| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 226 Registered: 1-2004  |
I just discovered a very in-depth discussion of the "soul" and whether it lives apart from the body. It is from the writings of some Christians from the 4th century with commentary. This is heavy reading but you will find that SDAism's idea that we cease to exist at death is similar to that of the people who Paul argued with in Athens... Epicureans. With a modern twist, in that modern science, unlike science back in Paul's time, assumes that there is no such thing as a soul or spirit as a part of a human being. Practically speaking, this fits rather well in SDA doctrine. Here's a quote from this online book; ...as we have indicated, the paradigm in modern biology does just what St Macrina thinks is absurd: it denies the existence of a soul in the living body, reducing to biochemistry everything that might be construed as ‘being alive’. Isn't this just what SDAism seems to think? They say there's a soul, but define it as a human body with "the breath of life", whatever that is, most likely air, in it. Sin becomes genetic, almost. Another quote; If we combine the autonomous individualism that arose in the Enlightenment with the consequentialism of the Utilitarians and the tendency of the Twentieth Century positivists to dismiss talk about God and ethics as emotion, what is the result? Basically if you realize what Christianity has always understood about what humans are, you start to realize just how confused SDAism really is on things. For those people who are tempted to be athiests, I would recommend reading at least the first section of this book. It's also good to give SDA's a deeper understanding of the Christian doctrine of the human soul. One thing a person may realize from reading this book is that Christianity is still up to date even though science has moved ahead quite a bit in 2000 years. You might be surprised just how educated these Christian saints were in the 4th century! Their conclusions and lessons still work even if you update the science. The book is linked here; http://timiosprodromos.blogspot.com/ Jeremiah | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 47 Registered: 5-2007 |
And if you look at other SDA doctrines like the Investigative Judgement, they have little, if any, more hope than an Atheist does. If you take the "limit" of the Investigative Judgement as EGW wrote about it in the Great Controversy, NO ONE not even her could be saved and you add "soul sleep" you basically get the same nonexistence of an afterlife the Atheists believe, and throw the burdensome SDA yoke on and I wonder why they even bother. Praise God I am free of the SDA nonsense! | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2007 |
May I ask the following in a courteous way. No offense intended. I have never had a problem with the idea of soul sleep, or loss of consciousness after death. "The dead know not anything." It seems logical to me that to raise the dead at the resurection is a sequential step. I have never seen scripture to support ghosts or spirits of the departed etc as being the norm. Yes there are examples of some being taken up. But the overall tenor is people simply pass from this life and wait till Christ returns. It is a blink of the eye in conscious time. I fathom there is a priori here. I have never been able to convince myself from scripture there is a norm for conciousness after death. What passages suggest soul awareness? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1805 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hi Jim, Chris did a Bible study on this forum about the state of the dead several weeks ago, that I think would be very helpful in figuring out what Scripture teaches on this subject. The study is on the following thread: http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/5410.html?1179860415 It starts on the first archived page, click on "Archive through April 16, 2007" Jeremy | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2007 |
Actually Jim if we die in Christ, the next thing we will see is Him anyway so it doesn't matter, really. There are many scriptures in the New Testament which seem to indicate some kind of existence after death. Where Paul says to "be absent from the body and with the Lord ". Then there is the story Jesus Himself told about Lazarus in the rich man being in the "Bosom of Abraham." There are other scriptures as well. But anyway this is an issue that I consider to be peripheral to salvation as I said if we die in Christ, He will be the next thing we see regardless. But I will admit I was NEVER able to fully accept "soul sleep" even when I believed in all the other Adventist doctrines. | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 227 Registered: 1-2004 |
Man was created in the image of God. God is a Spirit. Before the Incarnation, we didn't have God taking on a physical body like we have. The concept of "image" carries the idea of making a copy of something, but the copy is not the original. If man is in the image of God but God doesn't have a body, it means that there is some part of man that at least before sin was just like God who is a Spirit. In other words, there must be a "spirit" component to man. Since the Incarnation, there is also a "flesh" component to God.  Unless you don't think Jesus is God. Jeremiah | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2007 |
