| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 697 Registered: 7-2004  |
I posted this on CARM and thought that I would share it here as well. A Mormon co-worker and I were in the south working on a consulting project this week. We finished early one day and decided to drive 2 hours to New Orleans and have dinner at Mothers. This meant we had a lot of time to talk in the car. Some questions came up about religion, and so I asked him a little about his beliefs. I found his descriptions really interesting: We believe that the greatest gift that God gave to man is free will. We will have to answer to God for our sins, and our sins only. Original sin is a man-made concept that came into place hundreds of years after Jesus. We are saved by grace. But most people misunderstand grace. If we repent from our sins, and obey His commands then His grace is applied to us so that we can be saved. If grace meant that you were saved without repentance and obedience, then people could just do whatever they wanted. We believe that the gift of prophecy didn't end with the Bible. God promised it to His church. As our world changes, we need new understanding. (this sounded a lot like "Present Truth" but he didn't use those words). There are three persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are one because they have the same purpose and goals. But they are not the same being. Jesus Christ is fully Divine. He is the Messiah Who died for our sins. But the teaching of the Trinity is not found in Scripture. It is a man-made distinction that came hundreds of years later. We reject all the creeds because they are man-made interpretations of Scripture that came hundreds of years later. This sounded eerily familiar from start to finish. Consider these statements from my wife's 1975 baptismal certificate: "The true and living God, the first person of the Godhead, is our heavenly Father, and He, by His Son, Jesus Christ, created all things. Jesus Christ, the second person of the Godhead, and the eternal Son of God, is the only saviour from sin; and man's salvation is by grace through faith in Him. The Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, is Christ's representative on earth and leads sinners to repentance and to obedience of all God's requirements. Through Christ, believers receive forgiveness of sins which are forsaken and confessed, and for which, as far as lies in their power, restitution is made." | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1074 Registered: 4-2000  |
Ric, Truly, there are amazing commonalities between Mormonism and Adventism. Joseph Smith even claimed to be the "Spirit of Prophecy" and not being merely a prophet. Mormon apologists further claim that the Adventists stole their "health message." Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5847 Registered: 12-2003  |
Amazing. The next issue of Proclamation actually focusses on the Adventist understanding of the Trinity and the identity of Jesus. Without doubt, Adventists do not have a Christian belief in the Trinity; they actually do believe in a Trinity like the Mormons espouse: three separate beings (EGW called them "the heavenly trio" the "three great Worthies", etc.) and she NEVER endorsed the orthodox Christian understanding of the Trinity. It's quite amazing, actually, when you look at closely at what has been written and at what is currently being said by Adventists. The latest Proclamation will be online within a few days... Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 758 Registered: 7-2004  |
Maybe the main reason mainstream Christianity rejects Mormons as Christians and not SDA's has nothing to do with their tritheism. I think most Christians have never heard of tritheism and would have a hard time understanding the distinction between the two unless it was pointed out to them. I think the bigger reason Mormons get rejected as heretical over their view of God is because they believe God was at one time a man that attained God status, or something like that. That certainly does not fit in with the trinity doctrine and it's easy for everyone to see that it doesn't. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5851 Registered: 12-2003 |
True, Raven. Under the surface Adventists are confused about Jesus and God--but on the surface they look OK. Deception is deception...and its powerful because it works. People don't even know they're trusting in something that isn't real. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1797 Registered: 10-2004  |
