| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5918 Registered: 12-2003  |
You're right, Jeremy. "Ceasing to exist" and "physical death" are different. Thanks for clarifying. I learned that Jesus (all of Him) ceased to exist, and that if He hadn't risen from the dead, part of God would have ceased to exist. That is wrong. Thanks, Jeremy! Colleen | ||
| Ikilgore Registered user Username: Ikilgore Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2006 |
Hey guys, This website hit it home for me on the trinity deal: http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/ch14.html I thought it was really insightful. I am not totally sold on all points made on this forum post, but then I am still learning. The learning process is really interesting because once you take off the "Ellen Shades" you see things in a different light. I really am looking forward to studying more on this subject. Isaiah | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2007 |
Good Morning, This is Jim02 MaryRoses wrote: There are two extremes (as I see it) in understanding the Trinity. Both extremes fall into error. Modality - The idea that there is only one God, one person, who has three roles or functions. The other end of the spectrum is Trithieism, three distinct persons, who are separately and individually God, or more correctly gods. I agree with this assesment. My position is: Basic Human Understanding. I ask myself this question. Does God expect the average man to research volumes and reams of text to grasp a basic tennant of faith? This just does not seem practical and it defies common sense. I believe that when a matter requires excessive debate to establish a premise, then something is off track or out of balance. Another area of concerne is my impression that there is a tendancy to villify SDA. Folks, you are talking against family here. The SDA as an institutution may have it's own bag of errors to deal with. But I observe that this growth aspect of discovery and adjustments is common to virtually ALL faiths in all of history. Everyone is fallible. But the SDA is still my family even though I have separted from them. I believe there is a bent on this forum to make Every single thought that can be considered SDA as heresy , hostile and insanely in error. This is not how we treat family. I feel like I am in the middle of a messy divorce. I do not like it. The SDA are sincere people. They try harder than anyone I know. The suffer and deny themselves. That does not make them evil or hateful.If they are trapped in error. fault finding is not the way to rescue them , nor is overcomplicating truths. Nothing is as simple as I want it to be. But God spoke about the simplicity of children. That stands for something. If Love is the key. Blowing people away with confusion is not the path to it. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2007 |
No matter how I percieve God. It is incomplete and limited by my human capacity. It is undefinable beyond the revealed scriptures. So undefineable that no matter how I could attempt to frame it, it would be controversial. I leave it, (for myself at least) as a mystery belonging to God. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 85 Registered: 5-2007 |
Good points, Jim. I love the SDA people and you are right, they are "family". They are sincere and try harder, God bless 'em and they are trapped in error but they are not evil or hateful. I just want peace with the SDAs and for them to accept me as I am now. Yes, they think I am "lost" but it is out of love they think that rather than maliciousness. They are so trapped in this idea that they are the "remnant". Even though I still, as a Seventh Day Baptist, worship on Sabbath, they think I am wrong because I have given up EGW and the SDA doctrines. But again I see this as being out of love, not anything malicious. I am still on the books of the SDA church even though spritually and mentally I have transitioned to the Seventh Day Baptist and attend there probably as or more regularly than I do the SDA. I have no doubt that at some point more people at the SDA church other than my wife and some trusted friends will know about this but I hope that peace and love will prevail. I just want to be free to worship God the way my conscience convicts me, and I want for them the same. Isn't this what America is all about? | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thank You Reb. Yes , America does stand for freedom. In all my effort to reach out in this forum. I hope no one is offended. I am trying to maintain balance as I discover. I may have made mistakes along the way. But , before I am ready to toss out everything I know. I insist that logic must be a constant and common sense prevail. I do nothing on a whim, nor by way of a flood of confusion. A truth is usually discovered in simplicity. Simplicity may take time. But you get there if God wants you to know a truth. In all of this. If Love and Compassion is not right out there in front like beacon. Then I will not follow. | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 212 Registered: 4-2002  |
It amuses me to read of the Adventist paranoia of Catholics, such as we have seen on the forum from time to time recently. Have you ever heard of Centura Health, the largest hospital and health care system in Colorado? Check out who it's owned by. I wouldn't want to destroy your surprise. i know it's a bit off topic, but kind of an interesting diversion! (Message edited by thomas1 on May 29, 2007) | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 88 Registered: 5-2007 |
Just like modern day Sadducees. And it is very sad, you see! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5919 Registered: 12-2003 |
