| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 850 Registered: 9-2006  |
I have a particularly close friend whom I have known and been in constant contact with for a period of about five years. I know him as a kind and gentle man, serious man; you just get to know these things. Through several avenues, this forum being one, I have come to understand him I think about as well as I will ever be able to. He has never confessed salvation, his words “Oh, I do hope so” keeps ringing in my ears. He gets all excited about the coming Sunday laws and his remark the other day was that “everything our dear Ellen White is coming true, right down to the ‘T’”. Wonder what she said that is coming true right down to the ‘T’? Constantly in turmoil, doesn’t deal in hope and confidence at all, always voices negatively as life comes at him, always something wrong and very few days, if any of rejoicing over what Jesus has done. The physical things of this life seem to effect him more, you know, the aches and pains and discomforts, he is getting up there in years and so it’s not getting any better. Its just something new every day. Always fearful of what’s just around the corner. It doesn’t seem to be the aches and pains particularly, I just can’t put my finger on it for you but to say the lack of confidence and hope that goes with it and accompanies it. Accompanying this is the desire to please an investigating savior who does not seem to know him so perhaps tests him to see if he has attained purity or perhaps to see if he will remain faithful to his beliefs? Seem he sees God as an unknowing, coldly curious investigating God who probes the mind of men to see perhaps what he might learn about that man and learn if he perhaps comes up to his standards. I have a tendency to think that this lack of hope and confidence in the Lord magnifies the things that come at him and perhaps keeps him from being cheerful in all weathers or really, any weathers for that matter. He not only has to deal with what life throws at him but has to deal with pleasing an investigating savior at a church where I really doubt that a gospel of hope is ever preached, if it did then surely it would reflect in his everyday life at least at some point and what does that speak to the importance of having a church that preaches the gospel of hope, this for the ones who may be searching for a good church. Perhaps it might be good to find something besides a dead church, life is going to keep coming at you, as the children say in playing hide and seek “Ready or not, here I come”. The fires of hope and confidence in the savior burning in our lives constantly I believe does nullify the effects of living in a world that does not produce hope and the aches and pains of being in a body that is deteriorating. Fear, lack of confidence in ones self to produce the things pleasing to God, lack of confidence for a cure for the sin that lays within us I do believe would tend to magnify the effects from a deteriorating body because this deterioration brings the threat of none existence and after that the threat of standing before a Holy God without the benefit of a mediator. The effect that this friendship has had on me has been profound in that it caused me to re-examine my own faith and to re-examine the word of God and to investigate and inquire as to what sayeth the Lord. This investigation has had the effect, I believe, of reaffirmation, a probing of the things of this life and a reaching and stretching of my faith. I believe this investigation into the very heart of Adventism has tossed me to and fro, stirred me, and struck me and torn me and redelivered me onto that solid rock Christ Jesus our Lord and has profoundly effected me in such a way that to plumb the depths of it is beyond my ability to know or understand. It has struck fuel to fires that had lain dormant as embers within waiting to be ignited resulting in a faith and surety and love of the savior that I did not know could exist and it has renewed me and revived me in a profound way. That’s all the word I have for it. “Profound”. My investigation into the very heart of Adventism is akin to plumbing the depths of a darkness that I never knew existed although I have been involved in deliverance ministry and seen things that would blow the mind of most of you here on this forum. I don’t say this with a one up-man-ship attitude, I just am trying to tell the truth, people falling on the floor and crawling on their back like something that resembles a snake trying to get out the door, now that will give you a clear picture of why Lucifer was described as a serpent in genesis, if you ever see it you will know what I am talking about. People talking with a voice that would seem impossible for the vocal cords to produce, hate spewing like a bad wreck. Why am I telling you this? I thought that I had seen it all, thought that I received the ‘T’ shirt, thought that I was something special, I thought that I had seen the heart of darkness. I hadn’t seen anything. What I saw was only the manifestation on the body, a knee jerk so to speak. As I probed deeper and deeper into what we call Adventism I realized that I was looking into the face of evil, a leering, diabolically hateful and deceiving force. I would have to look away and then turn again to look at that thing. This thing is a squirming, churning, roiling, black force that has no one face, constantly changing shape. This is the spirit that you and I are dealing with I am very confident. At the surface of all this my friend stands, miserable in his condition. His own stubborn fault? I don’t know folks, all I see is my friend. I don’t see faults, failures or blame, all I see is my friend. So what to do? If I go to renouncing White or Adventism I