Here is a very interesting audio file, featuring Walter Martin speaking about Mormonism: http://www.towertotruth.net/Audiofiles/martin_maze_of_mormonism.mp3 What's so interesting is that so many of the things he says also apply to Adventism and yet he does not condemn Adventism on the same points--it's like a double standard. (I've noticed this in other audio files with him talking about JW/LDS, too.) He even mentions that a magazine published what different religions believed, and that it was based on what official spokesmen of each denomination told them. He says that the Mormons answered the question, "Do Mormons believe in the the Holy Trinity?" in the following way: "Yes. The Latter-Day Saints accept the Godhead as three literal distinct personalities: God the Father; His son Jesus the Christ, who is one with the Father in purpose and in thought, but separate from Him in physical fact; and the Holy Ghost, a personage of spirit. Acts 7:55..." (Which is basically the teaching of Adventism!) Then Walter Martin says, "Do the Mormons really believe the Christian doctrine of the Trinity? Or are we simply using words with different meanings? The only way to ascertain the truth is to go to Mormon theology, to go to Mormon publications, to what the Mormons teach. And to do that, I would like to call your attention to what the Mormons say about the nature of God." I can't understand why Walter Martin could not see the same thing with Adventism, and do the same thing with Adventism. People have criticized me for saying that we have to find out what Adventism means when they say "Trinity"--but this is exactly what Walter Martin said that we need to do. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1798 Registered: 10-2004 |
P.S. Walter Martin says later on in the audio file: "No polytheist can be a Christian." | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5854 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, I have to agree with you. There is a real reason why Adventists in general do not think of Jesus as being equally powerful as the Father. There is a reason why Jesus seems like the part of God children understand, but the more mature, educated ones will refer motre often to "God" or, if they must, "Christ". Without doubt Ellen did not teach or endorse the Trinity, but she and the church fathers played with the words and confused and deceived the members so they think they believe in the real God. To be sure, God is faithful and is bigger than our perversions. He personally seeks, find, and calls to Himself many Adventists. But when He does, He begins to reveal Himself, and He calls us to follow Him into truth. It's important, though, that we be honest with ourselves and ask God to reveal truth to us, and we need to be willing to know and embrace that truth as He reveals it to us. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 698 Registered: 7-2004 |
Personally, I think that truth and error on the nature of the Trinity exist side-by-side in SDAism. What concerns me is that those who prsent clear error on the subject are completely tolerated and accepted within SDAism. The fundamental beliefs say that the church believes in the Trinity. But that fundamental belief doesn't appear to be as important as some of the others. For instance, if Blanco had trampled the SDA beliefs in the Sabbath or the IJ in his paraphrase of Scripture in any manner similar to what he has done to the Divinity of Jesus he would have be chased out of SDAism faster than I can type this post. This outright acceptance of error suggests to me that the doctrine of the Trinity, while perhaps believed by a number of SDAs, is not a cornerstone doctrine in SDAism. SDAism may give lipservice to the doctrine of the Trinity, but the practices of the church do not demonstrate that it is a "fundamantal belief" of the church. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 811 Registered: 10-2002  |
That's the interesting thing, Ric. The "Fundamental" beliefs AREN'T. They are not the true "fundamental" beliefs of Adventism. The true fundamentals are not written down. The 28 are written down for show -- partially for other churches to see, and partially for Adventists to see so they can feel assured that they stand in the heritage of Christianity. But even while Adventists, we knew we were kidding ourselves about the fundamental beliefs. We knew there were *other* things that were more "fundamental". And we knew how to read the bottom line to what was in the 27 (or 28, etc). Or we knew how to read *between* the lines. We knew all the lines were not necessary! The whole thing about SOP, etc., is simply summed up as "EGW". The big word "stewardship" just means "tithe". All the true fundamentals are already decided, and all the extra words and descriptions (and the verses) are just that -- just *extra*. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3652 Registered: 3-2004  |
Ric and Ramone, I do agree with you that the SDA fundamental beliefs "aren't". I was raised at a time when the SDA church in So California was very historical. Thank God, I am no longer in that place. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5857 Registered: 12-2003 |
