| Author | Message | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 101 Registered: 5-2007 |
My wife caught me on the Internet last night looking at Bro. Dirk Andersons Anti-EGW Website.(One of my faves). She wasn't too happy about it and basically told me to stop looking at it. I told her that she had asked me to catalogue EGWs errors and show her and I'm just doing the research. She said just stick with the Bible only. I told her that's the WHOLE point I'm making. She then told me "don't get lost". I assured her I'm not lost, I believe in Jesus Christ(in fact MORE than I EVER did) and I still even, as a Seventh Day Baptist keep the Sabbath. She made a comment that my being traumatised by the Sunday Law teaching started this whole thing and why can't I just be "macho" and have faith. I tried to explain that was just the tip of the iceberg and there's a lot more wrong than that. Well she dropped the whole thing after about 5 minutes. I stood my ground(lovingly) through the whole thing. I am not going to "wiener out" or "waffle" on this. I am going to act with authority and stand on my principles. I CANNOT go back to believing in Adventist doctrine, I was SO traumatised by it, especially the Sunday Laws and IJ. When I believed in Adventist doctrine I remember living in daily terror of the SUnday Laws to the point where I would pray that God let me die before it happened. I also used to live in such fear of the IJ every night before I went to bed I used to wonder if I had forgotten about or was ignorant of any sins thus not confessing them and if I died in my sleep would I be lost forever? It was truly HORRIBLE for me being an Adventist, it was like living in Soviet Russia or Red China. I just CAN'T go back to that. | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 556 Registered: 3-2001 |
Reb, Hopefully you won't take offense to this, but when you said:
Her response seems kind of odd. I could see that response if you were loooking at porn or otherwise violating your marriage covenant, but you weren't. I got the image of a person who has a difficulty owning his own space. Does your wife really believe that it is her job to monitor your relationship with God? You have made several references to things she has said in reference to your new found revelations. It just seems like a very dysfunctional relationship. I'm wondering if the fear you mentioned in relationship to your feelings about the church also translates into your relationship with your wife. This is just an observation. I don't have the gift of words that others have on this forum, so hopefully you won't take offense. Its just something I am saying in love. Doug | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 103 Registered: 5-2007 |
Doug, my wife and I have a great relationship and I love her very much and I know she loves me. Remember, she is a conservative, lifelong Adventist and what she is doing is out of love. She is truly concerned for my salvation because she loves me. My marriage is not dysfunctional at all. And I also have mentioned the situation regarding her reaction to my newfound "revelations" is improving. SHe is beginning to see that I am doing what I am being convicted to do. Remember that Adventists really believe they are the only true Church and everyone else, including a Sabbathkeeping Seventh Day Baptist such as myself are "lost". She truly loves me and is doing this out of love, based on what she knows. The only fear I have is that my leaving the SDA church will break her heart as I truly love her also. I am not offended by your post, Doug, but I just wanted to clarify what the situation is. Remember how conservative Adventists think and believe. Again it is out of love for me she is "monitoring" my relationship with God. I understand that. (Message edited by Reb on May 30, 2007) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3707 Registered: 3-2004  |
Reb, A prayer for you and your wife. Father in Heaven, You are the I AM, the Alpha and Omega and have many other wondrous names. Yet, because of Jesus we can come into your presence and call you Father. I am asking that you be with Reb and his wife at this time. May he hold fast to you and in love tell his wife what ever you put in his mouth. Soften his wife's heart, that she too will want to follow Jesus where ever He leads. I know you keep your promises and I know you are working on this at this very moment. Thank you so much for your promise to be with us until the end of the world. As always, God, You are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 104 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks, Diana. That was a beautiful prayer. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 941 Registered: 8-2004  |
Hang in there Reb! Jesus did not bring you this far to drop you. I'm praying for you and your wife. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5934 Registered: 12-2003  |
Reb, when I was in college a friend of mine introduced me to Joshua 1:9. In the KJV it said, "Fear not for their faces, for I am with you to deliver you, saith the Lord." In the NIV it says, "Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go." This assurance follows God's reminder not to forsake His word, the "Book of the Law" for Joshua. If he meditates on God's word and lives by it, then he need have no fear. This assurance from the Lord that, as you follow what is written in Scripture, you need have no fear means you have no need to fear even your wife's demands, displeasure, or threats. Stand strong in the Lord. The greatest demonstration of your manly strength (she asked you to be "macho") to her will be your confidence in Him without any fear of her. No intimidation toward her; no fear of her in your own heart. Trust Jesus. He will carry you and care for her. Colleen | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 557 Registered: 3-2001 |