feel sure it would drive him away, not cause him to renounce Adventism but flee to Adventism. So I have come to the conclusion that if anything is to be done by me besides prayer for him and them is to speak of that renewed and profound blessed hope and to be aware and not fall into the trap of agreement with the works of darkness. It reminds me of the old song the children used to sing back in the seventies. “If your saved and you knowit, clap your hands!” Ever hear the children sing that? “If your saved and you knowit, then your life will surly showit, if your saved and you knowit clap your hands!” Its fun to watch these kids, they got no theology, little trusting souls. What is the point of my writing this? Friends there is no point. I just felt the need to write it, that’s all. Maybe in writing it all down I can solidify my thinking, find solid ground in my dealings with these people. Who knows, maybe it will help someone on the forum. Thanks for listening. River | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 951 Registered: 8-2004  |
Thank you River. I never heard the version "If you're saved and you know it". I always heard the "If you're happy and you know it" at SDA church gatherings. Sometimes I was happy and sometimes I wasn't! I agree with you that taking God to be a "unknowing, coldly curious investigating" being drains hope and leaves the soul fearful and tremulous. I also agree that you're denouncing EGW or the SDA church would likely drive him deeper into 'the church'. What a hard thing it is for those who think they see to come to see how blind they are! I know in my own case it took a miracle that I thank God every day for. Yet God loves him more than you do. Stick close to God (I know, I know, preaching to the choir here) and listen close to God, and let you light shine! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 43 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, You have a unique viewpoint more often than not. Some of what you describe is what it looks like after someone has lost a fight. Paula Poundstone had a skit about her cats. She said when they misbehaved, she would squirt them with water. In their confusion they would run to her for protection. Sometimes that is how we are with SDA or perhaps God as well. We don't know where the pain or trouble is coming from , but we run to the only place we know. One of the main problems I experience and I offer is that, in order to lead people off a sinking ship. They have to have at least a life raft to swim too. In a way, I view people like myslef and others on this forum (the new ones at least) as people in the water, theor ship has already sunk, or they jumped into the water. What now? The strong ones can keep swimming , using the strength God gives them and what they have. The weak ones, I wonder, will they exhaust themselves? Will they swim back to the familiar ship they jumped from, or if that ship sank already, will they simply just drift clinging to any floatsam that drifts within reach. Or will they be rescued? Will a Guiding beacon be provided, will there be lines cast into the water? This forum is providing a fantasic function. If I could offer this one observation, (I know I am not th eforst to say it) There needs to be a bridge or vessel standing ready to pull these people out of the water as quickly as possible. That means study resources on finding felowship, the pitfalls, the attitudes and so on taht will help people make that leap and swim for the lifelines. This is the hardest part. the part that takes so long. Finding a safe haven after leaving SDA. For your friend. Simply letting him see there is a safe alternative is availble will help him more than arguments. People will swim to safety if they recongnize it is there for them. My 2 cents worth. Jim | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 44 Registered: 5-2007 |
My typos are bad! Sorry  | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 851 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jim, your 2 cents is worth a lot more than two cents. Using your own analogy, and my own personal experience on the sea and it's way, you have to depend on the life vest and your compass, always trust your instruments, failure to do that has thrown many a good man into disaster, your compass is Jesus and your life vest is his salvation provided and he has provided other instruments for you besides himself. These on the forum are your “telltails” to show you which way the wind is blowing and they shine a beacon, “This way Jim, this way Jim”, through the pages of this forum you will find people that have attained to a safe harbor. Listen to them, learn to see the important message that are said over and over and over on here, filter out the background noise and fine tune in to what they are telling you. If you do so you will see that they are send constant return signals to people that are sending an S.OS. That’s what this forum is about. He has provided you with friends who understand and will not berate you and they are very patient. Listen when they speak. Take it to heart my friend. Your friend River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 852 Registered: 9-2006 |
And while I am on a preaching jag, this forum I believe is a lifeline being thrown to the ones that have plunged into the water from a sinking ship. Even the rats are leaving that ship boy and I wouldn't want to be on her when she goes down, don't be hanging on the sides of that decrepid old vessel. she's a goin under and you can believe it, she gonna end up ten fathoms down in Davy Jones locker. I got a sneaky feeling God ain't going to have a lot of patience with folk who spurn his only Son. I better quit fore I git started. River | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 580 Registered: 6-2006  |