I totally agree with you Jeremiah. One of the main reasons that I was never able to accept soul sleep even when I belived in the rest of the Adventist doctrines is the very fact that the immortal soul is what makes us in the image of God. It's what makes us different from the beasts. Could part of the reason SDAs are veggie be that since they believe that we die like animals it's wrong to kill and eat them? But the Bible says God gave us dominion over the animals and gave them to us for food. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5884 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, I also recommend you access Chris's study which Jeremy linked to above. It's clear, concise, and detailed. Also, here's an article in a past Proclamation that I think you'll find helpful: http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2004_SepOct.pdf Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 540 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hi Jim, here's a good one... Rev. 6:9-11 (NIV) " 9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. " Not only are the spirits conscious, but they are given white robes to wear as well! (I wonder if they were silk or french terry? hehe) In addition to Chris's excellent study, there's a wonderful audio file regarding the subject by Pastor Martin called "What happens when you die?" You can find it at this link - http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Audio/tabid/57/Default.aspx Just scroll down, right click on the file and left click "save target as". Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1806 Registered: 10-2004 |
You're right Jeremiah, that we have to have a spirit in order to be created in the image of God, who is a Spirit (John 4:24). But the Adventists teach that God is not a Spirit--but rather that He is corporeal (has a body). EGW and the SDA church even go so far as to say that we were created in the physical image of God! In reality, what they are doing is creating a god in their own image, saying that he--by nature--has a body just like ours! What this also does is it causes them to teach polytheism ("the Father" and "the Son" [and even "the Holy Spirit"] as separate physical divine beings). Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5887 Registered: 12-2003 |
Right, Jeremy. I believe that the "physicalizing" of God is a deliberate attempt (at least on the part of evil!) to make us unaware that we have spirits, that it is this crucial part of ourselves that reflects God's image, and that the spirit is "where" our true salvation works itself out. Adventists believe it's all physical/mental. As long as they believe that, it's just about impossible to experience the new birth, learning to trust Jesus, and having security of salvation. Your point, Jeremiah, is absolutely right on. Colleen | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 110 Registered: 10-2006 |
I have always thought that the reason Adventists don't believe in our spirits returning to Christ at death is because they are afraid of spooks. I said this to an Adventist pastor awhile back and he agreed! steve | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thank You all for the links. I will study them. It appears that this is an area of key interest. I wonder what the main issues are (those obscured by SDA) that I am just now becoming aware, that need exploring. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 62 Registered: 5-2007 |
So true, Steve. I am just shocked sometimes at how superstitious some Adventists are. The fear of spooks thing was part of the culture in New England at the time EGW lived. Soul sleep was a product of the times in New England when EGW was alive. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5893 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, the foundational concerns obscured by Adventism are: the new covenant; the role of Sabbath; the existence of human spirits (as opposed to breath), the finished work (100% complete!) of Jesus, and the nature of Christ and the identity of the Trinity, the identity of the Spirit of Prophecy, the reliability of the Bible, the soveriegnty and wrath of God. With these things all obscured or twisted a quarter-turn off center, no one can experience security, true Sabbath rest in Jesus, or true fellowship in the Body of Christ. God is faithful; He Himself draws us toward Jesus and reveals truth. He asks us to trust Hin and follow. