289 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jim, While I am neither Dennis or Colleen I am delighted to share my personal experience with you. I am now 56, and a sixth-generation former SDA (for what that is worth). For most of my life I felt that I could never be good enough to make it to heaven. It was hopeless. My sinful nature would keep getting the best of me. Something happened two years ago. At that time I began listening to a Christian radio station. I know from the sequence of events in my life that it could be nothing other than the leading of the Holy Spirit. Habits that I had been working on for my entire life, over a very short period of time no longer tempted me. I was dumbfounded. There was a particular sequence of events in my personal life that I seriously doubt could have just happened by accident. I feel (make that know!) that the Holy Spirit was working mightily in my life. At the same time I began to do a lot of Bible study. The areas that were brought to my consciousness are not ones that I would have neccessarily picked. They included a Bible study of what the Seal of God really is -- since I had been taught as a SDA that everyone would either have the Seal of God (Sabbath to SDAs) or the Mark of the Beast (not refraining from worshipping God on Sunday). Imagine my shock when I found that the Seal of God is, in fact, the Holy Spirit! That lead me to a study of Romans and Galations -- which made it abundantly obvious that there is an "Old Covenant" (law), and a "New Covenant" (grace + Holy Spirit). I had never heard of such a thing the entire time I had been a Seventh-day Adventist. It simply doesn't square with SDA theology. As if that wasn't enough, wouldn't you know that the 3rd quarter Sabbath School lesson focused spcifically on 1844 and the Investigative Judgement. About 80% of the adult Sabbath School class was amazed at the logic that Clifford Goldstein tried to use to prop up the weekly lessons. It was obvious, even to us, that sound principles of Biblical interpretation simply weren't being used. For example, how does one justify a (unique) core doctrine simply on the basis that no other denomination has it -- therefore that is proof that the SDA Church is God's exclusive "ark of safety" (the Remnant Church)! The Holy Spirit worked mightily on us in a way that I had never before seen. It was as a result of all this that I studied like never before, and found abundant evidence that there is a huge difference between the gospel of Ellen White that I had been taught -- a gospel of fear (never say that you are saved!), and the Gospel of Christ (come unto ME, all ye that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest). The Bible uses the example of the wind. That is what the Holy Spirit's influence is like. Just like Jesus dying on the cross for me, I can't explain it. I just see the results of it in my life. I can take no credit for it. I believe, and it happens -- like Hebrews 4 says. Nothing compares. During this same time I began fellowshipping each Sunday with local groups of Christian believers. The difference in focus is shocking. The last SDA sermon I attended was by a visiting professor from Southwestern Adventist University who "teaches" SDA religion students how to give sermons. It was all about how wonderful it is to be a Seventh-day Adventist, how the Ephesians Paul wrote to were Seventh-day Adventists, blah, blah, blah. The next day I fellowshipped with the local Evangelical Free Church congregation where the entire focus was on Jesus, and what He has done for us. The worship and praise services are as different as night and day. When one feels the power of the Holy Spirit in their life there can be no mistaking it! It's not about us and how to be perfect, or survive in the woods during a Time of Trouble. It's not about how WE (SDAs) are THE Remnant Church and everyone will become Seventh-day Adventists when a Universal Sunday Law is (supposedly) passed. It is all about Jesus. More of Him, and less of us! Victory in Jesus I heard an old, old story, How a Savior came from glory, How He gave His life on Calvary To save a wretch like me; I heard about His groaning, Of His precious blood's atoning, Then I repented of my sins And won the victory. Chorus O victory in Jesus, My Savior, forever. He sought me and bought me With His redeeming blood; He loved me ere I knew Him And all my love is due Him, He plunged me to victory, Beneath the cleansing flood. I heard about His healing, Of His cleansing pow'r revealing. How He made the lame to walk again And caused the blind to see; And then I cried, "Dear Jesus, Come and heal my broken spirit," And somehow Jesus came and bro't To me the victory. Chorus O victory in Jesus, My Savior, forever. He sought me and bought me With His redeeming blood; He loved me ere I knew Him And all my love is due Him, He plunged me to victory, Beneath the cleansing flood. I heard about a mansion He has built for me in glory. And I heard about the streets of gold Beyond the crystal sea; About the angels singing, And the old redemption story, And some sweet day I'll sing up there The song of victory. Chorus O victory in Jesus, My Savior, forever. He sought me and bought me With His redeeming blood; He loved me ere I knew Him And all my love is due Him, He plunged me to victory, Beneath the cleansing flood. Isn't that exciting!! "My Savior, forever. He sought me and bought me with His redeeming blood!" I just can't stop singing His praises! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 894 Registered: 9-2006  |
Gilbert, Your testimony really blesses me, If i get any more blessed I may just leave the ground! God bless you Gilbert!! River | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1110 Registered: 4-2000 |
Jim, We can't "work out" our salvation if it hasn't been "worked in." Salvation is of the Lord! Salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to be achieved. Once you see the big picture about Adventism that they have not left even one Christian doctrine untainted or unchanged in some way, you will no longer regard with any obligation nor give any credence to such a toxic-faith system. Consequently, all of your lingering doubts and all of your greatest fears will be finally removed and forever surrendered to Jesus. Once we are adopted into His wonderful family, no one (not even an SDA apologist) will be able to "pluck" or "snatch" us out of the Father's hand (John 10:29).
Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 76 Registered: 5-2007 |
Gilbert, Thank You fof sharing! When I started asking those same questions and started realizing that the answers were coming back diverted, ignored and empty. It suspected there were entire subjects being ommited. Whenever I read an explaination or interpretaion, an argument or proposal. I must use my own common sense. So often, the answers would fall flat, or were a stretch. However, there is so much that SDA teachings do present that are resonable when you listen to them. That is I suppose the whole point. That when we accept something that is in error, we don't always realize it, at least at first. That is why in my experience, it is so important that everything comes together in agreement when it comes to scripture. I am not looking for a formula so I can contain God. I am looking for conviction and understanding as I grow. Knowing when something is not ringing true is so important. I have read SDA papers on the Tithe subject from a professor. The text was so assumptive it depressed me. That study was all he had to teach a class. Not so much that it was about tithe, but that it was based upon superficial arguments and a because I say so stance. I went on (SDA affilaiated) Bible website several times. Asking tough questions. Finally was told that I had already made up my mind and the discussion was closed. That happen a couple years ago. In my mind, I had not made up my mind at all. But because I was pressing the subject with my own questions, it was apparent that I was playing games or being argumentative. I left disillusioned and sad. When there is no substance or honesty, it becomes evident. I always allow for teh fact that all of us are learning and we give what we know. But to be dogmatic and shallow? That is not faith, it is presumption. Thanks again for sharing. Jim | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 291 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dennis -- Wow. What an awesome quote! "Salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to be achieved." | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6092 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, the way I countered the fear and doubt and guilt and "what if I'm being led down a path of deeper deception" moments was by two things: prayer that God would keep me from deception, and literally reading and saying Bible promises to myself. I had to literally go back to the Scripture and re-read the assurances that Jesus has done all I need to be done, that if I believed in the Lord Jesus I had passed from death to life, that the law had been given 430 years after Abraham until the Seed had come, etc. It was through prayer and Scripture reading that the waves of doubt and confusion abated. The reason we have these crippling doubts is that our struggle is literally a spiritual struggle. It is not merely ideological. When we choose to follow the light of Jesus out of our familiar deception, we are quite literally opposed. (Read Ephesians 6:10-18.) Our guilt and fear and struggle are part of a real spiritual battle for our souls. It is in clinging to the Word of God and praying for God's protection, clarity, and truth that we have relief and freedom from the crippling doubts. And yes, Dennis is so right: we do not work out our salvation as a means of becoming saved. We are saved entirely by the work of the Lord Jesus. Once we are saved, we "work out"—in other words, live out—the results of our salvation. Read the rest of the verse: "for it is God who is a work in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Phil 2:12-13). God works in us; we work salvation "out" AFTER being saved. Our lives then reflect our salvation. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 79 Registered: 5-2007 |
Dennis, You wrote: Once you see the big picture about Adventism that they have not left even one Christian doctrine untainted or unchanged in some way, you will no longer regard with any obligation nor give any credence to such a toxic-faith system. This impresses me. Because that is where I see myself heading towards, (slowly). It is just dawning on me that almost everything has in fact been distorted. I am still grappling with Eternal Hell, Sanctifaction constructs and ofcourse the Sabbath and Tithe. I have made much progress especially in the last two. Still working on the first one and I think I need to reenforce the sanctifacation study. I still feel very uncomfortable working or buying on Sabbath and Though I want to redirect and start a new stewardship system, I have been hesitating there too. I guess this is a "freefall" trust matter too. Sooner or later, I have to resolve this by experience. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1882 Registered: 10-2004  |
