| Author | Message | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 56 Registered: 4-2007 |
Just in case you find this interesting On 4TG there is a thread ‘New Sanctuary Book’ The author of the book: Bradley Williams There seems to be a lot of opposition to his position Here is a snippet from his posts and my response (for what it’s worth) Pastor Williams said: ‘However, a positive outcome in the judgment is based upon a life that demonstrates that the faith that accepts Christ’s righteousness is a faith that is genuine. How can this be demonstrated? It is demonstrated by faithfulness. Yes, faith is proven by faithfulness. And faithfulness is proven by demonstration (not by assent or agreement)–that is, a demonstration of human works, words, thoughts, motives, etc. Noah believed God and that is what saved him in the most. My Response: A Christian exchange of thought that does not center on God and His work on behalf of sinful man serves little purpose. To discuss man’s pitiful works to please, prove or demonstrate anything to a Holy God is just that, pitiful. It appears that priorities have become skewed. The bible is not centered on man but on God. It’s not about man coming to God but God coming to man. It is not about the works of man but the work of God. It’s not about the faithfulness of man but the Faithfulness of God. It’s not about what man can do to save himself but what God has already done to save man. It’s not about man trying to follow God but God leading man. Instead of the over emphasis of looking for ‘demonstrations’ that prove our faith, our time would be better spent examining the demonstration of God’s faithfulness, that He died that we might live – a ‘demonstration of God’s love. That through faith alone in Christ alone we have forgiveness of sins – a ‘demonstration’ of God’s grace. That Christ’s resurrection is a promise of resurrection for those in Christ – a ‘demonstration’ of God’s power. When I examine my ‘demonstrations’ I must echo the Apostle Paul when he said ‘all my righteousness is as filthy rags’. My salvation rests solely in God’s love, grace, mercy and power and His faithfulness to His promises. Yours in Christ, John Douglas | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2007  |
John, When a person brings up the subject of our works "proving" our faith, they are usually making reference to the book of James where he discusses this subject. Study through James and see if you don't find the following: 1. Real faith produces real Spirit led good works. 2. Therefore, if we have a real faith in Jesus Christ, James says that we can expect to see the works that will flow from our faith. 3. In-other-words, the right faith produces good works. 4. What he does not say is that works produce faith. This would be a contridiction with other scripture, especially the places that clearly teach that our works are as filthy rags and can not produce righteousness. Of course, this is why we need Jesus Christ as our savior. Faith generates works, not the other way around. Anyway, I say again, study through the book of James and see what it says for yourself. Phil | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 57 Registered: 4-2007 |
Thanks Phil for your reply and I have read the book of James and certainly have no disagreement with him. My contention is that we need to focus on the Author of our faith, not the results. To me, focusing on results is akin to looking backwards to where I've been rather than looking foreward to where I'm going. John | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 277 Registered: 2-2005 |
Just as an FYI, the thread in question is found here: http://www.forthegospel.org/forum/general_discussion/new_sanctuary_book Seeing a "minister of the gospel" argue in favor of salvation by works is always interesting. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 58 Registered: 4-2007 |
It's NOT works - IT's faith? Obviously, we do works to prove to God that we have faith. Now if God must SEE our works in order to determine we have faith than God must be incapable of reading our hearts. If that logic applies we could do works without faith and God would not know the difference - ya think? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6025 Registered: 12-2003  |
Oh, my goodness...Brad Williams asked Richard and me to meet with him about four or so years ago when he was writing his book. He knows my in-laws--my MIL is quoted as one of the endorsements on his book. Brad wanted to meet with Richard and me three times...he said that would be all he'd need...to discuss the IJ with us. He believed that he could prove from Scripture to us that there is an investigative judgment. I have never spent more fustrating or confusing/dissonant time discussing "theology". He took texts out of context and interpreted them to fit his understanding. The format of our meetings was that he would present his findings, and then at the end we would respond. I took notes while he talked (and we also had a MS of his book), and then we'd address some of the more "dissonant" interpretations. We would go to Scripture texts and show in context what some of his texts