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 777 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: "Adventists believe it's all physical/mental. As long as they believe that, it's just about impossible to experience the new birth, learning to trust Jesus, and having security of salvation. Absolutely right Colleen, when I first stumbled upon the Adventist belief of soul sleep during conversations with my friends I minimized it Just like you Jim02, I never had a problem with it until I finally saw that it creates a huge problem, it is not just an innocent misunderstanding. It may be bigger than the IJ! urk, yuckle, choke. No Reb, I don't agree with you that soul sleep was a product of the times in New England when E.G.W lived, it may have existed but it was not a product of those times, I think it is a product of the devil to blind men’s hearts to God’s furnished salvation. I think it is older than Old England. IMHO. Come to think of it I can’t really see where being afraid of spooks has much to do with it either. Not that I am picking today to be generally disagreeable yawl understand, it’s just my two cents but if you throw superstition into the pot you just covered about every two people in the world. You didn’t dare get a nose bleed in my grand pappy’s day, he would hang a big chunk of lead around your neck and make you wear it all day even if you was a girl and wouldn’t be caught dead wearing a big chunk a ugly lead with a hole bored in it hangin on a piece of boot lace. Now that is spooky. There has been many a time I would rather face up to an old grave yard spook than to have to face up to grand pappy’s “Cures”. Come to that the Adventist spend a whole lot of time in them old graveyards diggin and muttering to themselves looking for them old law bones and throwing dirt over their shoulder, don’t look a fair amount to me like they is afeared a spooks. River | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 381 Registered: 5-2004 |
The deeper problem with the Adventist version of death/spirit is that it completely obliterates the significance of the New Birth by faith in Christ. If there is no spirit, then what value is being born of the Spirit? Also, you then completely disregard many of the promises of Christ...that those who believe in Him will never die, that He is life and He gives to those who believe. You also miss out on the significance of Adams sin and that when God said, "in the day you eat of it you will surely die." exactly that happened. - which results in the "sin state" for all of us until we are believers and reborn. But honestly, Chris' study is very excellent. And welcome to all the new faces around here | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 76 Registered: 5-2007 |
I has to attend SDA church last Sabbath. Guess what the seromon was on? Soul sleep! The speaker used ALL Old Testament scripture to support this. NOTHING from the New Testament was ever mentioned during this sermon. Could this be because of all the scripture in the New Testament that completely blows soul sleep out of the water? He also gave some reasons like you wouldn't want to be in heaven and see you loved ones on earth going through the trials of life on earth. Excuse, me but if you are with Christ he will be there to comfort you and wipe away every tear. Do they not trust Christ? And then the lame argument that souls of departed loved ones could contact you and tell you that they talked to God and He said the Sabbath docrtine(and possibly other SDA doctrines are wrong) and if you believe the dead exist you could believe it was your loved one. And then the third reason was being "afeared of spooks". The speaker was the friend at that church that I mentioned is actually quite progressive. He mouths the party line to keep his mother and wife happy who are both conservative Adventists. I talked to him after the sermon(he knows I am transitioning to the Seventh Day Baptist Church and he knows I don't believe in soul sleep). I made these points: 1) If you die in Christ, your spirit goes to be with Him. Your spirit is with Christ and cannot contact or be contacted by those in the World but is in some level of consciousness with Christ. Just as Paul said "absent from the body and with Christ". 2) God said DON'T contact spirits of the departed so DON'T do it. ANd why would God forbid us to contact something that doesn't exist. It doesn't make sense. 3) Because I wanted to keep this on a friendly level I added. If you die in Christ He is the next one you will see so it doesn't matter, its' a wash. I try not to be too confrontational as I love the people in that Church, it's the heresy I hate. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2007  |
Reb, The following is my opinion behind the need for their doctrine of Soul Sleep: The one argument for the doctrine of "Soul Sleep", that have never heard voiced in an SDA sermon, is their doctrine of "Investigative Judgment". If you were to admit to having conscious dead saints in the "arms" of the Lord Jesus Christ, then you have people who don't have to wait until "judgment day" to learn if they are saved. Therefore, you have to leave them unconscious in the grave until resurrection and the coming judgment. Since consciousness within the grave does not imply awareness of earthly matters, I find the Bible to be entirely consistent in such situations where Jesus is talking to Moses, who is clearly dead and in the grave. How can Moses talk to anybody, even Jesus, if there is no consciousness? So, if you take away "Soul Sleep", you have another reason to abandon "Investigative Judgment"! Phil | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 78 Registered: 5-2007 |
I agree totally, Phil. The IJ is another reason for this false doctrine of soul sleep. I found it interesting in the sermon I heard about soul sleep that the speaker completely ignored the New Testament. Because there is plenty of scripture in the New Testament that completely blows soul sleep out of the water. |