Reb, Looking back at my response, I probably came on kind of harsh. Sometimes I can be "rough around the edges." I did not mean to question the strength of your relationship with your wife. I guess I was projecting how I would feel if the same thing had happened to me. I also realize that you cannot read tone into a posting on a forum, so I certainly could have misread. My prayer is that you would remain steadfast in your determination to follow the Lord wherever he leaves, and that He would give you the spirit of wisdom to do it in a loving way that glorifies Him to your wife. Doug | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 106 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks, Doug. Hey, it's all right. God Bless You. | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 116 Registered: 10-2006 |
I don't know is this is the right place to post this, but I've always thought it peculiar that more SDA's don't log in here with "truthful, love-based rebuttals, based in scripture of course. I assume that many are reading it with interest, but just don't have any answers to the issues and questions presented. Or, maybe they are asleep or blind because they worship the Adventist church and simply do not study the Word and rely on the Holy Spirit. If SDA's were really secure in their "truth", they would have faces lit-up with Christ's love and hearts big enough to walk with their formers through the legitimate issues raised here. I only see them painted into a corner, reclusive, or attacking back with compromising arguements definitely not based on scripture alone, the one-liner hate mail sent to Proclamation, the secrecy and misquoting by the White Estate and General Conference. How sad to have "the truth", but not share it with formers and outsiders. The truth doesn't hedge, lie, sidestep, paraphrase or push people into corners. Truth gives relief, settles issues, gives hope, defines our reality, points to God and all about Him. God says He is no respecter of persons, whether they claim possession of the "truth" or not. There are at least 500 adventists in Colorado and Kansas who know I've left Adventism 3 years now. I wrote a request to the Boulder SDA church, and to the Colorado conference to remove my name, which they did, but it took a year and multiple phone calls. I did get a formal reply from the conference office, but that was it. Why? Am I hurt? No, I'm relieved that not one call has come through. It was God's way of answering my prayer that He would give me time to process the anger of discovering the truth about the Adventist religion before coming in contact with too many of them. Thankfully, not one call - praise God! However, now that I am solid in my convictions, I wish some would call and ask the question: "what exactly made you decide to leave?". Now THAT would be exciting. After all this time, I am excited about helping anyone get through their SDA exit. Why don't they ASK the hard questions - because they are afraid of the answers, or at least in the dark as to what they believe or why. If they only could understand that it is in going through the painful process of seeking real, personal revelation through prayer and seeking Christ in His Word, that He will give answers and He will give TRUTH, He will give LIFE and now, not later. Note to all SDA's: Be ye not confused. The Adventist church is not, never was, never will be a substitute for a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you are living out your days through the tattered fabric of Adventism, you are not living. You need to set your religion aside - If you can't do that, then ask God to do it for you. Claim His promises out of the Bible, leave Ellen White and the SDA church out of it long enough to let God speak for Himself to you personally. Give Him a chance to show you how big He really is. Give Him a chance to show you real Truth. If nothing else, at least ask Him to confirm your adventist beliefs! At least do this, for His sake and yours. If you are not willing to do this, you must ask yourself if you are so secure in your beliefs that you no longer need to check with God to see if you are up to date with Him or not. Ask yourself where you meet with God the most. In church on Sabbath, in the Sabbath School Quarterly, in Ellen White books, watching ABN telecasts, going to SDA evangelistic campaigns? Or do you seek Him everyday in private prayer, seeking Him without reservation, without preconcieved ideas, without any assurance that you will EVER qualify for His salvation on any merit of your own. Shake yourself up people, SEEK, FIND, KNOW God on your own. THEN, go to the church of your choice as God leads you. Let Him choose your life paths as He points them out to you. We are not robots, preprogrammed with all the answers. The seeking, finding and knowing are LIFE. Get one in Him. Clear away all the bumper stickers from your mind and let God write His law and love on your heart. My fingers are getting tired...your turn River, talk to them. Steve Norris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5941 Registered: 12-2003 |
Steve, what a moving post. Thank you for speaking for all of us! Colleen | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 399 Registered: 12-2004 |
Doug, I can understand Reb's description to a tee. His wife's reaction is based largely on the fact that if she believes Adventism's dogma, he is putting his eternal life in danger. The other challenges that she probably foresees include the disunity of points of view, and loss of common community that both being members of the same church allows. These has been factors in my situation. The other concerns include what are people going to think, how does this affect how we raise our children, and what, or who will he leave next. While Reb is feeling the exhilaration of new found freedom, his wife will be sitting alone in church knowing all the chatter that is going on behind her back. These are a few of the thoughts that I know my wife has felt as we have been through this same scenario. My prayers are with you all, Randy | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 107 Registered: 5-2007 |
