| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6044 Registered: 12-2003  |
One of my friends made an astute observation to me earlier. We tend to think of eternity as "undending time". It is not—there is no time! We really have no idea what eternity is really like—but apparently it is not linear. All of time is accessible to God at the same "time" (pardon my use of the word "time" to describe an eternity I can't actually comprehend!) There is no past, present, and future in eternity. It is all accessible. Further, we are familiar and fairly comfortable with the texts that tell us that our God is a "consuming fire". We have not needed to think of God as literal flames consuming matter and releasing particulates. Frankly, we have no need to see hell as literal flames releasing particulates, either. As our pastor said last Sunday, he's quite certain hell is not literal flames. But just as the reality of heaven is much better/greater than we can imagine (see 1 Cor. 2:9; Isaiah 64:4), the reality of hell will be much worse than we can imagine. If God is a consuming fire and hell is eternal "fire", then I believe we can trust the eternal God to deal justly with the wicked HIMSELF. I see no reason to try to identify a "place" for hell, to have a scientific understanding of how it will "work", etc. God Himself deals with the wicked, and we know He is just and we can trust Him. Do I think I understand this? No. But I am seeing that God is 100% Love. He is also just, merciful, unfailingly compassionate, and has wrath towards sin. He has given Himself to save us from His wrath. Those who refuse Jesus will suffer God's wrath. This much is very clear in the Bible...and it's clear that this wrath will be agonizing. But we can can trust God completely. He is responsible for all He has created. Colleen | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 599 Registered: 4-2006  |
I would like to agree with Colleen, I do as well believe that Hell is not a place of literal fire. It seems to be symbolic of some horrible eternal condition. I think one of the above links I mentioned above talks specifically about the symbolic nature of the fire. Jesus is God almighty! Martin | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2007 |
For me, one attractive thing about Adventism was the lack of the 'hellfire and damnation' teachings I had grown up on in my grandmother's Baptist Church. After leaving Adventism, I eventually found myself rejecting Christianity altogether, even though I had been active in my parish and attended faithfully with my husband and children. One chief thing in my mind was the issue of an eternal hell. After being called home,realizing that God is love, that he is in charge, and that I can trust him. I still had some resistance to reconciling myself to the Church, because of the doctrines regarding hell. I agree completely that God is Love, and that He is in charge and that we can trust Him. Something else that really helped me, was realizing that much of what we think of hell as being 'like' comes not from the bible but from our culture. Dante's Inferno is literature, not doctrine, yet most accounts of hell we are familiar with seem to summon up his imagery. I think its hard to interpret exactly what the Bible says about the conditions or suffering of hell, because we as humans do not fully comprehend God, Eternity, or what it really means to be cut off from God. As far as my personal beliefs about hell, I accept only the two points that are non-negotiable in my faith, namely, that the chief suffering of hell is eternal separation from God, and that rejecting God has irrevocable eternal consequences. When I think how much suffering in this world comes from social isolation and loneliness, and that this suffering is the result of the lack of merely mundane earthly companionship, I cannot imagine the suffering of separation from God. Flames and pitchforks would probably be a welcome alternative. (at least Dante's wretched lost souls have plenty of company) Since hell is outside of time, and our finite human minds cannot really understand Eternity, I think all other questions can't really have a satisfactory answer. I don't exclude the possibility that some of the biblical descriptions are literal, but I also think that a metaphorical interpretation is possible. I know some of the early Greek fathers wrote of the wicked experiencing God's love as fire and torment, because their hearts could not receive it as Love. If that resembles the truth, separation could be a mercy as well as a punishment. All of this to me is speculation, and I don't feel a need to explore this further right now. I agree with Colleen's observation that our concept of time is linear, but God is not subject to that limitation. An interesting question for me, which I do not pretend to have an answer for, is wondering whether a soul separated from the Creator has any existence at all that is even understandable to us. While living, even the wicked are not separated from God, they still can reach out to Him, and as I understand it, we could not continue to live if he withdrew Himself from the world. This doesn't really answer the original post, I can't even say it takes a 'position', but... Anyway, realizing that hell does not necessarily mean the lurid, Hollywood special effects idea of 'hell' that can get rooted in our mind, allowed me to overcome the obstacle of necessary belief in an eternal hell. I hope this might help someone in struggling with it in their own mind. MarysRoses (Message edited by MarysRoses on June 13, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6048 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, MarysRoses. Very good observations—and you are right that we just cannot know OR understand the reality of hell. We know that it is, and we know that we can trust God. It is in eternity, and eternity is not "endless time". Thank you! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1872 Registered: 10-2004  |