I've been pondering our disucssion here, and I believe that the bottom line for us is not primarily "pure doctrine", although Truth will yield right doctrine. The purpose of thinking about these things, ultimately, is our humble submission to Jesus. Lori, you stated earlier that you know that you experience Jesus differently than you did as an Adventist, but you weren't sure you understood all this discussion about the Trinity. That experience with Jesus is what He does for us. Even when we are confused and deceived, He breaks through and reveals Himself—and we suddenlty realize that He is different than we thought. This is the point where the "rubber meets the road". God—the Triune God of Reality—asks us to be submissive to Jesus. He asks us lay all our presuppositions before Him and allow Him to teach us the truth about Him. I have found that praying specifically for God to teach me the truth often includes His direction for me to lay down my resistance, discomfort, and intellectual disputing and accept what He reveals through His word. I believe that in my processing out of Adventism, there have been four "watershed" realizations (punctuated by many smaller ones as well). These insights which God helped me to know as I prayed and studied—in the order I understood them— were these: 1. Jesus kept the requirements for the new covenant with the Father. Being in the New Covenant is not an agreement between God and me as was the Sinai covenant with Israel. Jesus represents me to the Father, and He keeps the covenant. I enter on Christ's merits alone. I am kept there my Christ's merits alone. 2. Ellen White was NOT just "uninspired" or "not a prophet". She was a false prophet in the full biblical sense of the word. 3. Humans have a spirit, not just breath. This spirit is where we know Jesus , and it is what comes alive when the Holy Spirit indwells us when we place our trust in Jesus. This understanding changed my perception of the nature of sin, the nature of man, the nature of Jesus, and the nature of salvation. 4. Jesus is 100% God (not merely 1/3 of the Godhead), and He was always equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. This realization changed the way I see the Trinity; we do not worship "three beings", a "heavenly trio", or "the great Worthies in heaven". We worship ONE GOD expressed in three persons. The impact of this realization has clarified that Jesus is, indeed, more powerful and less pitiable than I thought Him to be. God did rescue us HIMSELF and save us from death. The implications of the Trinity being One, not individuals separate from each other, explains why the Jesus I knew as an Adventist seemed different from and less than the Father. It explains how I could have thought Satan had a legitimate claim against Jesus. Further, this realization confirms that Adventism did not spring from the true apostolic church but sprang from the heresy of Arianism. So why is this important? Bottom line, these new understandings confirm that my SOLE responsibility in my life is to bow before the Lord Jesus in true submission and ask that He teach me His truth and His will. These theological fine points are not important in themselves; they are significant in that the Lord Jesus teaches us the truth about Himself, and He asks us to humbly stand before him, opening our tight grip on our doctrines and "isms" and allowing Him to continue to reveal Himself. God is faithful to complete what He begins in us. We do not need to fear what He will teach us if we are submitting our minds and hearts to Him. When we are submissive to Him, He shapes our doctrines. When our doctrines shape our understanding of Him, we are in danger of error. Jesus has given us two amazing things: Himself and His word. He speaks to us through His word by His Spirit when we humble ourselves before Him and ask for His truth. We do not need to fear what God might teach us—even if we learn we embraced heresy in our ignorance. God is gracious, and the Lord Jesus makes Himself real to us, showing us clearly and without shaming us that He is not limited by our doctrines. Further, He will not allow us to be limited by our doctrinal understandings, either—if we are submitted to Him. His word is truth; He Himself is Truth. The unspeakable mystery is that the Lord Jesus reveals Himself and His eternal truth to us, gradually, little-by-little, as we stand before Him willing to be shaped by Him. Jesus is the reason we discuss doctrine—and apart from knowing Him and allowing Him to shape us, doctrinal debates are fruitless. Doctrine must flow from Jesus instead of our understanding of Jesus flowing from doctrine. He is faithful. In Him we have the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:16). Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5920 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, I understand that feeling of being in a messy divorce. I felt that same feeling as I left Adventism. In fact, that metaphor is one I've heard from many people in this process. It is unspeakably painful to realize that Jesus asks us for our COMPLETE loyalty, for our sole commitment. He asks us to know Him and to be loyal to Him even at the risk of our families' not understanding. Leaving Adventism was the most painful thing I have ever done. It was even more life-altering and relationship-severing than was my divorce. Without doubt, knowing Jesus and realizing the truth about where we were is completely disruptive and painful. In my experience, I have never wanted to villify Adventism. I have not tried to find fault with it to justify my leaving. On the contrary, what has happened is that as I have left and prayed to know God's will and to learn truth, I have ended up struggling with senses of confusion as I came to know Jesus yet couldn't mesh my