Yes, Randy, that's exactly what the deal is. Though I still do attend SDA church with her every other Sabbath and will continue to do so for the time being at least. I am sensitive to how this will effect her in the SDA community so I want to be discreet enough about this to minimise any pain it causes her. I have only come out to her and a select few "trusted" people that I am now basically no longer SDA and in my heart and belief have switched to be a Seventh Day Baptist. Funny thing the Sabbath is one of the most important things to Adventist and as a Seventh Day Baptist I still worship on the Sabbath(with a much healthier perspective and attitude then when I was an Adventist) and the SDAs would still think I'm "lost". Go figure. Guess it's because I'm no longer part of their "remnant". But I still worship on the Sabbath. That just goes to show there's a lot more to it than that with the SDAs (Message edited by Reb on May 30, 2007) | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 164 Registered: 1-2006  |
Stevendi I remember when I received a call from one of the pastors of our church after I sent a brief and kind letter of resignation. The pastor was a long-time friend, and he asked me how I was doing. I spoke about my walk with the Lord and how He had led me over the years to this point in my life, and then I asked him how how it was with him (between him and the Lord). I was astonished, but he wavered! In that moment I knew that he also wanted to be free in the Lord. But he quickly changed the topic. I will always pray for him. Bob | ||
| Godssonjp Registered user Username: Godssonjp Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2007 |
Hello Reb, I'm curious to know how you feel about the Sabbath. You mentioned numerous times that you still worship on the Sabbath. Not that I have a problem with anyone worshipping on the seventh day of the week or any day for that matter, however, the fact that you use the word "Sabbath" to refer to the seventh day of the week makes me feel, at least in my opinion, that you still hold Saturday as being more "special" than the rest of the days. As if calling the seventh day "Saturday" instead of "the Sabbath" would diminish it's importance or make it different than the others. Although you may not feel this way, to me it seems as though you still regard the day itself as being different than the others. After I understood that the seventh day isn't any more holy or special than the other days of the week, giving it the title of "the Sabbath" made little sense to me. Considering that Jesus is my Sabbath rest, giving that title to a day or anyone else diminished what "Sabbath" means to me. My mother transitioned out of Adventism before I did and now attends worship services on Sunday. However, she believes that God intended for us to have time set aside for physical rest. So, she chooses not to work Friday nights or Saturdays. (She's been doing this for years) Her preference. That way she knows she gets the rest she needs. (She works two jobs, one during the day and one at night on third shift, alternating weekends) I mentioned this because whatever we choose to do on Saturday or the seventh day, whether it be going to church, cleaning the house, or just sleeping in, it's still just another day that the Lord has made. We will rejoice and be glad in it. For me, every day is Sabbath. Sunday thru Saturday all the same to me. I hope this makes sense. I'm not trying to be offensive. I'm not always good with words. If someone else can kind of understand what I'm saying please feel free to expand. In Love, Godssonjp | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 109 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am not offended, Godssonjp. I have a Seventh Day Baptist view of the Sabbath rather than the SDA view of it. I do see it as one of the 10 commandments and I worship on that day out of love for God. I do not, however, see worhshipping on Sunday as the "mark of the beast" as SDAs do, nor do I see the Sabbath as the "Seal of God" as SDAs do. I believe as the Bible says that the Holy Spirit is the Seal of God. I do not judge others for worshipping on Sunday, I do not see that as wrong. Jesus Christ ONLY is our salvation, not a day of the week. However, for me I am convicted that Saturday is the preferred day of worship for me and remember what Paul said in Rom 14 goes both ways. If you are convicted in your heart to worship on Sunday(or every day for that matter) that is good. Christ is what's important. Also, this was my ONLY WAY out of the SDA church. My wife is a hardcore SDA and would NEVER accept me going to a "Sunday" church and I'm just not smart enough to win a debate with her about Sababth vs. Sunday, the Sabbath is so ingrained in her. At least she has come to accept my going to the Seventh Day Baptist church and I am happy there. I was suffering so badly in the SDA church I couldn't wait for the time(that might very well never come) that my wife would accept my going to a "Sunday" church. If y'all want to go to church on Sunday, great I see nothing wrong with it. Please understand, that given my home situation, this was my ONLY way out of the SDA church, and it is working, praise God! Again, I'm just not smart enough to win a debate with my wife over the Sabbath vs. Sunday issue so it is best for me to stick with the Sabbath at this point. At least the Seventh Day Baptists have a much healthier perspective on it and have the Gospel. I can live with that. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 804 Registered: 9-2006  |