River, I understand how you're feeling and Jim, I really appreciate the word picture you're using about the sinking (or sunk) ship. I see my in-laws on that ship, which is on fire, with the big gash in the hull tetering and and bobbing on the verge of sinking. Maybe like River, I want so badly to help them, or rescue them, but they don't think they need rescuing, except from the dreaded "Sunday law" which they have this weird fixation on. Logic won't work - they don't want to believe that the Jews and Muslims and businesses in our country won't allow for a Sunday law, let alone that the Christians couldn't care less. Do I aproach the subject? Do I even bother? I know it's a fight just waiting to happen. Yet, I want them to know how peaceful and joyful (and easy!) it is on the other side, waiting and resting on our Lord Jesus. River, you write some beautiful posts on this forum, and I can tell you that your friend is very blessed to have you. Keep encouraging him. I'll pray that the Lord directs you and your words. I'm sure you're in his life for a good reason! And you're in here for a good reason too. Leigh Anne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 853 Registered: 9-2006 |
Leigh Anne, You hang in there girl you are not alone. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, I am listening. Filtering, pondering , absorbing. This is a year of change for me. This forum has accellerated much of my research and has provided insights that would have taken much longer to discover on my own. I expect as time goes on. Someone will be writing books based upon this forums discoveries. Do you see what I am refrreing to is that there are many commonalitys that are basic paths to take in discovering our way. This info is out there, scattered. Likely it has been available in many forms for ages. Things come together. Yes , I still have my own doubts. Still that urge to look back. Wondering if I am making a mistake. But , I have learned so much new information that it is almost impossible to go back now. So , I keep checking, double checking and fog or not, slowly make headway. | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 109 Registered: 8-2005 |
River:"It reminds me of the old song the children used to sing back in the seventies. “If your saved and you knowit, clap your hands!” Ever hear the children sing that? “If your saved and you knowit, then your life will surly showit, if your saved and you knowit clap your hands!” " I agree with Mary, Until today I've never heard that version of that song. I can remember singing it all the time from cradle roll on up. But it was never "Saved" only "Happy". Sad commentary on Adventism, huh? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1859 Registered: 10-2004  |
The "happy" version is simply the original, secular version of the song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_You're_Happy_and_You_Know_It It ain't even religious! I know I knew the "saved" version from somewhere growing up, but I don't know if it was in Adventism (probably not!). Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1860 Registered: 10-2004 |
Compare these two Google searches: Number 1 Number 2 Sad commentary indeed, Brian! Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 854 Registered: 9-2006 |
Mary, Brian3 and Jeremy, I guess I unconsciously gave you the Pentecostal version of the song, mighta known that wouldn't a been in a Adventist church, now you guys caught me being naive again. Maybe that is why I place no blame, Picture this man as a little boy being taught that Adventism is happiness and piece of mind. Generational error. Steeped in generational error passed down mostly. That is your battle Jim, to extricate yourself from generational error. I suppose some have looked back and gone back into it and I believe in my own heart that they end up neither Adventist nor Evangelical, a very dangerous position to be in my honest opinion but what do I know? River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 855 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jim’s analogy of the sea reminds me of a time a few years back when my brother and I had a trip planned on my boat so he came over from Vegas to Oxnard Ca, where I had my boat moored, we were to head out for the southern tip of Anacapa Island some miles out for a day of diving in the rich kelp beds that are there. The next morning when we got to the harbor the fog was socked in thick so you could only see maybe twenty or thirty feet, I had laid a compass course on the chart the night before so we headed out. The fog was so thick we had to motor slowly and stop the engines every once in a while to listen for the ships that ply that channel so the going was slow and even though I had plotted my eta I began to have doubts, my brother, not being a sailor didn’t help much, we had gone no more that a half mile before he began to have doubts. He began to voice that as we had been running for some time and I assured him that we could retrace the compass course and find land if we so desired so we motored on in the gloomy fog, me steering by the compass course I had laid the night before, him wanting to turn back about every three minutes, his fear was messing with my head so I said “look, lets just let her run thirty more minutes and that seemed to ease his mind with the thought of turning back in thirty minute’s. So when the thirty minutes was up and no land I said “Let’s give it just another 30 minutes and if you don’t see land I will turn her around, I thought “Lord if within 30 minutes if he don’t see land I am going to have a wild man on my hands and I mights well turn this boat.” I didn’t like the idea because I knew that would just blow the whole plan which took planning and fuel, him leaving his business in Vegas, checking and rechecking diving gear and boat gear. Another fifteen minutes went by, then twenty, then thirty and about that time we broke through the fog and there lay Anacapa in the sun, the southern tip no more than two points off the bow and the kelp beds two hundred feet or so away. The moral of the story is their ain’t no moral unless it is this, maybe sometimes the Lord fogs us in so we will learn to follow him. River | ||
