| Author | Message | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 472 Registered: 11-2004 |
Is it just me or do you find that many SDAs have a greater propensity to "play the martyr" than others? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5831 Registered: 12-2003  |
Well, I don't know for sure, but I do know that the facade of Adventism (publicly good behavior with secret indulgences and sins justified by the whole Adventist lifestyle and behavior expectations) certainly is fertile soil for martyrdom! A very "carnal", physical-oriented health message, I believe, also contributes to hypervigilance re: body functions, etc. Not that the health message CAUSES these things, but it plays into anxiety-related compulsions. There's just a lot of anxiety and unresolved interpersonal issues in Adventism, and these things certainly find their expression in martyr-ish behavior often. Colleen | ||
| Richardtinker Board Administrator Username: Richardtinker Post Number: 76 Registered: 4-1999  |
I deleted a post that was beyond the scope of this forum. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 474 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thanks Colleen! What do you mean by "unresolved interpersonal issues"? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5833 Registered: 12-2003 |
Well, actually, I've noticed that there's a lot of abuse within Adventist families: emotional, sexual/incestuous, physical. With the need to appear successful, "good", and properly religious, there's a lot of anxiety and worry under the surface. And for some reason, abuse flourishes in these environments. There really is a lot of incest and other forms of sexual impropriety within Adventism, and there's also a lot of emotional enmeshment and manipulation within Adventist families. I know these things aren't limited to Adventism, but Adventism is what I know...and I know that the Adventist culture provides a framework of "clean living" and "good works" behind which all this generational emotional baggage can hide. Of course, not all Adventist families have these issues, but I have to say that within the Adventist families I have known in my life, there are A LOT of "unresolved interpersonal issues". I have a private theory that sexual impropriety is almost a legacy from Ellen and James White. Remember the Damian trial which recorded the disruptive gathering of early Adventists where Ellen was on the floor with people calling her "the image of Christ" and James was disappearing into the bedroom with young women? Also, James and Ellen's own travels together without chaperones before their marriage? (Ellen's mother finally told her they had to get married because it looked bad...) This sort of thing seems to be part of the legacy from the founders... Colleen | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 272 Registered: 2-2006 |
Yes,U2bsda! I agree with all that Colleen posted. Another 'finger on this hand' is the SDA mindset of 'Us vs. Them'. If one leaves and tells why--even just inadvertedly critisizing the SDA church and EGW-- some will see this as being a martyr for their beliefs and proof that Adventism is the real faith. Then, comes along pride, behind that. I have seen some become what is called 'professional victims'--all about them. I can speak about myself on this pride ("Thank you, God, that I was born an Adventist, not like them out there, who know not The Truth"), remembering how I was as just a child and teen SDA. It is not a fond character memory. Cathy | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2007 |
THIN SKINNED! After observing my wife’s brother and sisters (2nd gen SDA) for 37 years all I’ve seen is animosity between them over theology (as interpreted by EGW) They take any view that differs from theirs very personally. The result has been alienation. I find it difficult to understand how a family that was brought up in the ‘TRUTH’ and call themselves Christians could be so unloving. Unfortunately this fragmentation is common in the church family as well. I think the problem is that they live behind an easily breached facade which cause them to shun any genuine closeness with others which would include any questioning of their belief system. If we could just accept our sinful human natures and the inevitable failures we wouldn’t be so concerned by ‘appearances’. Sigh! When will we ever learn? JonVil | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 380 Registered: 5-2004 |
I have seen this attitude in my family too, U2b. I agree with everything said here so far, and Cathy, you're right on with the "us vs them" mentality...at least as far as my experience goes. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 158 Registered: 1-2006  |
I attended a large conference of SDA leaders about four years ago in which the speaker told us that GC expenditures for legal fees were approximately equivalent to those of the Catholic church for sexual harassment/immorality lawsuits. The actual amount that the church spent on defending these cases annually was quoted. It was a real wake-up call. We are fallen sinners. May God help us. Jesus was right in the parable of the good Samaritan, in which everyone kept the 10 commandments--to the letter--but failed to see the bigger picture. So much for the OC. Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 159 Registered: 1-2006 |
An explanation is needed. I assumed that the RC Church in North America has about 60 million members. The quick math I did in my head as he told us this was that the GC was spending about the same amount per capita as the Catholic church was spending, given the membership size differences. This is not meant as criticism of either church. I think it has a lot to do with our view of OC law based morality. I have previously mentioned research by La Sierra University students on this point, so will let it rest for now. Bob | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 476 Registered: 11-2004 |