The following is a very interesting, brief (under 6 min.) video clip of Dr. Walter Martin on the John Ankerberg Show talking about annihilation, Hell, and the state of the dead: Broadband or Dial-up Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 13, 2007) | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 602 Registered: 4-2006 |
"While living, even the wicked are not separated from God, they still can reach out to Him..." MarysRoses "As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes.'" (Rom 3:10-18) I don't think lost spiritual dead people can reach out to God Almighty, God has to open our eyes before we can see Him. In Jesus, Martin | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 585 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jeremy, thanks for that link. Very interesting! I have a book of Walter Martin's, as well as some old audio tapes, and have always wondered what he looked like! hehe. I love how easy he his to understand, and how clear his explainations are. No confusion there ~ Leigh Anne | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2007 |
Mwh, I should clairify. I didn't mean that they could do so on their own power. While still living though, they do have the choice of responding to His grace if God does reach out to them. After death, that is no longer a possibility. If somehow that conflicts with your perspective, I'm sorry, my understanding is that anyone who responds to God's grace can be saved, that none are predestined to hell. Some may be predestined to heaven, possibly. I was just trying to share how I resolved the idea of an eternal hell with a loving God, in the process of reclaiming my Christian faith. MarysRoses | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 55 Registered: 5-2007 |
Good Morning All, To try to respond to everyone at once: (Responding from memory only) I consider the soul as the breath of life or the life force from God. I my thinking, I think our souls are one and the same as who we are in total. In other words, even though we occupy a physical body, our mind represents who we are in our souls. I say this because we are responsible for what we do with our minds and body. Thus , I tend not not divide the soul from the body in the present sense. But i acknowledge that our soul is who we are and that when our body dies, that breath of life, the life force and "Perhaps" the total recording of who we are , the engram, the record, the essence and tracings of our all in all is kept with God. He says be afraid of who can destroy both body and soul. So I must assume a continuity here. The body is a vessel, the soul is who we are as beings. I do not think we have a conscious existance apart from the body unless God so directs. For example Moses, Elijah and those who were taken up at the ascension. But even in those cases, I think they still have the mortal bodies for now. I am not sure about that. Otherwise, dead is dead. period. No ghosts of the departed. No familiar spirits. The dead know not anything. That means, the body and the soul to me. I have never read scripture to support a conscious soul for man after death. As far as revelation. I am unable to lock on to much of the symbolism and I do not trust that anyone is able to do so. Some is plain, but most is interpretative and conjecture. Spinning my wheels. I abhor double speak. You can't depend upon it, you can only guess and you can't treat anything as doctrine when it comes from constructs of best guesses. Mental validation thru repetition is a trap. I admitt my frustration is venting here. Please forgive me. I require understanding to obey. I refuse to guess unless I have no choice. Beyond that , God gave me common sense. I am using what He gives me. Eternal. Time jumping, time warps, all this belongs to God. But in as much as Hell and death. Dead is dead, destroyed is dead and burned up is gone. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 56 Registered: 5-2007 |
Grace-alone wrote: "the thought of an eternal Hell really doesn't bother me. I'm curious to know why it bothers you. Will belief in this doctrine change your relationship with the Lord, or the way you envision Him? " My reply: I cannot see any love nor semblance of justice to inflict an ongoing in action , in progress, state of punishment that never concludes. To cease life, to end life is one thing. To maintain or suggest a defacto imortality in hell and or in suffering for eternity is contradictory to the often repeated concept of death. The wages of sin is death. Not imortality to a hell zone. I picture hell as not yet existing. The lake of fire is future tense. It is an event. It starts and it ends. The story of Lazurus that Jesus told was figurative, alergorical. Other forms of hell: Simply the state of the dead. Neutral. and The bottomless pit, abyss, bound etc... To my understanding , this is Earth itself. Thus when Satan is bound. Simply he has no one to tempt and He cannot leave earth. I cannot concieve that God would take