| Author | Message | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 93 Registered: 5-2007 |
The Sabbaths that I still have to attend SDA church(which thankfully are down to no more than every other one at this time) I keep hearing this "safe to save" gobbldygook in Sababth school and in sermons. Looks like a spruced up version of the IJ to me and that the SDAs are still in the bondage of perfectionism. I keep hearing that the IJ is for the benefit of "unfallen beings" on other planets so they know that it was ok for God to save us. Doesn't unfallen by definition mean that they would trust God 100% and wouldn't question why God saved us? Also WHERE does this idea of "unfallen beings" on other planets come from? The Bible seems to be silent regarding life on other planets or any unfallen created beings other than unfallen Angels. This sounds like a 100% pure Ellenism to me. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2007 |
I'm not sure but it probably has something to do with passing the loyalty test by accepting the Sabbath. Or maybe you're safe to save only if you're baptized into the SDA church.Or maybe only those who have perfected their character are safe to save. Ask Ellen, I think she's on Jupiter with 'good old Enoch' | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 96 Registered: 5-2007 |
Oh yeah, the "Tall People on Jupiter" vision that was done primarily to get $$$$ from Joseph Bates. Jupiter is slushy gas at extremely high atmospheric pressure that would crush lead. Not to mention that there is no solid ground for those "Tall Majestic people" to stand on. Maybe they're on Ganymede or Europa? LOL | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5923 Registered: 12-2003  |
Reb, the "safe to save" idea is one Graham Maxwell at Loma Linda popularized. It is related to his non-forensic view of atonement that claims God is a forgiving God and didn't need Jesus to die in order to forgive our sins. He says God is interested in our being His friends, that we accept His friendship and become His loyal friends. Our salvation, then is dependent upon our desiring to be with Him in heaven and being willing to be loyal to Him. We are "safe to save" if we want to be there (God would never take someone to heaven against his will), and we are "safe to save" if we are committed to loyalty and can be trusted not to rebel in the future. The entire notion is derived from the idea that salvation is about God's love and our grateful response to His love, not about Jesus' blood. Very good observations, BTW, about the Bible making no mention of unfallen universes. This idea IS an Ellenism. Romans 8 clearly says the creation is groaning as in childbirth, waiting for the sons of God to be glorified so it (creation itself) can be released to its bondage to decay. Sin has affected not just humanity but creation itself. Col. 1:19-20 says that God reconciled all things to Himself through Jesus' blood of the cross, whether things in heaven or things on earth. Creation is fallen and is in bondage to decay. It will be redeemed when Jesus creates a new heaven and a new earth. Colleen | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2007  |
The following verse is my favorite that relates to the topic of unfallen people on other planets: Rom. 8:22 KJV: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. As colleen stated above, "all Creation is fallen and is in bondage to decay." By the way, this is another clear contridiction with scripture. See quote below: Ellen G. White, The Desire of Ages, p.9: "Our little world, under the curse of sin the one dark blot in His glorious creation." Phil (Message edited by philharris on May 29, 2007) | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 98 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hmmmm but the Bible says the blood of Christ is what saves us and nothing but the blood of Christ. Aren't Romans and Colossians two of the New Testament books Adventists seem to ignore the most? Seems like they give the Old Testament much more weight. Funny thing looking back on all this I came from a non Christian background and was ignorant of the New Testament and the Gospel when I decided to become an SDA to make my wife happy 15 years ago. I had studied and was somewhat knoweldgeable about Judaism and actually remembered likeing at first the SDA emphasis on the OT and Jewish Law. The only thing I didn't like at the time was soul sleep and the Sunday Law paranoia. But because the SDAs hung on to Judaism I thought they were the most correct at the time. This was 15 years ago and how wrong I was at the time. Looking back on it my ignorance of Christianity, the New Testament and the Gospels at the time made me a prime candidate to be hoodwinked by the SDAs. I never really started studying the New Testament until I began questioning Advenstism over a year ago and boy did I ever find how the New Testmant blows Adventism right out of the water. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2007 |
Reb, One facinating study is the book of Hebrews because Paul quotes extensivly from the Old Testament. When you do, look up all his quotes and then check out their context. When I did, I was overwelmed by how everything the New Testament teaches is already well covered in the Old. Your next discovery is how much the Old Testament "blows away" SDA theology. Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 795 Registered: 9-2006  |
I sometimes think my wife's an alien when I wake her up, she looks at me like I'm some kind of a bug or something. | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 113 Registered: 8-2005 |
You know, I am certain that the term "safe to save" is directly from the writings of EGW. However, when I do a search of her writings I get an error that the phrase cannot be found. It must be something that is strongly inferred in her writings but perhaps not explicitly stated. Odd what you are sure you know... InSearchOf | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1829 Registered: 10-2004  |
InSearchOf, You were right that the idea comes from EGW, but not the exact phrase:
And there are other quotes that say: "It would not be safe for such characters to enter heaven;"; "Obedience must be rendered to all God's commandments in this world before a soul will be chosen as a safe member of the kingdom of heaven, one of the royal children of God."; "it would not be safe to admit them into heaven;"; "it would not be safe to take them to heaven."; "He will not close the door of heaven against any one unless, for the safety of heaven, it is necessary to do so."; and "Christ is your example. If you fall short of following the example that he came to our world to give, God could not safely admit you into the heavenly courts." Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3713 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thank you Jeremy. You can always find the quote needed. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5944 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, I remember hearing many of these or similar quotes in past years, but now, reading them...they have a horrifying message. No wonder I felt hopeless and afraid! One of the things that stands out as I read the quotes above is the dates of the quotes from articles. All of them were from her later years. The idea that she "changed" and because gospel-centered is really a myth. She taught salvation by perfection all along. While some of her definitions and statements became more gospel-sounding, she still wrote things like these. "We are placed here on probation to see if we will prove worthy of eternal life"...?? If that's true, none of us will ever qualify. These quotes you share are really instructive to me. They help me see that I don't just have a warped memory, that I wasn't just "taught wrong". I truly was taught ADVENTISM. For Adventists to be able to say these kinds of statements can be woven into a "saved by grace" theology is disingenuous. Can you spell C-o-g-n-i-t-i-v-e D-i-s-s-o-n-a-n-c-e? Sigh. Praise God that He is faithful, that He calls us out of the quagmire, that He brings us to life in Him while we are dead in our sins, and rescues us from darkness, transferring us to the kingdom of His beloved Son!! Colleen | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 276 Registered: 11-2005 |
The whole thought that a mere human may actually be a threat to God is absolutely appalling. "Safe to save"--what a ridiculous phrase! Not only does the concept drive a huge amount of fear into people, but it's insulting to God. The fact that He has to hand-pick followers based off of fear that sin may happen again is just so upsetting! Once again, Ellen diminishes God's sovereignty. Grace | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 556 Registered: 6-2006  |
Grace, that was the same impression I got! Kind of like God standing at the "pearly gates" not quite being sure of who he can trust and who he can't. Almost like God just doesn't have a clue. It makes me wonder if Ellen White ever actually read the Bible. Leigh Anne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3714 Registered: 3-2004 |
I was going to write something not very nice and decided to praise God that we can trust Him and do not have to fear Him. We no longer have to fear anything EGW wrote. She is dead as are her writings. Thank you God. You are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2007 |
"Christ came to the world to counteract Satan's falsehood that God had made a law which men could not keep. Taking humanity upon Himself, He came to this earth, and by a life of obedience showed that God has not made a law that man cannot keep. He showed that it is possible for man perfectly to obey the law. Those who accept Christ as their Saviour, becoming partakers of His divine nature, are enabled to follow His example, living in obedience to every precept of the law. Through the merits of Christ, man is to show by his obedience that he could be trusted in heaven, that he would not rebel." (The Faith I Live By, page 114, paragraph 2.) This is the most damning of all. In fact,the Scriptures reveal that not one of God's people ever 'lived in obedience to every precept of the law.' (ie: the Apostle Paul - by his own testimony) Rom 7:21-23 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. (NIV) In fact Scripture reveals their failures then points to their FAITH IN GOD: Rom 7:24-25 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. (NIV) - a concept sorely lacking (in relationship to salvation) in her scribbles. It all goes back to me perfecting my character in order to be 'safe to save'. No true prophet of God would ever so blatently(spelling?) contradict the plain teaching of God! | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 169 Registered: 1-2006  |
Jonvil Thank you for the great comments just above. Maybe this would be a good place to share part of a letter to a friend. Here it is: A few years ago our ministerial students at the seminary at Andrews University were given this question on a survey: My acceptance in the final judgment will be based upon: a) my character b) the character which Christ has worked out within me c) forgiveness of sins. Sixty-six percent of our seminarians answered b ! * see end notes This was not the desired answer! These men are now our ministers. It would be hard to overstate the significance of this problem. This misunderstanding of the gospel is breathtaking. It points out the gulf between their thinking (which is based on extra-Biblical sources and leaves many without hope) and the Christian faith. We are truly fixated on the elementary things of the world, in which we must earn what we get. Jesus called it the sin of unbelief. Paul told those who suffered from it that Jesus is of no value to them (this sounds bad, eh?) For further reading on this problem, and Paul’s solution, see Galatians 5:2 read the whole chapter along with Philippians chapter 3 and especially verse 3 and verse 18; and Ephesians 2:8,9 Perhaps you’ve heard the often quoted sentiment “We do our best, and God makes up the rest.” This type of statement arises from Sinai covenant based theology! This leads us to think, like the ministerial students at the seminary, that it is our character (plus maybe some of God’s grace, if needed) that saves us. You can find striking parallels