actually said, and we'd also go to other texts that clearly stated the security of believers' salvation from the moment of believing in Jesus as one's Savior. It turned out that the discussions were not for the purpose of mutual exchange and learning, but for the purpose of showing us we were in error. There was no willingness to lay aside the Ellen "preset" of an investigative judgment. His arguments were illogical often, and they used the common technique of using words that mean one thing to Adventists and another to Christians. Perhaps the most profound effect I experienced in those three evenings we spent together was confusion. I was not confused about what the Bible said, but Brad's arguments left me confused and feeling slightly depressed. Brad's arguments are not true Adventism, but they are not Biblical Christianity. They are hybridized arguments designed to prop up and explain the existence of the IJ. The thought of trying to read his material makes me feel weary. Quite frankly, Brad needs to know the freeing truth about Jesus and the fact of God's true justice. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3758 Registered: 3-2004  |
Colleen, Brad listed a bunch of Bible texts he uses as "proof". So I have copied them down and am reading each in context. My head spins after reading what he has said. So, I can understand how they made your feel weary. So let us pray for him, that God will get a hold of him. Diana | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 202 Registered: 1-2006  |
I get so frustrated with this! Sometimes I've wondered if maybe there shouldn't be an IJ for those who insist on having one! For David and the rest of us, "If you O Lord kept a record of sin, who could stand?" Ps 130:3 I'll probably regret this! Bob | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 407 Registered: 12-2004 |
Colleen, interesting that you spent time with this Pastor. He does seem to have convinced himself, but he is failing to convince anybody else at 4TG. It seems to me that its just new paint on an old wagon. Looks a little different, but still creaks and squeaks and the wheels wobble. All his arguments still ignore the simple and straightforward words of Jesus in John 5:24 and the word of Romans 1. Seems pretty cut and dried to me. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6030 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yep--that's how it seemed to us! Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 861 Registered: 9-2006  |
Colleen, This thing is a squirming, churning, roiling, black force that has no one face, constantly changing shape. This is the spirit that you and I are dealing with I am very confident. I believe that is why you were left feeling so confused and weary. I am saying this at the risk of sounding like a broken record. If he was trying to justify the IJ it is just another one of those changing faces it sound like to me. What is 4tg please? River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 862 Registered: 9-2006 |
Here, have a book, no, take two or three. On works, personally and not trying to speak not trying to speak for every one else, my reason for my work is simply because I love the Lord, I have never felt a need to demonstrate my faith in any way. I have and do have trepidation at times because I know that I fall so woefully short in knowledge and will to do, the mental wherewithall to do, I feel like a stupid Ox before the Lord but I feel loved also by him, he lets me feel his love in spite of my shortcomings. Now if you will pardon me I am going to the Lord and present my short comings and my poor understanding to him and fall on his mercy and grace. In the meantime, here, have a book. | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 409 Registered: 12-2004 |
Greetings River, 4TG is a ministy to our Adventist friends and family at http://forthegospel.org. In my previous post I was going to suggest that the creaking, squeaking Investigative Judgment could use some Possum grease. Then again I thought, as good as that is for almost anything that ails you, it probably wouldn't help this. Randy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 864 Registered: 9-2006 |
Heh Heh, your probably right Randy. River | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2007 |
Randy, Even here in the Pacific Northwest, we have possum. Apparently some Southern Gentleman settle out here and didn't want to be deprived of his normal diet and brought them with him. Anyway, my dog eats every possum that dares come onto our property so I havn't had the chance to try out any uses for possum grease. As for the IJ topic, sooner of later, this doctrine will bring you to the Scapegoat. Since Jesus Christ is clearly the one that our sins were (past tense) laid on, I have concluded that the whole doctrine is heresy. After all, it is the little lies that tend to be the most dangerous. Having made this determination through prayer and Bible study, the Lord freed me from the emotional hold it had on me and I have never looked back. John and River, In regards to my last post on this thread and yours responses: When I speak of "real faith" I am talking about one that is focused on Jesus Christ. And, I agree; focus on the author of works, not on our "works". As you said, River, there is no reason to feel a "need" to demonsrate works when our focus is right. Anyway, reading and sharing with you and the others is bringing great joy to me. My thanks and focus, stated again, is and should be on our Lord, who is our scapegoat, the one who hung on the cross for our sins. Our hope and the proof of our faith is centered on the fact he didn't stay in the grave. Phil | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6032 Registered: 12-2003 |