a creature of his and torment it for eternity. This thought to me is abhorent and it is not what any stretch of the mind could be concieved as coming from our Loving God. I maintain that Hell is eternal in the sense that life has ended, the soul is destroyed as well as any physical body, that it is permanent and final. The uses of the word eternal and forever have multiple meanings and uses in language and writing styles. In my common sense, collectively, logically and human ability God has given us. I will not allow this subject to be a mix of constructs and theorys to achieve a position. The scriptures can be simple and impossible all at the same time. I can only be responsible for what I understand and what makes sense to me. But i will not make leaps of conjecture and them try to convince myself of something that defies reason. Consider this. I do not believe that the SDA got "everything" wrong. It seems to me that if it is SDA , then it must be wrong. That is illogical. But this brings up another point. I find that I no longer have confidence in any organized religon as the end all and be all of any authorative doctrine point. NO ONE can verify or prove anything. Everyone has a bias. Without exception. That is why we call it a matter of faith. I believe certain religons and churches are healthier than others. But NO ONE has 100% accuracy. It just is. Knowing that, diffuses a lot of my frustrations. That is something Colleen has helped me discover. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1873 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jim wrote: "He says be afraid of who can destroy both body and soul. So I must assume a continuity here." Actually, the whole verse says:
So those who kill our bodies are not able to kill our souls. That means that when our bodies die, our souls go on living ("unable to kill the soul"). Also, notice that when speaking of Hell, in the second half of the verse, Jesus does not use the word "kill" but instead says "destroy" ("ruin"/"render useless"). So in Hell, the body and soul are not "killed" but are "destroyed." And as I showed above, Revelation defines "destruction" (Rev. 17:8, 11) as being "tormented day and night forever and ever" in the lake of fire (Rev. 19:19-21, 20:10). And if we are going to say that "they will reign forever and ever" in Revelation 22:5 really means "forever and ever" then we must say that "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" in Revelation 20:10 also really means "forever and ever." Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 14, 2007) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 58 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am discontinuing this debate. It is an exercise in circular reasonings. I will be receptive as God enables me to grasp and understand. I have my own convictions and that is the way it is. At least for now. I do not close my mind to anything God wants me to know and I do continue my studies and prayer. I shall agree to disagree. Thanks, Jim | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2007 |
Jim I agree with all you said above. We might be in the minority, but I agree. I can not believe in eternal torment. I have learned over the last few years that trying to attain a complete understanding of doctrines like this is not productive for me. Since leaving the SDA church I am dedicated to more fully understanding the gospel, the love of God, the sacrifice of Jesus, and my role in the entire plan. I am living to be an ambassador of Christ. I am dedicated to living in freedom from the legalism of the SDA church and I will not let myself become bogged down trying to understand everything. Laurie | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 586 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jim, I don't see any circular reasonings. I would like to understand what you intended when you started the thread. Did you just want to make the declaration that you don't believe in an eternal Hell? Every time someone replies I get the feeling that you're saying "Nope, I don't care what you say, I'm not going to believe it." No one here wants to force you into anything. Hell is just a subject that, if you're a believer, you don't have to worry about. I wonder, are anxious about it? (I'm sorry if that's too personal a question - you don't have to answer) I do appreciate all your honesty, and I'm glad you're here. In peace, Leigh Anne | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 587 Registered: 6-2006 |
Welcome Laurie!! You're among friends here.  Leigh Anne | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1100 Registered: 4-2000  |
Unquestionably, the SDA doctrine about the state of the dead is one of their most deceptive beliefs. Soul sleep and conditionalism, together with their exclusive investigative judgment alibi, affects the nature of Christ, the nature of man, and the nature of salvation (soteriology). An important church council, the Council of Chalcedon in A. D. 451, was largely convened to correct the heresy of soul sleep and annihilationism. Centuries later, the great Reformer, John Calvin, devoted his first literary work to debunk this aberration of the Christian faith. The theory of annihilationism in which the wicked pass into nonexistence either at death or at the resurrection was first advanced by Arnobius, a fourth-century "Christian" apologist [see Baker's Dictionary of Theology, page 184]. Satan still does not want sinners to be concerned about