Jim, Colleen is right about the "working out" verse. Sanctification (the work God is doing in our lives) has nothing to do with our salvation--it does not contribute anything to our salvation. If we have trusted Jesus' sacrifice alone to save us, then we have already been saved (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), past tense. In fact, Ephesians 2:8 literally says, in the Greek, "For by grace you have been saved ONCE AND FOREVER"! Hebrews 10:14 says: "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." (ESV.) And in verse 12, it said: "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (NASB.) There are two different types of sanctification--which can be called positional sanctifcation and practical sanctification. As I said above, the practical sanctification and how we live our lives does not determine, or contribute to, our salvation. According to Adventism's false gospel, Faith + Works = Salvation. But according to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, Faith = Salvation + Works. In other words, our good works are merely a result of having already been eternally saved. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ and His finished work for us on the Cross alone, plus NOTHING. Positional sanctification refers to our secure position because of Jesus Christ and to what happens at the moment that God saves us: He sanctifies us--sets us apart for Him--by regenerating us/causing us to be born again (bringing our spirits to life, John 3:6) and giving us eternal life, indwelling us Himself. In 1 Corinthians 6:11 it says: "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." (NASB.) And once God saves us, we are saved forever! Hebrews 7:25a (NASB) says: "Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him," In your post on the other thread, Jim, you mentioned the passage about being grafted in and grafted out. In context, Paul in Romans 11 is discussing groups, NOT individuals, and he is talking about the Jews and the Gentiles as groups being grafted in, etc. Again, it's not referring to individuals losing their salvation, like Adventism teaches. Also, on the other thread you mentioned: "No more sacrifice remains if we "deliberately" continue in sin etc..." That verse is from a passage in Hebrews 10:
So, in context, we see that the "willful sin" it speaks of in verse 26 is actually rejecting Jesus' sacrifice. It's simply saying that if we reject Jesus' sacrifice, then there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. There is no other sacrifice for our sins--there is only one, Jesus Christ's--and if we reject that, we're out of options, and all that remains is "a terrifying expectation of judgment"! And at the end of the chapter is the VERY GOOD NEWS that we can have the assurance that WE "are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul"! In other words, those who trample "under foot the Son of God" never actually had faith to begin with. If we have trusted in Jesus' sacrifice alone to save us, we can know that we will never be lost! Hallelujah! Praise God! This is why it's called the GOOD NEWS!! Here are some additional promises from God's Word:
We can absolutely trust these promises of Jesus. They will never fail. That last passage is even more emphatic in the Greek, some of which is simply omitted in English translations:
Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 898 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jeremy, that is so powerful!! | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1112 Registered: 4-2000 |
Jim, Belief transitions, at best, are not without trauma. Adventism truly causes us all sorts of problems (before, during, and after). Sabbathing and tithing certainly belong together since they are ceremonial in nature. A moral law is one that is in effect 24/7 (every nanosecond of time) and not merely once a year, season, month, or week. In the case of tithing, there NEVER was a monetary tithe in the Old Testament--salaries were exempt. Tithe was all about food from crops and animals only. Also, both the Sabbath and tithe laws changed from time to time in Old Testament times. Unlike ceremonial laws, moral laws are NEVER altered due to acts charity, mercy, or necessity. However, basic moral laws continued unchanged from one covenant to another (e.g., compare the Noahic covenant with the Mosaic or Old Covenant, Mosaic Covenant with the New Covenant, etc.). While there are sharp distinctions in the covenants throughout redemptive history, there are also significant commonalities. After all, the same God was involved in all of them. For example, grace is nothing new, Noah was a recipient of it as well (see Gen. 6:8). And before that, after the Fall, Adam and Eve were recipients of grace (see Gen.3:15 for the first promise of a Savior). It is awesome and encouraging to see a common thread throughout redemptive history. Unlike our Adventist friends claim, the New Covenant is NOT a warmed-over Old Covenant. It is true to its name--NEW. Yet we still find many commonalities (i.e., many of the OC moral laws are reiterated in the NC). Actually, the New Testament contains more moral directives than the Old Testament believers had. Under the New Covenant teachings of Jesus Christ, we have a higher standard of righteousness than the Old Covenant could provide. Also, the New Testament reveals the divine wrath of God in a stronger manner than the Old Testament does (many wrongly think it is the other way around). Indeed, we can only appreciate God's grace to the extent that we understand the depth of the His divine wrath. Sin is a big deal with God. One of the primary reasons for an eternal punishment (hell) is that the unconfessed and unforgiven sins of the wicked are forever before the Father. Adventism would unfairly obliterate and pardon all those unconfessed and unforgiven sins through the quick-fix of annihilation. Additionally, annihilationist's would unfairly have Adolf Hitler receive the same punishment as the garden-variety pagan. Importantly, our sins are either on Jesus or on us (not a large variety of choices to select from). There are so many things to unlearn and relearn when transitioning out of Adventism. The difference is like night and day. Someone rightly said, "The unexamined faith is not worth believing, and the unexamined faith is not worth living." The will of God will not lead you where the grace of God cannot keep you. May God's richest blessings be yours! Dennis Fischer |