experience with my theological understandings. Jesus is faithful, though—and as painful as it is, He Himself calls us to be willing to allow Him to be our only identity. He asks us to be willing to know the truth and to be willing to surrender everything we love for His sake. He gives us back ourselves when we are willing to give up all for Him—but the self He gives back is new: alive, at peace, filled with the authority of His Spirit. Indeed, He makes all things new! Nevertheless, it is like a death or a divorce to be willing to follow Jesus out of the comfortable womb of our Adventist past. He replaces all we lose with blessings and people and meaning and life—but we cannot experience this redemption unless we are willing to walk through the fire. Jesus is faithful. He will not allow your heart to be shattered. This process reminds me of what Jesus said: he who falls on the Rock will be broken, but he on whom the Rock falls will be crushed. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 792 Registered: 9-2006  |
I really haven’t seen any body “villafy the SDA” people on here, however Christian doctrine is not going to be able to agree with SDA doctrine, I have SDA friends myself, about 15 or 20 of them and I’m still friends with them. I don’t “villafy” them nor have I seen anyone else with such a tendency, but I don’t see anybody much on here rushing back out to jump back in with them either. This is not about America, there are people on here from all over the world, I haven’t heard of anybody trying to stop them (SDA) at the church door’s. Talk to me about freedom and I will tell you I have served my country at a time when no bugle blew from the citizenry and they had the audacity to make fun of the uniform I wore and I am still willing to pick up my rifle if necessary and go to combat for the freedom to worship as they please. Please tell me what it is like to have tanks fire over you head, the roar of shell going over your head what sound like a fifty gallon garbage can every three minutes all night long while you try to get a few minutes fitful sleep on the hard ground, laying out in the booneys for days and weeks at a time with no bath eating C-Rats till you barff, what it’s like to hump with 70 lbs of gear until the blood runs down your socks and then you can talk to me about America and freedom. This forum is more about how to deal with false doctrine and the process of exiting from it and there’s people on here that still have to live with spouses, fathers, mother, children aunts and uncles and friends, many who suffer untold days from family who still try to alienate and give them a hard time about their Christianity. You have problems with family, need prayer, support, and encouragement? There are people that will jump in here and advise, pray with you, for you, offer support, consolation, we have bad days, good days, and in between days. Sure it gets a little heated from time to time, each person gives his/her position and we learn from one another by that, the privilege of seeing some issue from several different views is invaluable unless all the view you want to see is your own. It all helps to cope with the false doctrine of Adventism. I cope with it every day and I like a place where I can discuss it, it brings relief to air about it every once in awhile. I may call somebody on a point but that doesn’t mean I don’t love them or that I disrespect them one iota or if they call me on a point I don’t all of a sudden feel unloved and like I got to go out and eat worms or something. And yes, there are people on here who have suffered terribly from the bad fruits of Adventism, it’s not like theres good fruits just rolling out of that tree and I could give you 100 good examples by cutting and pasting a dab but it would overload the limits of this forum and cause Richards union to peel. Now we wouldn’t want Richard pulling his hair out would we? Sincerity doesn’t mean right, if it does I’m always right. Well, not about the possum and grits. Even my Adventist friends know I’m not serious about that although they make sure they eat before they get here, probably a little niggling doubt plagues them that I just might throw a possum on the table. It does save on my grocery bill when they come here though, I see a big motor home pull up out front and I know it’s one of my Adventist friends whose done brought his stove and grub with him and that’s good cause I like meat on the table, a turkey that aint turkey just don’t cut it, my turkey has give a gobble or two one time in its life afore somebody cut his gobbler off and sent him to Safeway. Now that’s my input for today (relief from everybody I’m sure). It’s probably everybody’s dream that I forget how to type, if I don’t, blame it on Ramone or Steve or anybody handy. One more thing before I run out of steam. I thank God for this forum and everybody on it! My dream is to be able to attend F.A.F week end and personally shake hands with each and every one of you, I just know I will come away leaving a friend behind. Just a view from the River. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5928 Registered: 12-2003 |
We always enjoy your River view, our friend! Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 940 Registered: 8-2004  |