eternal punishment--merely a slap on the wrist will suffice as a quick-fix to culminate a profane life. Under annihilationism, Adolf Hitler would receive the same quick-fix as the garden-variety pagan. Which view of death does Satan want you to believe in (be honest now)? Furthermore, the unconfessed and unforgiven sins of the ungodly are forever before the Father. Interestingly and strikingly, the Scriptures portray how the wicked will actually beg for annihilation in asking for the rocks and mountains to fall on them to hide them "from the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16). However, in spite of their frantic pleas, suicide and/or annihilation will not be permitted to substitute for their "eternal punishment" (Matt. 25:46). Hell is so hard for people to believe that it required Jesus Himself to verify its existence. Most of what we know about hell was taught by Jesus. It reveals His great love for us. Those persons who end up in the eternal torment of hell are without any excuse. The only alternative for annihilation is quarantine (i.e., evil angels are kept "pits of darkness" as recorded in 2 Peter 2:4 NASB). And that is precisely what hell is--quarantine or separation. How could a loving and just God eliminate his crowning jewels of creation simply because they utilized their divinely-endowed ability to disagree with him? Since human beings are fashioned into the very spirit image of God, zapping them out of existence would do violence to His nature. For believers death means being "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8). That is why He promised the penitent thief, "Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). That is why Paul described departing the body to be with Christ as "better by far" than remaining in the body (Phil.1:23). And that is why Scripture speaks of deceased human beings as souls "under the altar" (Rev. 6:9) and as the "spirits of righteous men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6053 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, I understand your frustration. You can trust God to teach you what He wants you to know and understand. He asks only that you be receptive to Him, that you submit yourself to Jesus and to His word. He will teach you, and you can trust Him. I continue to learn and see new depths and nuances and glimpse new looks at reality that startle me. God never leaves us on our own when we are His. When our commitment is to honor Him, to walk in truth and to know reality, He is faithful to heal us and teach us. You can trust this issue of hell to Him. My ongoing struggle is to give up my conditioned responses so I can actually embrace what God teaches me. That is something we all continue to deal with. But when you pray for God to teach you truth and are willing to submit your life to Him and His word, He will teach you according to His time table. He is faithful—and He never fails to astonish and surprise me. And it's always exciting and reassuring to learn what He teaches! Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 867 Registered: 9-2006  |
This morning as I read this thread the power suddenly went off plunging me into darkness, my computer was useless. The Bible speaks much about darkness and light; David said that Gods word was a light unto his path and a lamp unto his feet. In our modern times we depend on electricity and the light, without it we would be plunged back into the stone age. We are creatures of light, Jesus encouraged us to “work while it is yet day for the time would come when no man can work. He talked about the light of the body, the eye and so forth. Before he reached down for me I was “Spiritually blind” but when he did, it was as if a light came on and I could see things that I could not see before. It illuminated sin, and himself and he continually shines a light into my Spirit with the penetrating light of his word illuminated by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is light, he brightens and aluminates my spirit and causes me to rejoice in that light. This light is not like what some describe on here as simply the mind, it goes deeper that my mind, it is as Jesus said, out of your belly shall flow rivers of living water, my screen name denotes the rivers of living water that began to flow when Jesus in his glorious mercy shined the light of his love into my life. The song amazing grace describes that “Was blind but now I see”. Through the light of faith I am satisfied that that light will never go out but will shine more and more unto the perfect day when he will bathe me forever in the light of his love. Sin will no more threaten with its gloomy clouds of darkness, I will be forever bathed in the light of his countenance and the sun will never set. Men stumble in the darkness of sin today with an unrepentant heart, as the light begins to try to illuminate them some flee back into the darkness and refuse to come to the light. Jesus is that light, he is the light of the world and if we do not run to that light eventually we will be a living, light seeking, spiritual man that will be plunged into total absolute darkness and just like the Bible predicts before hand, there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. There is natural light and there is spiritual light, our mind and eyes are the means by which that light is transmitted to most of us but what of a person born blind? Is it his brain that aluminates? Something has gone wrong, his eyes and brain cannot