| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 784 Registered: 10-2002  |
Good sum, River. It is terribly mixed up. Not only is there the veil of the Old Covenant that comes from reversion to Law and unwillingness to let go of its glory for the New, but there is also the veil of the cultic/demonic influence of Ellen White. I always take comfort (and see it for others) in a verse in the Psalms which says, "God does not despise His captive children." I want people to be saved, but ultimately I won't know the status of that, so it is more than enough that I ask for His heart for them to be free in Christ. Usually that entails getting to know someone personally, finding out what fears and joys they have, and above all asking for His heart for them and living it in agape love for them. Knowing what's possible in Adventism (fears, etc.) is very beneficial, but I can't automatically say that because a person is "Adventist", that they will have this and this and this problem. There are so many varieties in all the confusion that the very best thing to do is get to know them and follow the Spirit. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5765 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, River—"insanity" sums up the craziness here. There is one thing I believe all Adventists have in common, even the ones who are the most evangelical: they still are in bondage to the spirit of Adventism. The reason I KNOW this is true is because not only of my own experience but because of the experiences of a great many other people who have told me theirs. As Jeremy said, people from all the cults can seek the true Jesus of the Bible—and they do. I know that I was one of those who really wanted to know the real Jesus, and He was faithful and revealed Himself to me. He did, however, lead me step by step away from my loyalty to Adventism and its culture and heritage. With each step of obedience that I took away from the "stuff" of SDA-ism, there were new levels of spiritual insight and understanding that opened up. Even though I wanted to serve Jesus and to honor Him and know the truth, I couldn't accept the implications of the new covenant until I admitted Ellen was a false prophet. Only when I admitted she was a false prophet could I accept what the Bible said about Jesus fulfilling the new covenant. Only then could I see that the law was actually nailed to the cross and now I had Jesus alone holding me accountable through His Spirit. Adventists who claim Jesus but stay in the church are still blind to the new covenant. They still live with cognitive dissonance and a level of angst, and they deeply believe/fear that giving up the Sabbath would mean being lost. They are still in bondage to a false gospel—although God is drawing them to Him and asking them to trust Him enough to abandon what they love. Yes, there are many "varieties" of Adventists—but there is only one Adventism, and the spirit of Adventism—the same spirit that gave Ellen a false Jesus—has a claim on all Adventists. The more they choose to say "yes" as Jesus reveals truth, the less hold that spirit has. But it still exerts its clouding, deceiving influence until a person admits it's real and renounces it. One of the reasons so many people who are "formers" still have trouble being open about their past and talking about Adventism freely is that they have stopped short of admiting that they were in an organization that had a false prophet led by a demonic spirit. This fact is part of the truth with which the Lord Jesus confronts us that, when we embrace it, sets us free. Only when we actually acknowledge the true nature of what we were in, admit that and surrender it to Jesus, asking Him to replace it with Himself and His Spirit, do we really become free from Adventism's deception and confusion. Only when we become completely free from the spiritual legacy of Adventism do we really experience the full freedom and joy of being in Jesus. I believe that God is steadily revealing the truth about Adventism. The more people who can accept this initially embarassing truth and surrender it to God, the more the confusion, deception, and power of Adventism will weaken. As Ephesians 5:11-14 says, "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: 'Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you'." Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1770 Registered: 10-2004  |
I agree, Colleen. Even with all the so-called "varieties," all the different "varieties" of Adventism still believe the same things at the core. The language may sound a little different, but they still hold onto the same core beliefs. For example, even the "evangelical" or "progressive" SDA churches/pastors will not renounce the doctrine of Satan being the scapegoat and affirm the Biblical truth of Jesus being the Scapegoat--and this is probably true among individual SDAs who don't even believe in 1844! And of course, no SDA pastor/church can publicly denounce any official SDA teaching, including 1844/IJ, without consequences from higher up in the cult. The way I see it, Adventism is very united in its beliefs and does not allow deviation from those beliefs. They do, of course, allow individual congregations to do a better job of hiding those beliefs, or making them sound more "evangelical." But the bottom line is--it's no different than the Mormons or JWs. There is only one Adventism, as Colleen puts it so well--just as there is only one Mormonism and only one JW"ism". Also, when people talk about there being so much truth mixed in with the error, I have a hard time understanding what they are talking about. What I want to know is--what truth? Where? I don't see it. Seriously, someone please make a list for me of "all the truth" in Adventism that is mixed in with the error. Jeremy | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 140 Registered: 1-2006  |