to this theology in the writings of Ellen White. Without wasting your time, here are three actual quotations from our prophet that summarize Sinai based theology: The difference is obvious. “When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man’s best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit.” This teaches that Christ’s merit (or righteousness) is added to our obedience to make up the deficiency. “Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. . . A noble character is earned through the merits and grace of Christ. It is formed by hard, stern battle with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected.” This teaches that it’s not easy to attain perfection, but you can earn a noble character through Christ’s help. “Let no one say, I cannot remedy my defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you cannot overcome. The real difficulty arises from the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God.” This teaches that if you fail to remedy defects in your character 1) it’s your fault, and 2) and you will fail to obtain everlasting life. If this is true, it’s too bad for the saints in Hebrews 11—they’re lost. Approximately 15 times, the same author made statements along the lines that Jesus died to give us a second chance to keep the law perfectly and that time is running short and that probation is soon to close and that, well, we better get on with living perfectly before it’s too late and we are eternally lost. The Christian knows nothing of such things, but is instead forgiven unto salvation! Fortunately, God does not mix his steel with our clay! It is by grace alone, through faith alone, that we are saved, not by works! Our good behavior, good deeds, etc, do not contribute to our salvation, do not make us worthy of salvation, nor are they mixed with Christ’s merits in some sort of an investigative judgment! Our good character does not earn us salvation, nor does a good character qualify us for salvation! When the believing Christian accepts Jesus as Lord, the Holy Spirit is given as a deposit, guaranteeing his inheritance! The believer, living a Spirit led life, finds himself living a life pleasing to God, not as a condition of salvation, but as a natural outcome of living a Spirit led life. Even so, his good deeds, good behavior or good character do not contribute to his salvation. The best antidote for the three quotations above is found in Galatians 1. Read the entire chapter and you’ll be praising God! More below. Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 170 Registered: 1-2006 |
* What a question!! Answer b is the same case Jesus presented about the man wearing his own clothes to the Wedding Banquet (Matt 22) Everyone was invited, and people came, “both good and bad” (v.10). Their characters were not an issue in deciding their salvation! The question for them and for us is, have we by faith received the King’s robe, thereby identifying ourselves as guests of the King? Putting on the robe is a bit like wearing gang colors or a military uniform. It identifies us corporately. Jesus assured us that believers will not come into judgment (John 5:24) so Christians have nothing to fear. Jesus redeemed us from sin (Matthew 1:21, Galatians 4:4-5 and Hebrews 2:14-17). Yet, we are sinners, and liars if we deny it—see 1 John 1:8!! At the moment of our salvation, when the Holy Spirit is given as a deposit guaranteeing our salvation, our characters are far from perfect. Same with the great saints of the Bible (see Hebrews 11) who at the end of their lives were still waiting to be made perfect!) Thank God that 1 John 1:9 follows 1 John 1:8!! While we wish for perfect characters right now, we look forward in faith to the day when Jesus will finally complete the good work He has begun in us (Phil 1:6). Meanwhile, from the moment we receive Jesus, and for our entire lives on this earth (and in the judgment, for those who insist!) our salvation is assured not by the character Christ is working out within us, but by the fact that we have by faith received Him as Lord and Saviour. Our fallen, sinful nature causes us to fail repeatedly. Despite our failings, we are complete in Christ (Col 2:10). Although we are enthralled with the beauty of Jesus’ character, He was born Holy (Luke 1:35); we were not. The correct answer would be anything that Christ only can provide, ie, forgiveness of sins, His grace, the deposit of His Spirit in our hearts guaranteeing our inheritance, etc. Our characters may certainly improve as we walk in the Spirit, but we are saved not by reference to our characters, but by reference to wearing Christ’s robe and being “in Him” corporately. Steeped in Sinai based theology, I initially answered b, too. What I read about the investigative judgment had confused me. I believed I was on probation until I could develop a perfect character and that I would eventually have to stand before God without Jesus as Mediator. I assumed these teachings were Biblical, but they’re not. Bob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5949 Registered: 12-2003 |
Very true, JonVil. Well said. Colleen | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 285 Registered: 11-2005 |
In my little "praise and worship" time this morning, the song "Mighty to Save" came to mind, by Hillsong, and immediately I thought of this thread. As "formers", the second verse is something I think we can all relate to. Praise God that we can now focus on God being "mighty to save" rather than whether us humans are "safe to save"... Here are the lyrics to "Mighty to Save": Everyone needs compassion A love that's never failing Let mercy fall on me Everyone needs forgiveness A kindness of a Savior The hope of nations Chorus: Savior He can move the mountains My God is Mighty to save He is Mighty to save Forever Author of salvation He rose and conquered the grave Jesus conquered the grave So take me as You find me All my fears and failures Fill my life again I give my life to follow Everything I believe in Now I surrender Chorus Shine your light and let the whole world see We're singing for the glory of the risen King...Jesus Chorus (Message edited by snowboardingmom on June 01, 2007) |