Rick and Ramone, you are right. The fact is that Adventism did not spring from the trunk of apostolic Christianity; it sprang from Arianism, and that heresy still colors all Adventist beliefs and practices. Even when the official words say the "right" things, the people themselves perceive Jesus, God, salvation, death, life, sin, etc. differenty from the way orthodox Christians have understood them since the foundation of the Church. As you metnioned, Rick, Blanco has denigrated the divinity of Jesus in The Clear Word in a significant way, and the church accepts it. Such altering of the Sabbath would not be tolerated. The Sabbath functions, within Adventism, as a type of god--eternal, required, honored, sacred, and in practice, salvific. Jesus can be diminished, but never the Sabbath--and never Ellen, either. I know my words sound, perhaps, harsh--but the reality of who Jesus is is overwhelming. It is such a shameful thing that millions of Adventists are taught that He is less than Almighty God and able to fail--at least while on earth. Without an understanding of the truth about Jesus, the reality of the Trinity can't begin to be understood, either (not that we ever really understand this mystery!). Colleen | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 160 Registered: 1-2006  |
Raven You wrote: I think the bigger reason Mormons get rejected as heretical over their view of God is because they believe God was at one time a man that attained God status, or something like that. I had an LDS teacher who told us that Mormons believe "As God was, we are; as God is, we may become." Bob | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 583 Registered: 4-2006  |
Hi guys, LDS are very heretic, following the doctrine of Satan from Genesis 3:4-5 '"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."' See http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_06/refJDvol6-1.html Search for "An exalted man" and "learn how to be Gods", "council of the Gods" I'm witnessing to four mormons at the moment, please pray for them, that they may be saved from the wrath of God. In Christ, Martin | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 41 Registered: 5-2007 |
I think Mormonism is an even grosser and more egregious error than Adventism. They are both erroneuous but Mormonism has even grosser and worse errors. But Adventism being more subtle is better able to "fool" the Christian community into thinking it is not an error. I've heard it said that Adventism has the whitest fleece of all the wolves out there. Perhaps it's subletly makes it more dangerous? | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1077 Registered: 4-2000 |
Very true, Reb! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1809 Registered: 10-2004 |
Rick, I noticed that on CARM you said something about the SDAs updating the wording of their beliefs, but I just found out today that those statements that you posted from your wife's 1975 baptismal certificate actually have not been changed--they still appear almost exactly as you posted them in the current SDA Church Manual, as found on the official SDA website (adventist.org), and are apparently still on the current baptismal certificates. Under the Appendix "Summary of Doctrinal Beliefs" on page 219, the Church Manual says:
And on pages 31-32, it says:
And the first four statements in the "Summary of Doctrinal Beliefs" are as follows:
And numbers 5 and 8 are also interesting:
Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1810 Registered: 10-2004 |
So, I wonder, if only "the first person of the Godhead" is the "true and living God," then what are the other two? False gods? Jeremy | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 760 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jeremy, I was comparing the Summary of Doctrinal Beliefs in the link you supplied (it's in the Appendix) with my 1975 baptismal certificate's Summary of Doctrinal Beliefs. They are identical except for one section. I saw in the current church manual you linked, they have 28 instead of 27. So that shows they didn't just forget to update the Appendix to match the new Fundamental Beliefs. I figured they have 28 now because the Fundamental Beliefs are 28, and they would have added that one about Growing in Christ. But they did not. Instead they added a new #15 that is regarding marriage and sexual purity. I wonder why they didn't update the "Doctrinal Beliefs specifically for baptismal candidates" to match the current Fundamental Beliefs? That gives even more credence to the explanation that they want a different public image from what members are supposed to agree to. Thanks for finding that - it's really eye-opening! (Message edited by Raven on May 25, 2007) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1079 Registered: 4-2000 |
In regard to the investigative judgment, former sabbatarians are technically exempt from it. Ellen White sternly declared, "I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers...And if one believed, and kept the Sabbath,...and then gave it up... they would shut the gates of the Holy City against themselves, as sure as a God rules in heaven above" (A Word to the Little Flock, page 18). Gratefully, under the New Covenant, there is no "dividing wall" (Ephesians 2:14,15). Ellen White has already pronounced the sentence of doom upon all former sabbatarians--no investigative judgment needed. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5903 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ha! That's funny, Dennis...and so true. Raven, I agree with you. The attempt to present a "clean" public image underlies everything. Colleen |