Phil, you are absolutely right. And River, I appreciate your continuing to say the truth about what you have seen in Adventism. I know that many people don't want to acknowledge the bottom line darkness of this church, but avoiding it and arguing it away doesn't change reality. That reality is powerful and deluding, and people who don't want to know the true shape of it are vulnerable to its deception and pull, even in subtle ways. Phil, your comment that the IJ brings one sooner or later to the scapegoat is absolutely true. When Adventists argue that the IJ is "different" from the traditional teaching, they still are not embracing the sufficient and completed work of Jesus. Satan still plays a more powerful role in their understanding than he actually has. Jesus still is a fallible Jesus, and salvation is not assured. I'm convinced that no amount of arguing with a true "believer" in the IJ will effect an iota of change. The endless discussions start to remind me of the arguments about the law Paul warns agains in Titus 3:9. The rigid insistence on the IJ resonates of the attitude against which Paul warns in 1 Timothy 1:5-7. When we met with Pastor Williams, we seriously considered bowing out after the first meeting. He had asked us for three meetings, however, and we decided that we needed to honor our original agreement, even though we were convinced the meetings were not for the sake of mutual learning. Instead, he used our meetings to add arguments to his position. We don't regret the time we spent with him—it was probably a good thing for several secondary reasons. No point is served, however, in arguing with someone who has an agenda. God is in control! Colleen | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 29 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen, When I was researching SDA doctrines, I was was using Walter Martin's book as a reference for outline purposes. I believe the Holy Spirit quided me in understanding that he was being far to soft on SDA theology. By that time I well knew that all our sins were laid on Jesus and when I came to the scapegoat, the word heresy exploded in my mind. Knowing who our scapegoat is settled all other issues for me. Phil | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 410 Registered: 12-2004 |
Colleen, I agree strongly with you when you say that no amount of arguing with a true "believer" in the IJ will change theirs minds. I also thought of Titus 3:9. I do however feel that the Holy Spirit can, and will, prompt these people when the timing is right. I believe that the more they study their Bibles, at some point the light will go on. I also believe that the Lord is using the internet to answer questions for many people, as they can see the comparative arguments on topics like the IJ. I don't know if FAF has a website hit counter, but I do know that of this minute, the one thread at 4TG on this book by Brad Williams has had 696 hits, or viewings. Even though I don't think anybody short of the Holy Spirit will change Brad William's mind. The positions presented that refute the IJ doctrine, are a strong and bold witness for the Gospel, and the complete security we have through Christ's sacrifice and the completeness of that grace. The Holy Spirit will work on the hearts and minds of the many that view these discussions. This can be said as well for the topics on the FAF forum. Most of the influence I suspect will be on those who are lurking. While the discussions are helpful for those of us that post, only God knows how many people will be challenged to think, question, and pray by what they see here. Like I said earlier, "new paint on an old wagon". Really, it is another opportunity for the true Gospel to be demonstated as these topics are discussed yet again. I appreciate the time You and Richard spent discussing with Pastor Williams. As you have said many times, God will not waste that witness, even though at the time it seemed like nothing more than an exersize in futility. In the end....God wins!!! Randy | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 203 Registered: 1-2006 |
Colleen, It seems that human centered religion would REQUIRE an IJ or some other equivalent so that adherents can know if they will be saved. I'm beginning to see that belief in an IJ isn't necessarily the real problem, it's just the natural consequence, the next logical step, in a chain of error which starts with an inadequate view (Arian) of Christ If this summary is right, then the real starting question for Adventists (and for all of us) is the same question Jesus asked Peter: "Who do you say that I am?" Get that one wrong and it's pretty much hopeless. Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 205 Registered: 1-2006 |