Wow, thanks for all the responses. I have experts in my family who can "play the martyr". I had thought it was just my family until I ran into some SDAs who were pretty good at martrydom too. My spouse (never was SDA) has been telling me that SDAs are martyrs for awhile now, but I didn't "see" it. Maybe he was right all along. Jonvil said "I think the problem is that they live behind an easily breached facade which cause them to shun any genuine closeness with others which would include any questioning of their belief system." This has me thinking as well. This was a huge problem in my family (well, a problem to me anyway). There is no depth in relationship. Surface relationships is all there is. Now this isn't just because of me leaving SDAdom, but it was a problem when I was an SDA. If there was a deep issue it may have been addressed slightly then swept under the rug. Appearances were and are everything. It is interesting that maybe these types of relationships have a greater propensity to show up in SDA homes than not. It has been frustrating to deal with, but I've come to realize that you can't get milk from a chicken. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2007 |
U2bsda said: "This has me thinking as well. This was a huge problem in my family (well, a problem to me anyway). There is no depth in relationship. Surface relationships is all there is. Now this isn't just because of me leaving SDAdom, but it was a problem when I was an SDA. If there was a deep issue it may have been addressed slightly then swept under the rug. Appearances were and are everything. It is interesting that maybe these types of relationships have a greater propensity to show up in SDA homes than not. It has been frustrating to deal with, but I've come to realize that you can't get milk from a chicken." This has been a point of frustration with me since I joined the SDA church. Something else I have observed is that those who remain aloof can become quite animated when with former classmates. The ‘remember when’ game is played and all the fun they had. What happened to them after school let out? Why can’t they have ‘fun’ with church members? Weird. JonVil Udder failure? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5835 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ha! JonVil, good question. It is a very hard thing to explain, but I'll try to give it some words that make sense. In Adventism, one's identity is the church—unlike among born again Christ-followers. For true Christ-followers, Jesus IS their identity and rallying point. In Adventism, being one of the true remnant church IS one's identity. Whether one is irreligious or obsessive-complusive about adhering to the Testimonies, "Adventist" IS the identity. Those born into the church have a deeper indoctrination than do many converts—although converts who take the religion seriously make it their business to become indoctrinated. There truly is an unspoken "heirarchy". Those who are converts are on the bottom rung of the social ladder. The reasons are vague but powerful: they don't know all the "rules" and doctrinal intricacies; they don't share a "past" including all the familiy alliances made between each other's parents and grandparents when they were in school—or when they worked for various church institutions. If one didn't go to Adventist schools, they don't share the common chafing at the rules, the ways around the dorm deans, the private trampling of Sabbath and other institutional "sacred cows" like gluten, fake meat, door-lock at 10:00 (or whatever time), dorm worships, etc. Even the under-the-surface scandals become a bonding link. Those converted into the church just don't know or haven't experienced all the secrets and all the collective angst and cognitive dissonance that literally drives the social interaction among Adventists. Adventist kids are shaped by the intensely class-conscious social structure which places physicians at the top (they have the money, hence the power to control the local church), other professionals who make money: dentists, engineers, lawyers, etc. slightly below the physicians, and ministers (because of their position as church employees given charge over the members) taking their place somewhere near but just under the "high-rollers". Following these strata are allied health-care professionals, SDA school teachers, etc. (Of course, there is cross-over among these categories; the social lines between them are somewhat fluid.) Next would be the less-educated members, and at the bottom are those who have "divided homes": one parent SDA, the other not, and those who have parents who are not necessarily "good" Adventists, work in secular jobs, and attend church sporadically. Converts may circulate among whatever social class their profession dictates, but because of the lack of shared pasts and the deep understanding of the oddities and convictions of Adventism, they may always feel a bit marginalized. So, they become animated with former classmates because they have a deep cultural identification with those who shared their formative years. For Adventists, the school chums retain deep bonds that I can only compare to the phenomenon of the bonding that occurs among soldiers who shared traumatic time in the trenches. Those moments that deeply shaped us bond us with those who shared them. Does that make sense? Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 763 Registered: 9-2006  |
U2bsda, For one thing I, for some reason thought you were a man ever since I got here until you said this line. My spouse (never was SDA) has been telling me that SDAs are martyrs for awhile now, but I didn't "see" it. Maybe he was right all along. Sorry about that! Seems like I live with my foot in my mouth lately. On the subject of this thread it seems to me what you all are describing are an unregenerated group of people with some form of religion. One of my friends visited with me recently and his attitude was hard and judgmental toward our other mutual friends, he would catch himself and try to change like a cameleon when he saw I was not going to change from speaking of them with a fond manner, he went through this cameleon like change two or three times in a period of 10 minutes. I didn't let on that I detected the change but I saw. I wish playing the martyr was all that was the problem, I would consider that a small thing.Lately this has been my prayer "God give me a contrite and gentle spirit" I really want that. River | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2007 |