| Sara Registered user Username: Sara Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hey River! Im clapping away to your version! Jeremy, loved the links. Wow, that is powerful in black and white! Sara | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6015 Registered: 12-2003  |
I'm not even sure why, but I'm sitting here crying as I read this thread. I think it's a mixture of things, including a deep recognition of the darkness River describes that summarizes my anxiety, fear, dissonance, and persistent, undefned dread that shaped so much of my past. It's also the gratitude that you, River, have been sent here to help us see what we are often too close to see—yet it is real and it has shaped and held us—all without our conscious awareness. I think my reaction is also partly to the vivid pcture Jim painted of those who are floundering in the water, and perhaps most will sink unless someone or some circumstance gives them the truth about Jesus to hold onto as He transports them to shore. Finally, River's clear identification of generational error strikes my heart deeply. This is the truth. This fact is why those born into Adventism have a harder time recognizing the gospel than to many who are converted to it. Converts often know Jesus before they convert. Rediscovering the gospel helps them process out more quickly than those who believe the gospel IS the Three Angel's Messages. This fact of generational error, I believe, is also why there is such undefined but real pride in the numbers of generations they can boast-—the more, the better. The power of this generational error is exactly what you have suggested, River--it calls deep and subtle heresy, TRUTH. Adventists BELIEVE, sincerely, that their understandings are eternal truth. They believe they are rooted in God. Nothing can break this deep confidence except the intervention of the Holy Spirit, and when the Holy Spirit brings conviction, we must be willing to "know". This all reminds me of what Dale Ratzlaff has said, "There are two kinds of Aventists: the deceived and the dishonest." I believe there are also combinations of the two...but because of the subtle but profound darkness, "logic" won't help those who struggle. They are not struggling against a philosophy; they are struggling against a spiritual power. We have to keep praying and shining the light of Jesus' love and forgiveness and the reality of our need for a Savior. Hope does not exist apart from Jesus. We carry Him into the world, and we pray for others to be awakened to recognize Him. Praise God for Jesus. Colleen | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 486 Registered: 11-2004 |
River, Thank you for this thread. Praise God you are there for your friend. I know I met a young Christian woman as an SDA that struck me - I saw life in her. True life. Not the going-through-the-motions-I-wanna-please-Jesus life, but true life that can only be found when someone is born again. I saw this life when I came out of the coocoon of Adventism and was with non-SDAs. That was early on in my journey out of Adventism, but it had a remarkable impact on me. It was then that I realized that maybe Adventists don't have it "all". I thought I was witnessing when I told others I went to church on Saturday and here was this non-SDA who shined with the love of Jesus. How pitiful was I? My views started changing and when I talked with a family member I was told that maybe it would have been better if I stayed in an Adventist environment  I pray God will use you to shine the love of Jesus into the darkness of Adventism just like He used that young Christian woman so many years ago to help me see. | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 125 Registered: 10-2006 |
River, I had to print your words and put them inside my Bible. You hit me hard with something that I try not to think about much anymore. ADVENTISM IS MOSTLY ABOUT PRIDE, AN UGLY THING THAT DESTROYS ANY REAL JOY IN KNOWING THAT JESUS LOVES US AND HAS SAVED US. ADVENTISM KILLS PEOPLE BY GIVING A FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY IN THEMSELVES. THE NAME JESUS IS USED AS A PASSWORD TO ENTER A FALSE RELIGIOUS SYSTEM THAT CLAIMS IT'S SUPERIOR POSITION OVER ALL THOSE OUTSIDE. ADVENTISM CLAIMS TO WITNESS WHEN IN REALITY IT PARADES IT'S SELF-PROCLAIMED VIRTUES. ADVENTISM USES THE NAME JESUS TO SELL ADVENTISM, WHILE CLAIMING TO USE ADVENTISM TO SELL JESUS. Seventh Day Adventists are people like the rest of us. They deal with deceptions and falsehoods like anyone else. We all need to bury ourselves in Christ and His Word. I pray for my family everyday that they will turn to Him only for answers and direction. I share your sadness Colleen. Adventism not only makes me tired, it makes me sad. steve | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 856 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well thank you U2bsda, I appreciate your kind words, this particular man, and I believe like you were, when you met this Christian woman, is a very earnest man, he is just messed up by what he believes is truth. Like Colleen said Dale said "There are two kinds of Adventists: the deceived and the dishonest." And then she went on to say that " I believe there