transmit light. There are many on here and I have read it so many times, it is repeated over and over and over again right on this forum, that when they came out of the darkness of Adventism, it is like a light was suddenly switched on and they could see the word. Why is that do you suppose Jim? Anybody? Jesus shines forth into this world today, he has the light, he is the light, but according to every indication in Gods word he will cut off the light from folk who refuse that light, his will cut them off from the light of himself and separate himself from them and they will be plunged into total darkness and they will gnash and grind their teeth because of that total darkness. Folks, we are made for the light, by the light and for the light and without him we are in total ruin, useless, people who no longer have the light that he furnishes by his glory will forever search for light lost, wandering stars ever searching for the light that we were created to dwell in forever. That will be punishment beyond our ability to take it in, in this present world. Silly, silly people, forever learning and yet never being able to come to the knowledge of the truth. You speak of particulates and logic possessed and human reasoning. What we call darkness in the natural world, when cut off from electricity that we use to illuminate our homes, run our equipment and to function normally in a modern world involuntarily causes us to begin to grind our teeth against the darkness, the longer it stays off the worse it gets, we begin to worry about food spoilage and such and we begin to dread the night and look for a way to get light. Just so, in the day that the spiritual man is cut off from the light that he is created to inhabit, he will grind his teeth against that darkness. I just get to wondering, although I know I won’t have an answer forthcoming and it is an exercise in futility, as I read the Proclamation! That was sent to me, just how many Adventist who have light shone, flee back into the darkness of Adventism. How many come here and read the testimonies that lay in the pages of this bit bucket we call a forum, turn and flee back into the darkness of Adventism. Can anyone tell me? I suppose not. I guess I’m done. River | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 59 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am not simply stating that I had an imovable position about hell or soul death. I was asking for view points and I have consodred them, still doing so in fact. I also continued studying the subject, via the web, my Bible and so on. What I discover is this , I can readily see where both sides get their conclusions. But I submit that this may be a subject that cannot be firmly settled by virtue of the limitations of human reason and finite resource information. So much of it is subjective and I believe much is conjecture on both sides. Am I looking for a formula? No, just what I need to establish a sense of understanding to the extent of my needs. Faith comes by hearing. I spent many years doing what I thought was right. To have so much now in doubt has equated to not trusting anything unless I really have a conviction. It is not about games or prejudging. I can have an open mind to new understandings, but even the Bible warns about doubts and double mindedness. I don't want to be tossed back and forth. So the roots of faith must stike deep to hold fast anchor points. Faith that is based upon every wind of doctrine is no faith at all. Prove all things , that is in scripture. My position about hell is based upon my what I feel more than anything. Mostly, God could not be that cruel. You can't have God's magnitude of Love and still inflict eternity of pain on a creature. It makes ZERO sense. I believ God will punish porpotionately by the duration of Burn time. But it does end. I have not tried to insult anyone. I respect everyones positions. Thank You all. Jim | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 60 Registered: 5-2007 |
Laurie, Thank You. Don't let me confuse you. I am new here too. I am just being honest. And I think this place is where it is safe to be just that. I am askig certain questions, because things have to do with other things. We all have unique views and circumstances. I wish you all the best ! Grace, By circular reason, I mean that we can only debate within the confines of what is available to us, namely the Bible. Thus no matter how many times we read the same texts , the apply the understanding we ultimately run in circles that at best intersect other circles. That means , to me, that in a closed system, missing or incomplete data cannot be verified or retrieved. We are left to conjecture, interpretations, extrapolations, opinions, faith. Some doctrines are a lot easier to agree on.Others, not so easy. I do not consider it insurmountable. There will always be things I do not know or understand. I trust God for what I do not know just as much as what He wants me to know. Jesus put up with clouded minds all the time while on earth. He knows how we are. River, Particulates........... Every construct opens up conjectures. I have an imagination and I take things to their unintended consequences. It is a gift and perhaps a curse. Is that not what we are doing here afterall. Exploring ? Colleen, Yes, I am frustrated. But I understand, that is part of the process. Thank You for being patient with me. You have helped me a lot ! Steve, Thank You , I appreciate your detail. Takes time to process |