Colleen Bingo!! I get the impression that you may have thought about this before. As I read your post I kept saying to myself 'well-of course'-the veil has been lifted. "For Adventists, the school chums retain deep bonds that I can only compare to the phenomenon of the bonding that occurs among soldiers who shared traumatic time in the trenches." That's almost too sad to contemplate. I kind of grasped their identity being the church but totally missed the bonding issue. If this is a result of 'surviving' the system it's a terrible commentary. This concept has had quite an impact on me and given me greater insight into the attitudes of generational Adventists. Thanks for a very lucid explanation. JonVil | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2007 |
I remember the feeling that converts never really made it to the inner circles. Since I was young, I had a 50/50 experience. I did do some time at Academy, so experienced the 'thrill' of smuggling things past the dean, cutting dorm worship without getting caught, etc. I was shocked at first, to find such behavior. Then I realized a 'goody-goody' would end up at the very bottom of the popularity list, and yes, being a brat, it didn't take me long to get into mischief. Even so, I didn't fit in with the life long SDA kids and left the Academy after a few months. My next experience with SDA education was as a senior at an adventist college. I transfered in due to the expense of going all four years at an SDA institution. I was shocked again to find college a re-run of Academy. Lights out at 10 p.m., dorm worship with attendance taken, etc. Wow! after three years at a state university, that was culture shock. Same rule bending activity going on of course. Except the stakes seemed higher and the 'cognitive dissonance' so much greater. At that time 1980, you could get expelled for smuggling a TV or pepperoni pizza into the dorm. Yet one of the residential advisers had no problem helping a girl arrange an abortion. This among many other things helped push me over the line to leaving. I respect that not everyone agrees on all the many issues surrounding abortion, and its not my intention to open that discussion. At the same time, a heavy penalty for smuggling pizza, while allowing abortion to have an appearance of being condoned, just seemed wrong to me. So much so I could not accept it. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5839 Registered: 12-2003 |
Marysroses, the abortion incident vs. the pepperoni pizza does not surprise me at all. I have another theory that I actually heard years ago from a former student who had a particularly traumatic, abusive childhood in her Adventist home: the rigid vegetarianism and the strict public observance of the "health message" is necessary because so many Adventists use their ascetic diet to try to "self purge" from the excesses they do privately. There's a lot of guilt in Adventism--and a lot of transgression. The vegetarianism helps them feel "purified" and "good" when their personal lives are out-of-control. It all becomes rather compulsive and obsessive. I didn't attend boarding school until college--we lived near Portland Union (now Adventist) Academy--but I will never forget the pervasive anxiety and trauma of the girls in the dorm. There were those who would drink privately (it was strictly forbidden, of course), sleep with their boyfriends, some who were being pursued and seduced by faculty members (I'm not exaggerating), others who were chronically depressed or insecure and neruotic, some with outright OCD (I remember one attractive girl who would stand in front of her mirror every day and, after applying her mascara, would use a straight pin and individually separate each lash...her very bright younger brother was found murdered a few years later on a country road shortly after dropping out of a residency program...I still feel sad when I remember it...) And so on. There is so much sadness and trauma. Again, I am so thankful that God is both merciful and just. There will be heavy prices for some to pay...and others who will be comforted by His eternal care. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3642 Registered: 3-2004  |
My first year in La Sierra my roommate would go visit an SDA aunt and uncle on weekends and her cousin would sleep with her. She did not like it and at the time I did not know what to tell her. In a way it was consensual because it happened every time she visited her relatives. I know from my own family things happened behind the scenes as an Adventist family. They were awful. Again, Colleen, I quote you..."There is so much sadness and trauma. Again, I am so thankful that God is both merciful and just. There will be heavy prices for some to pay...and others who will be comforted by His eternal care." I am so thankful for His mercy and justice. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Nicole Registered user Username: Nicole Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-2006 |
someone mentioned superficial relationships within SDA families. I have always thought my husband's family relationships (immediate family) was superficial. major issues to deal with, but never really addressed. my family is the opposite in that things are dealt with openly, usually as a family. we have (and have always had) personal relationships with our parents and can disagree on a number of issues yet still have a high level of respect and love for one another. much different in his family. avoidance is how they have always dealt with problems. not sure if this ties in with what you were talking about-just made me think. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3643 Registered: 3-2004 |
Nicole, How you speak of your family with superficial relationships is how my family is. I have a VERY good relationship with my oldest sister and 2 of my brothers. The others I have to tread softly. I have only recently had the very good relationship with my sister. I thank God for that. He is so awesome. Diana |