Colleen and all others in this discussion I would like to apologize for being so blunt in my comments about the IJ--especially post 202 last Sunday, above. Looking back at Adventism it is difficult not to respond in very strong terms. I cannot lift the veil for another person, and voicing my deep frustration (or quoting scripture in frustration) is not likely to help anyone. Bob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6049 Registered: 12-2003 |
Bob, thanks for your vulnerability...truly, I don't believe you offended us...certainly you didn't offend me. Your emotion was completely understandable! I really do agree with your post above where you say the REAL question is, "Who do you say that I am?" Indeed, if we get that wrong, it's pretty much hopeless! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3766 Registered: 3-2004 |
Bob, No offense to me either. Your frustration is very understandable. On CARM where the SDA defend the IJ as Biblical I just say I do not believe it and cannot see it in the Bible verses given. They quit talking to me about it. I will not argue/debate with them about it or any other SDA doctrine. Diana | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 207 Registered: 1-2006 |
Colleen and Diana Thank you for your gracious words. I've appreciated this forum so much, learned so much here. I really appreciate the kindness and patience you both show in your many posts. It's been a real ministry to me. Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 209 Registered: 1-2006 |
I'm feeling a little lazy right now, so thought I'd just copy and paste from a post I made in the IJ discussion at forthegospel.org. Thank you for your invitation to visit this discussion. I must commend you for your patience! I haven’t read much of this discussion, and don’t intend to follow it, but I’ve sometimes wondered what God would be looking for in us when deciding whether we are worthy to be saved, or the criteria for when we’ve done enough. Whenever I think of the IJ I think of Cain’s offering and also the parable of the Kings Feast—those who would bring their own offering or wear their own garments! In the context of this discussion, I’d like to share a couple comments from an article by Brenda Jung’s article “A Time for Truth” in Modern Reformation, Jan/Feb 2007. Thank you for telling me about White Horse Inn. Regarding Sola Gratia . . . “That regeneration and every part of salvation is God’s choice alone and not man’s frees the believer’s conscience from wondering whether he has done enough good for God to choose him. Sola Gratia is what reminds us that humans are not able to earn or deserve salvation; salvation is “not from yourselves,” guarding against any boasting of our works.(Eph 2:8,9) The doctrine of sola gratia properly assigns all credit in the work of salvation to God. Not because of obligation or duty, but only because of his gracious character, God chose to send Jesus to do for us what we could never do for ourselves.” Regarding Sola Fide . . . “Sola fide declares that the means of justification is by faith alone, inviting sinners to rest in the meritorious work of Someone Else—namely Jesus Christ. “Faith alone” is in contrast to the Roman teaching of faith as only part of, rather than the whole of, what is necessary for justification.” Continuing Jung . . . “Reformation Christianity does not regard faith as a meritorious work of sinners but as an instrument by which they trust in the meritorious work of Christ and receive it as their own. J. I. Packer explains, “Faith is our act, but not our work; it is an instrument of reception without being a means of merit; it is the work in us of the Holy Spirit, who both evokes it and through it ingrafts us into Christ.” Regeneration is a monergistic work of the Holy Spirit, not a synergistic (cooperative) work between the Holy Spirit and the sinner. In sola fide, the very gospel is at stake, which is why it is said that the entire Reformation turned on this phrase. Luther went so far as to say that justification is the chief article of the church. R Scott Clark has put it in stark terms: “What did Jesus mean when he hung on the cross and said, “It is finished’? Did he mean ‘It is finished’? Or, “I’ve done my part, now you do yours’?” The battle cry the reformers was “It is finished.” She quotes R. Scott Clark: “What did Jesus mean when he hung on the cross and said, ‘It is finished’? Did he mean “It is finished’? Or, ‘I’ve done my part, now you do yours’? The battle cry of the reformers was “It is finished.” Soli Deo Gloria declares that God’s glory alone is the purpose of salvation.” I realize that we all have different perspectives, but sometimes I think the IJ discussion would just fade into the background if we better understood justification and that we can’t add to what Jesus has already done for us. That said, I believe what you’re doing is important. We have so much to be thankful for in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are complete in Him! Courage, friend! You are a minister of the new covenant! (2Cor 3:6). I deleted the last part since it was a personal note to my friend. Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 211 Registered: 1-2006 |