Reb, I can’t pretend to understand what you face with your wife believing one thing and you having come to change your mind to an extent. I am a little confused over the fact that you drive, what was it 40 or 50 miles to attend a Seventh Day Baptist church? There again I know nothing of the Seventh Day Baptist church so maybe I shouldn’t be speaking to you at all, I certainly don’t want to be an offense to you but an encouragement in your walk with the Lord and would not want to say anything to discourage you in any way. Having put that out front just so you know I mean no offense, you confuse me too. To the Adventist and coming from their perspective, the Sabbath is a huge thing with them and it is going to be a huge issue with your wife most likely. Now I am just trying to put myself in her shoes. You don’t any longer believe in the necessity of Sabbath worship yet you are driving some distance to worship on the Sabbath and I am wondering just what kind of message your very own action is sending to your wife. In your post number 33 you talked about concern for scandal in the Indonesian Community, that too confuses me because I don’t understand what race has to do with it or with Christianity. Now your concern and love for your wife I do very well understand having been married for 45 years to the same woman, your concern for what this might do to her on leaving the Adventist church where her roots are, her friends are and possibly even relatives since you mentioned that it is an Indonesian Community, but certainly in the Adventist community many relatives attend the same church since Adventism has been passed down from generation to generation and it is a closed community in itself. I would be concerned too so we do have some level ground for conversation, marriage and love for the wife of ones youth being that level ground and it is on that ground where I can meet with you in understanding regardless of other issues. Now I will finally get around to what I would wish to speak about to you as well as the rest of the folks here who might be interested. I am going to say it with just one word “SPIRITUAL LEADERSHIP”. Now I am probably going to bring the ladies down on my head, God help us all, but the Bible does seem to teach that the male has the responsibility for spiritual leadership in the home (head covered with washtub) not that they always accept that role properly and some not at all, which many times rolls that burden over onto the wife and God help that man when or if he ever assumes his proper role as spiritual leader once again because he better have his stuff together, know his Bible and having great understanding and commitment. Many men assume this roll as having authority to rule their wives every action and that is an over riding spirit and as far as I am concerned is not spiritual leadership, it is a form of slavery even though he may be convinced that he is following God in such action. My take on it is that true spiritual leadership is by and through the spirit of God and not the spirit of man, it has nothing to do with race or creed or customs, God is not a racist. Walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh nor the pride of this life. The cock of the walk may very well end up roosting in shame by the time it’s all said and done. Corinthians I 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Now what he is saying here the way I understand it is that in order to be the spiritual leader one MUST follow the spiritual hierarchy, first Christ, then the man not first man then the woman, spiritual leadership has to do with spiritual things and we must worship in spirit and in truth. Therefore in order for the man to assume his proper spiritual leadership in the home he must meet spiritual conditions and seek God first, Christ is the captain not general Joe. Therefore under the direct leadership of Christ is the man properly able to lead in spirit and in truth, all this other stuff is just baggage and the man cannot afford to be weighted down with baggage, it is just too serious for such things because when you assume spiritual leadership you assume responsibility for her spiritual welfare wouldn’t you say? So if I am right one had then better take that to heart and seek God first and foremost and in all earnestness and gravity, no room for laziness and lackadaisical tomfoolery here. It is just flat study to show yourself approved a workman unto God laced liberally with much prayer and supplication. Oh me, ouch, that’s gonna leave a mark. Now I am finally going to try to get to the nut of what I want to say here today, you, me, or anybody else are going to have to seek God with a made up mind and then do what the word and the Holy Spirit of God tells you in order to meet with good success and outcome in these things. It is my conviction that if one is bible right and God right then he will protect you, keep you and your spouse as well as the little ones and put your house in order as you assume the proper role of spiritual leader that he intended from the foundation of the get go. Under Christ direct leadership it will fall into line providing you are not married to a rebellious woman who is rebellious to Christ and you and in that case good luck. Now having been stupid enough to say all that I might as well say the rest, the macho crap don’t cut it with me, that is just adrenalin male hormone driven horse manure. I have had two woman Pastors in my 36 years since the Lord reached down for this old alcoholic druggy in a mighty miracle of Gods love and mercy, and it was one of those women that nurtured me in the things of the Lord, took my endless phone calls and answered my stupid question and talked to me and ministered to me for hours on end