are also combinations of the two...but because of the subtle but profound darkness, "logic" won't help those who struggle. They are not struggling against a philosophy; they are struggling against a spiritual power. I believe Colleen is right square dab on the money with that. I believe this man falls under the extreme, the deceived, I tend to think that is where you fell in that category. God sees these things and God allows who he wants to see what. Spiritual discernment is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Corinthians. I don’t get feathers in my hat for being there for my friend, God has allowed me to see what he wanted me to see in this man and left up to me I would probably just get rid of this whole Adventism thing, without the Holy Spirit I am nothing and without him I am not going to get anywhere. There is no good thing in me accept the Holy Spirit abiding in me. An Adventist lady who was ask to open in prayer, and I am not free to tell you about that, but she said something that touched me, her words “Give us the peace that we long to have” kind of humbles you don’t it? They long for the peace that is already available to them because of Jesus blood atonement. I think that this lady reflected the prayer of many an Adventist and many a protestant if you want the truth. I am waiting to see the end of this thing and what God will do and it is exciting to see what the Lord will do once we begin to make up our minds to serve him day to day in whatever capacity becomes available as we make ourselves available to him. Lets look at what God said about Caleb in Numbers 14:24 But my servant Caleb, because he had a diffrent spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it. The KJV reads “another Spirit” but I tend to think the word “different spirit” is more to the correct translation. God sees what we are and who we are, there are some in the Adventist church who have that “different spirit” that God is looks for and he leads them out. I am trying to make a point by using that scripture not change it or proof text it. What I am trying to put down is that God knows hearts and minds and I do believe in order to be led one has to be leadable. Lead-a-ble. Now I can set here and get into conjecturing and say “How many times have they heard the truth but refused it? Will they eventually be led out? My take is this, if God wants to strive with them one more time or forty more times, who am I to question his wisdom? My place is just to make myself available to God and not be worrying about who else is following or going to follow. Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Gods Spirit strives with us today, him, me, you, but we are also flesh and death will end that for us. So is as I said, I have just made up my mind to speak of that blessed hope to him and them and I will leave the striving with God unless otherwise instructed. Me, I don’t know what God is doing half the time and the other half I don’t know what he is doing. I have just about made up my mind that is about all any of us can do for our Adventist friends and loved ones and there is nothing difficult or technical about that. Maybe that is what God has been waiting for me to get around to. Nothing like waiting on an Arky, we Arkys are slow as cream rising on buttermilk. But God is patient and long suffering with even the likes of me. You know brothers and Sisters, I suspect that God allows us to flop around out there simply because he knows we have got to get our flopping done and then he leads us gently into his truth. I spend more time flopping than flipping. God is a great fisherman and he knows how to pay out line and reel in without tearing us fishes mouth up and he don’t lose any off the hook, he don’t go home and say “I caught a biggun but he got off the hook”. I do believe it would save us a lot of grief if we didn’t do so much flopping but one thing we are good at, we are expert floppers. One time in college, Admin called me and said I didn’t have the prerequisite course and that I had to take Algebra 101 in order to take the courses I was taking and get a degree, I went to arguing about it, I was already carrying a full load but I still had to take algebra. Night classes! One of the prerequisites I think we need to have and maintain is a “teachable Spirit”, if we don’t have that and maintain it we are at a great disadvantage. We may not like the prereq’s but they are necessary so we might as well buckle down and get to it. IMHO. Steve, I believe you pinned Adventism about right but God will bring that spirit of pride low sure as I’m sitting here. I may not be much in the smarts department but I know that. I don’t know what I said that you got any good out of but I want to humble myself under his mighty hand this morning and to be used of him, if anything I say brings blessing I praise God for it, that is my desire is to bless his people with encouragement and words of faith. I pray for God to bless you this morning and also your family Steve. Don’t get too tard meboy. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3750 Registered: 3-2004  |
River, I truly believe God put you in your Adventist friend's life. God knows the person that you are and how to use you with the person and the other adventists. I will remember you and your adventist friends in my prayers. At this time, I have no contact with adventists. For that I am thankful as I have no one telling me I am lost, etc. I do not forget to pray for them though. So with your adventist friends, just keep telling them God loves them. Eventually, the Holy Spirit will get the message through to them. That is the way it is with my family. I just keep praying for them. I leave the rest up to God. He is faithful and so awesome. Diana |
