| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 63 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen, In other postings you often refer to your conculsions about the history or position of SDA. I was reviewing my "Bible Readings for the Home" book. I did not see any teaching on Arianism. Where do you get your conclusions from? Is this a current teaching in SDA? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6060 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, have you seen the latest Proclamation? The article "Discovering the Adventist Jesus" gives much of the historical background and quotes from current authors reflecting the "twisted" view of Jesus within Adventism. The church itself admits the Adventist founders were Arian. It was not until 1946 that the church adopted a statement of belief that admitted the Trinity. Both the article by Rick Langer, "The Tree: Are You Connected" and the "Discovering the Adventist Jesus" examine the effects of founding a church in Arianism. When you read "Discovering...", be sure to read the footnotes. I believe it's footnote #14 that includes quotes from "The Clear Word" that are specifically altered to undermine Jesus' divinity. It also gives the source where you can examine more Clear Word quotes. You can read this issue here: http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2007_MayJun.pdf This should answer your questions. Feel free to ask if you have more! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1878 Registered: 10-2004  |
Jim, regarding your comments about Bible Readings for the Home specifically, I found the following quotes:
(The second link is to a "historical" (Arian) Adventist site.) As Colleen said, the SDA church itself admits that the founders were Arian, and there are quotes from them that admit such in the latest Proclamation! that Colleen linked to above. There are also quotes from the SDA "pioneers" themselves, and also quotes from current Adventism, showing that their current understanding is still heretical and is derived from their Arianism--it is only modified slightly from what they originally taught. The foundational heresy remains. (What else can you do with a foundation but let it remain, without tearing the whole building down?) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 16, 2007) | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 208 Registered: 1-2006  |
Jeremy Thank you for the great links. Bob | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 874 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jim, I have a message for you under Hell Eternal?? I wanted to make sure you seen it. In Christ River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3787 Registered: 3-2004  |
I have been studying the book of Hebrews and this morning I read Heb 12:15 "See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many." NIV The New Living Translation reads "Look after each other so that no of you will miss out on the special favor of God. Watch out that no bitter root of unbelief rises up among you, for whenever it springs up, many are corrupted by its poison." This verse reminded me of this thread and the roots of adventism. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1907 Registered: 10-2004 |
In this post, I am going to "prove" that Mormonism is Trinitarian. As shown here (and by doing a Google search), Mormons do use the word "Trinity." According to some, it seems that this should qualify them as being Trinitarian. Also, according to the standard of some, any group which affirms "one God" and "three persons" should be considered Trinitarian. Well, then, that means that Mormonism is Trinitarian, since even their founding prophet Joseph Smith wrote that the "three persons" are "one God." See the following quotes from the "inspired" writings of Joseph Smith, which are considered to be "official" LDS "Scripture":
So, Joseph Smith affirmed "one God" and "three persons," something that Ellen G. White NEVER did in all of her writings! EGW never said that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost/Spirit were one God. SDA theology professor Dr. Jerry Moon of Andrews University claims: "Since Ellen White clearly held the basic formula of one God in three persons, it can hardly be denied that her view is essentially trinitarian. However, her view differs from traditional trinitarianism in the following important respects." (http://www.atsjats.org/publication_file.php?pub_id=241&journal=1&type=pdf) That is actually a lie--EGW never once in her writings said that the three persons were one God! Of course, it wouldn't have mattered if she had, if she re-defined "one God" like Joseph Smith/the Mormons and also the SDA church have. Even the SDA professor Dr. Moon admits (at the above link) that the EGW/SDA "Trinity" doctrine is "not the same doctrine" (his words!) as the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity! So, in conclusion, if we are going to say that the SDA church has to be Trinitarian because they affirm "one God" and "three persons," then we also must say that the LDS church has to be Trinitarian since they also affirm "one God" and "three persons." Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1142 Registered: 4-2000  |