and instilled and encouraged me to take the spiritual leadership role the proper way and the other woman Pastor finished the job of planting my feet firmly on solid bible spirit filled ground that Adventism couldn’t touch nor any other ism although they all have taken their best shot and I would not trade either of those women for any male Pastor on Gods green earth. So to my way of thinking Pastor ship has not much to do with the role of proper male spiritual leadership in the home, one of those woman Pastors has a husband and although she is a spiritual leader she still falls under the spiritual leadership of her husband under Christ. Don’t ask me how this role reversal works, it just does because God honors them in how they go about it knowing their proper places in Christ. God knew who to place me with in order to overcome the great obstacles in my life, it was they that nurtured but it was his plan. There are women who surrender their lives to God and God uses them in a mighty way and they are exceeding blessed in their walk with him. I guess I threw that in to say this, I, in my intention have, in no way shape or form degraded Godly women in any manner as a “lesser light” so to speak so Colleen your bulb is still on, don’t worry about what they say. That’s sort of a joke that has nothing to do with today’s subject, if you don’t get it and really want too, read back issues of Proclamation. I am just trying to say that there is a spiritual hierarchy that in no way degrades a woman nor lessens her or cheapens her the least bit. With respect to all. River | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 110 Registered: 5-2007 |
You make some good points, River. I drive 40-50 miles to the nearest Seventh Day Baptist Church on Sabbath because I want to. It's ok to worship on the Sabbath as much as it is on Sunday and Saturday is my preferred day. Plus, at least my wife is somewhat accepting this and she would NEVER accept my going to a Sunday church and as I said I'm just not smart enough to win a debate with her on that issue. It's working for me and I was so miserable in the SDA church that I am glad I found the Seventh Day Baptist church. It may not be a viable option for many of you but it works for me. There are others who leave the SDA and still go to another Sabbath keeping church. Dirk Anderson, who has that cool website is Church of God 7th Day I think(not an option for me because they belive in soul sleep like the SDAs do). The important thing is to find a church where the Gospel is preached and I have found this in the Seventh Day Baptist. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1576 Registered: 7-2003 |
River, there are great words of wisdom in your post and I wish many more men understood what you just described. THEN it would not be a 'burden' for the 'hierarchy'. While I don't understand why the wife has to understand Reb's conviction about going to church when and where he wants, I get that he honors his wife's support. What I struggle with, however, is that support appears conditional on his doing what she likes. The one point I do disagree with River on is that God will work all things out. The wife may leave if she is not committed to the marriage or in following God outside her box of 'right'. She's got freewill regardless of what God may want her to do. Scripture tells us in that case to let the unbelieving spouse leave and to live in peace. It doesn't appear we are ever to put marriage above following God. But please don't hear that as condemnation for your choices, Reb. God has to lead you and your only real job is to follow where God leads. The question is will you follow God if it goes against what your wife wants? I speak as someone who has made tough choices and reaped the negative consequences when the answer was no. That's why I know that sometimes God does not work it all out...at least not as we might envision it being worked out. I know God hates divorce, but God still expects to be first, even in our relationships. When you trust your spouse is following God, following that leadership is easy. But if your 'god' only operates within the adventist system (for example), are you really following God when he can only lead you where you think he should? I can't answer those questions for anyone. I didn't like the answer for myself, so there truly is no judgment here. Just thoughtful questions. | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 558 Registered: 3-2001 |
Reb, Thanks for being so open about where you are spiritually and about the issues at home. I do have a question for clarification. You said:
So by saying this are you saying that you believe that the commandments are (or are not) binding on Christians today. If you believe that this is a command from God, then how do you reconcile saying, "If y'all want to go to church on Sunday, great I see nothing wrong with it." Its quite possible that its just hard for me to see this issue without my SDA blinders. Can you help enlighten me (us) a little more on the SDA Baptist's teachings/understandings of the covenants? I thought it was curious that when you talked about going on vacation that it was important to you that you find a 7th Day Baptist congregation. Also, the fact that 7th Day Baptist include "7th Day" in their title would seem to indicate that the Sabbath is a pretty central issue in their theology. Could you personally (i.e. where you are at spiritually right now) go to a church that worshipped on Sunday (or any other day)? It just seems as though there must be something foundational about their beliefs that would cause you to drive 40 miles one way to attend church or to limit yourself to worshipping with them. I'm not judging your experience. More than anything else, I just want to understand. Thanks. Doug (Message edited by Doug222 on May 31, 2007) |