For those interested, here is a slightly edited second post. Since it follows the above post, on the same topic, I wanted it to be available here. Bob I’ve been doing a little more reading in Modern Reformation magazine, and want to share a bit more. Apparently SDAs were not the first to suggest the idea of standing before God without a Mediator. Regarding Christ as Mediator, R. Scott Clark recounts that . . . “At the Heidelberg Disputation (1518) . . . Luther argued that seeking unmediated access (trying to get around the Son) is a “theology of glory” and sub-Christian.” Think of this in the context of Ellen’s scenario in which believers stand before God without a Mediator. I’d like to learn more on this point, and if you have any sources it would make an interesting study. Clark continues . . . “A genuine theologian only approaches the Father through the Son and his cross. Suggestively and brilliantly, Luther spoke of seeing God’s “backside.” He was alluding to Exodus 33:32 where God did not allow Moses to see his glory but only his “back, but my face shall not be seen.” If we would find God, it will not be in glory, but in the mediator who became wretched for us carrying a cross up Golgotha.” Regardless of how we view the judgment, in terms of accountability to God, or response to testing, or a wild and wooly (and hopeless) session before God without a Mediator, I think most Christians would reject out of hand the concept that regenerate believers (believers from the heart, not just the head) will appear on their own merit before God, without the benefit of a Mediator, to determine their very salvation. This theology is a carry-over from Romanism—if Christ isn’t enough, we’ll sell you some indulgences. Again, a deficient view of justification and the mixing of what Christ has done for us vs. what Christ has done in us. I think that’s the real issue here. I believe that the wicked—but not regenerate/believing Christians, will indeed stand before God without a Mediator. In my view, DARCOM’s “pre-advent heavenly audit” or the “investigative judgment” scenario is in fact the only option for those who would propose to face God on their own merits. Perhaps it’s not fair to hold SDAs scholars to exactly what Ellen wrote. I wish the SDA church would release members from the burden of her “continuing authority.” Fortunately, believers do not enter into condemnation, John 5:24; Rom 8:1. I think that believers will indeed be “judged” though not to determine their salvation, but rather for “rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name . . .” Rev 11:8. I do not see this as a judgment to determine believer’s salvation, but of rewards. We may describe the judgment of the wicked as an investigative judgment, but I strenuously object to applying that process (with no Mediator) to those whose trust is in the Lord. Great Controversy 1888 482.3 states that regarding believers, “names are accepted, names rejected.” Does this mean what it says? There are issues of eternal security for believers here. Will believers be rejected depending on whether they could stop sinning? So it depends on us, partly? What if a regenerate believer really wants to go to heaven, but is still troubled by fallen sinful nature? Even a little bit? Are we talking about perfection in the flesh here, prior to the Lord’s return? Is the justification Jesus purchased for us limited, or are we truly justified/free (Acts 13:38,39) This whole discussion gets wearisome, and I don’t intend to chase it further. I must say that the Lord has poured peace into my life. If I must face God in the judgment, I would propose that Jesus’ sacrifice is enough, my guilt not withstanding. It really is a trade, a substitution. Praise God that we no longer live in fear. It’s frustrating when the Lord’s sacrifice is diminished in any way. I pray that God’s name will be glorified as you contend for the faith. Bob | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3809 Registered: 3-2004 |
When I study the Bible I discover some remarkable things. This afternoon I discovered Rev 17:8,..."the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast because he once was, now is not, and yet will come." What I am talking about is where it says those whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished....Wow, from the creation of the world there names are not in the book of life. Why does God need in IJ. He has known from creation. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6090 Registered: 12-2003 |
Interesting thoughts about the IJ, Bob. The great irony, of course, is that unlike your observation that the wicked will be judged and will stand before God without a mediator, Ellen gave the IJ a twist and said it was about NOT the lost but about those who professed Christ. It was THEY who would have to pass the judgment and maintain their perfection without a mediator. How blasphemous! Diana, great observation! Colleen |