Excellent comparison, Jeremy! Mormons also lament that the Adventists have stolen their "health message." Interestingly, Mormon students feel very comfortable on SDA college and university campuses today. I know of a devout Mormon student pursuing the Physician's Assistant program at Union College. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6233 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Jeremy, for sharing those telling quotes. A perfect comparison! Yes, Dennis—there are quite a few Mormon students who attend Loma Linda as well. Several years ago one who came through Richard's office for some graphics help told him he really liked Loma Linda because it felt familiar. He also said that the Mormons do not have their own school of dentistry, and Loma Linda is one they recommend. Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 782 Registered: 7-2004  |
Are Mormons considered non-trinitarian because of their statements or is it because of their belief that God used to be a man, is now a God, and we can become a god also? If Mormons didn't have the obviously heretical teaching about the origin of God, most Christians would say they are trinitarian, just as they say about SDA's. While the nuances of understanding are problematic, the real issue with not accepting Mormons as Christians has nothing to do with the wording of their "Trinitarian" statements. And it has nothing to do with them sounding more tri-theistic than trinitarian. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1914 Registered: 10-2004 |
Raven, I have to say that I disagree with your claims. Christian apologists definitely point to the Mormons' tritheistic "Godhead" to say they are not Trinitarian. Even if they didn't have the teachings you mentioned, they would still be condemned (and rightly so) by the Christian community as being non-Trinitarian and non-Christian due to their tritheistic Godhead teaching. Additionally, and this relates to Tritheism also, Christians point out the heresy of the Mormon teaching that God the Father has a body (which Adventism also teaches). Dr. Walter Martin condemned Mormonism on both of these teachings. (Here is an audio file of Walter Martin discussing Mormonism.) Also, see: http://www.carm.org/lds/compare.htm http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_jesus.htm http://www.carm.org/dialogues/lds_numberofgods.htm http://www.watchman.org/profile/ldspro.htm http://www.mrm.org/topics/reviews/different-jesus-christ-latter-day-saints http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims2.htm http://www.probe.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=771 And from another Probe Ministries article:
Also, the official Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod website's document on Mormonism says the following, under "Beliefs and Practices":
So, the Tritheism is the first thing that they point out about Mormonism's teachings about "God." Also, at the FAQs on the official Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod website, they have the following:
(https://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2239) So, the only two teachings they mention here to explain why Mormonism is not Christian are the two I mentioned at the beginning of this post--their Tritheism and the belief that the Father has a body (which necessitates their Tritheism). Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 07, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6244 Registered: 12-2003 |
Wow, Jeremy--those are such revealing quotes. Thank you. Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 784 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks Jeremy - it was just a thought that went through my head. I've heard far more among regular Christians (not the scholarly ones who have done extensive research) that the big problem with Mormons is the fact they believe God used to be a man and we can also become God, and have never really heard any of the same people bring up the tri-theism problem. In addition, many Christians are often confused about subtle terminology between tri-theism and the triune nature of God. That's why I wondered. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 785 Registered: 7-2004 |
This is not exactly simple to sort out. So if someone was baptized in the Mormon church and then wanted to join a Christian church, they would have no choice but to be rebaptized because the Mormon church teaches tritheism and that God has a physical body. Yet a former SDA, whose church does indeed have a history of teaching tritheism and that God has a physical body, would have a choice on whether or not to get rebaptized. Wouldn't it be possible for a Mormon especially raised more currently, to have been taught something that sounded more orthodox and maybe their Mormon baptism felt like the real thing like some of us former SDA's are saying about our SDA baptism. And yet they would have to be rebatized, and we wouldn't necessarily have to. I have considered rebaptism, but didn't for two reasons. One, like Colleen, I felt at the time that I was truly choosing Jesus, was excited to do so, and felt God's presence. Number two, in our Lutheran church, if someone isn't already a baptized Christian (and confirmed) they can't participate in communion. And yet I have been from the time we started attending. It would raise a lot of questions and would have to be done privately and quietly. On the other hand, it has bothered me that the SDA church has as strange and unorthodox beginnings as the Mormon church that have never been denounced and repented of. How much is an individual responsible for of their church's history and teachings? I didn't even understand most of what the church taught when I was baptized at age 12. Does it really all come down to what a church someone is joining says you should do? Because the Mormon doesn't have the option to say they felt their baptism was valid for them personally. |