I've been hearing the charge that former Adventists 'vilify' or are otherwise nasty to Adventists for several years now. Yet like River I've seen very little of it. I wonder how much of the felt vilification is due to the SDA unwritten law that disagreement IS vilification? That conscientious conviction that disagrees with Adventism (especially in someone who used to be an SDA) is persecution? While there are Adventist that run the gamut from super conservative to card carrying liberal, and while there are plenty of 'discussion groups' within each of the groups across the spectrum, as an Adventist (and therefore as one of the 'likely safe to save' folks) you're expected to have a particular set of loyalties that keep you from arguing with other Adventists (at least those of your stripe). If you 'defend' the particular set of beliefs your group holds - even against SDAs of other (and therefore usually lesser) beliefs you are a hero. If you question your group you come under suspicion as one of the 'bright lights that will go out'. If you choose to move along the SDA spectrum toward being more liberal you're 'apostatizing'. If you move toward conservatism you're becoming fanatical (or in some circles simply more holy). No matter which way you move you are either seen as condemning others or falling under condemnation yourself. But that condemnation is understood to be the condemnation that comes from living 'the present truth'. If you question Adventism itself instead of just trying to slice its confusion a different way than the next guy you risk being labeled rebellious and are 'fighting conviction'. If you actually leave then you are assumed to have become a godless apostate who persecutes Adventists perhaps even sold out to the devil. Then if you actually open your mouth to share your new understandings, to rejoice in your newfound faith in Jesus this is often perceived as the persecution that SDAs expect. This being the case should not stop the mouths of concerned non-Adventist Christians or former Adventists. But it should perhaps give us even more of a reason to pray for wisdom from God to know when to speak, what to speak, when to keep silence and let our very lives speak, and to always speak the truth in love. PS. This is NOT to say that Adventism is never vilified, and not to say that former Adventists never speak out of judgmentalism, anger, or bitterness. It's just to say that Adventists (and many formers, before they recognize this part of their SDA training) tend to hold a double standard on what is vilifying persecution (anything spoken against Adventism) and what isn't(any defense of Adventism). | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3704 Registered: 3-2004  |
I know there has been all kinds of talk about what is said here. My opinion is, say what you need to say, whatever it is. The current SDA who reads here will see that there are all kinds of feelings and emotions one goes through as one leaves adventism. The important thing is that we are honest with God and with ourselves. When we are honest that way we can be honest with others. Just my opinion. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1825 Registered: 10-2004  |
Mary wrote: "It's just to say that Adventists (and many formers, before they recognize this part of their SDA training) tend to hold a double standard on what is vilifying persecution (anything spoken against Adventism) and what isn't(any defense of Adventism)." And I would add also, that there seems to be a double standard about what is vilification when it comes to Adventism compared to when it comes to other false cults such as Mormonism. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5937 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mary, what a well-explained post! I had never thought about this subject quite that clearly before, and you did a great job putting into words the unspoken assuptions that welter just under the consciouness in Adventists' minds. Goodness, you are right! And Jeremy, you are also correct that many do feel fine exposing cults such as Mormonism, but showing similar problems within the warp and woof of Adventism is not received kindly at all! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1826 Registered: 10-2004 |
I am realizing that Adventism is worse than Mormonism or JWs with regard to the Trinity. With the latter two groups, they are taught that their church's position is the true teaching and that it is is very important for them to believe the way they do. In other words, the Trinity is at least an important issue in those two groups, and when people come out of those groups they still realize that it is an important issue and they are willing to accept the historic Christian doctrine of the Trinity as taught by Scripture. Also, they are taught this doctrine by the Christian community as they come out, since the Christian community is aware that those groups do not teach the Trinity. However, in Adventism they do not teach that their view on the Trinity is an important issue, and in fact cannot do so, because they have changed their view somewhat from what they originally taught. In other words, because their "pioneers" (including their prophet, EGW) taught a different view (that Jesus had a beginning)--they cannot call that view heresy and, therefore, they must tolerate that view and cannot say that what you believe about the Trinity is an important issue. Early on in Adventism they taught that it was important what you believed, just like the JWs do, but since they altered their teaching they can no longer teach that it is important, for the reasons I already stated. Ironically, however, at the same time they do cling strongly to the heretical ideas they have been taught about Jesus/the Trinity--especially since these ideas come from their "continuing and authoritative source of truth"--EGW. So, the consequence for all of this, is that when people come out of Adventism, they still might retain the idea that it is not important what they believe about the Trinity--that it's something that can be up for debate, something that is a "mystery" that may be impossible to understand, that it just doesn't really matter what you believe about it, etc. Ironically, however (as I mentioned above about current Adventists) at the same time there is a strong "pull" for them to hold onto the heretical things they have been taught about Jesus/the Trinity, and for some it is hard to give those things up and embrace the true "faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints" (Jude 1:3 NIV). Also, unlike what I mentioned above for Mormonism and JWs, the Christian community does not know that Adventism does not teach the Trinity and they do not know that those coming out of Adventism need to be taught the doctrine. It all adds up to one big confusing mess, that makes me feel very sad and discouraged at times. The reality is that Adventism does not teach the historic doctrine of the Trinity that the Christian Church has taught from God's Word for the last 2,000 years. And the reality is that this is a not a doctrine that is "up for debate"--we can't come up with our own "version" or "understanding." We have to either accept or reject (we can't alter) "the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints" almost 2,000 years ago--which has been clearly laid out in the pages of God's Word and which has been defended against heretical encroachments, in the historic Christian creeds. The creeds were not any "new" teaching--they were only more minutely defined descriptions of what had always been taught from God's Word, in order to combat the heresies that were creeping in (in fact, that was the only reason they were needed!). When heresies come in that get technical and teach false doctrines that undermine the foundation of "the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints," these "technical heresies" must be combatted with "technical truth." Ironically, many people realize that it's not "up for debate" what we believe about the Gospel and the fact that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone--they would never say that it's ok to believe in salvation by works--and yet they think that it doesn't matter what you believe about the Trinity! This is very ironic considering that the Christian Church has historically put more importance on the Trinity, and it is many times the most important factor--the one "essential"--for many cult experts in determining whether or not a group is Christian. It is vitally important what we believe on this very foundational issue. One view (Adventism--and Mormonism!) teaches three gods united in a group called "the Godhead." The Christian view teaches only one living God (the most foundational truth of all of Scripture). The SDA view teaches that Jesus is merely one of three gods. The Christian view teaches that Jesus is the only true God! In reality, the Adventist view is infinitely apart from Christianity. They are not close at all, and have nothing in common. Jeremy P.S. I feel like I may not have worded some of this post that well, so I hope everyone can understand what I am trying to convey here. (Message edited by Jeremy on May 30, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 799 Registered: 9-2006 |
The truth about telling the truth about Adventism or as Dianna said "say what you have to say", the truth is that Adventism in general is ugly and the deeper you dig into it the uglier it gets, I do soften it up and it is still ugly, you ought to see the post that I do not post. Although I got to admit I have hit pretty hard at times as some one said "River has a wonderful gift with words if he would only turn it to better use. What he meant was "Turn it away from Adventism and E.G., IJ and so forth. Well I did look for something good but all I found was ugly, its like trying to dress a pig, you can put on lipstick and makeup but he still looks like a pig. I said "But Lord" one to many times and he spoke to me about plumb lines and things. I gathered from the experience you don't go pushing him about his word too much. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5942 Registered: 12-2003 |
So true, River. And Jeremy, I think you expressed that post very well. It is hard to explain how the Adventist view (or non-view, as the case may be) of the Trinity is different from Christianity's view, and why this difference is important. You are so right when you say that Adventists are not taught the Trinity when they leave--and furthermore, most Adventists themselves don't actually know what Adventism really teaches. They just know that the Father is BIG GOD, Jesus is little "God", and the Holy Spirit is tiny god. They don't know why Jesus seems smaller and less God-like and less powerful and prone to fail, and they don't know why the Holy Spirit seems more like a projection or a power source than He seems like God. They just know that's "how it seems". As you say, the Adventist's underlying tritheism and Ellen's unorthodox views have shaped the SDA doctrine of the Trinity, and what they have publicly endorsed is not what is privately communicated. Insiders know the "heavenly trio" is not equal. Outsiders only know Adventists claim an orthodox-sounding fundamental belief. Good clarification, Jeremy. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 801 Registered: 9-2006 |
I understood it very well Jeremy and what say you is correct as far as I can see, it is important. I would like to say this though, we cannot afford to get discouraged about the "mess" you have an excellent grasp on this thing and it is invaluable, the connection between masonic words and E.G for instance and your study will prove invaluable and God will not leave you fruitless. His word will bear fruit, and we need to believe his word over our feeling for our Adventist friends and family in crisis. This thing of believing in such false doctrine is a serious thing, we do not twist and spurn Gods word and get by. Cheerio Brother. River |