Sabra, You wrote: "I'm starting to believe that Jesus guarded us that survived, and some just weren't His to guard. I know that Jesus was always there with me, as a small child I knew there was something just not right." I really appreciated your post, and I would guess that others here have experienced similar protection. Like you, I often sensed something deeply wrong with what I was hearing at home and in school and at church. Praise God for your Baptist neighbors and for God's protection and care over you. Jesus is a mighty Saviour. Bob | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 786 Registered: 10-2002 |
This is where, again, Adventism has very close parallels to the Shinto spirit in Japan. One of the hallmarks of the spirit here is to keep things blurry and not directly stated or clearly define-able. In the same way, "Adventism" tolerates a lot of variations so long as the 'baby' isn't thrown out--that is, so long as the "ism" isn't thrown out. You can accept and reject many things, but there is a point where it will make everyone uncomfortable (such as openly denouncing the Sanctuary or saying EGW was a false prophet). This is why I said that the "ism" of "Adventism" can be seen in a few different ways. 1) Textbook/Historical Adventism 2) Modern Adventism 3) Institutional Adventism Depending on who you're talking to, you'll get different answers as to what constitutes "Adventism". It's like asking about Communism---you will get different answers from a Marxist, a Cuban, a Vietnamese farmer, a Chinese Communist, and from someone in the deeply-cultic North Korea. There are some definite commonalities, but perhaps the greatest commonality is simply the allegiance to the same flag, so to speak, the allegiance to the "ism", even if they disagree somewhat on what that "ism" is. The spirit that began Adventism similarly demands loyalty to the Adventist flag, so to speak. It keeps the actuality of what Adventism is obscure and somewhat undefined, just like the Japanese Shinto spirit. What it demands is loyalty and an honored place in the house. Even if many tenets of the original Adventist faith are denied, so long as the flag is honored (so long as the identity is honored), then the spirit won't be thrown out. There are many ways for the spirit to work as long as its kept in the house, and it needn't take the traditional/historical routes. Colleen, I don't want to be antagonistic, but watch out for generalizing too sharply here. I do know Adventists who are staying inside but do know clearly about the New Covenant (until God calls them out) and are not in the least concerned about being lost. And I did not call Ellen White a "false" prophet until years well after understanding the New Covenant. I can't stereotype everyone by my experience, but the reverse should also hold true. Above all, if the light of the Gospel & the New Covenant shines bright enough, Ellen will be exposed sooner or later. For some it must be soon. For others, she will be shelved and denounced later. But above all if the Gospel is received, that is good news and sufficient (because His arms are sufficient). At that point the path is started on, and will lead in every direction He needs it to. Jeremy, as for all the "truth" mixed in with error, look at the doctrinal statements of Adventism. There is some outright false stuff in there, but a lot of the rest of it is very similar to what you'd find in an evangelical statement of beliefs. As you and I know, however, there are a lot of important things left out of the "fundamental beliefs" which hold quite a bit of power & sway, and often change the understanding of standard things. But a lot of the existence of truth in Adventism is due to the ignorance of EGW. For example, I think almost every Adventist I know is generally unaware of the ramifications & implications of the scapegoat belief. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5771 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ramone, you're right; I can't be too dogmatic here. I do believe, however, that the spirit of Adventism does exert a powerful influence, just as you have said in regards to the butsudan in Japan. It has a spiritual claim; unless people actually deal with it before God, it will affect them. And God does lead people to see this reality in His time and way. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 787 Registered: 10-2002 |
I need to actually say a big thank you to Jeremy for this thread--- and to you, too, Colleen. I was just downstairs with my wife as she was nursing our baby boy, Timothy, and was talking with her about Ellen White being a definite false prophet. I noticed that actually, I had not used the expression "false prophet" before. I always try to see the best in people, and I do believe she was deceived. At what point she agreed with and deviously took part in stuff, I can't and won't judge. But the entire net effect of her prophetic ministry is clearly that which can and should be called the ministry of a false prophet. As we talked about this, it was ironic because my wife was sitting in front of the "butsudan" closet... the home we're in now was built for the owner of the building, and people in higher positions (owners, etc.) in Japan tend to be more religious than most, so they maintain their ancestral altars ("butsudan") more than most average folks do. Our home has a space for one, and maybe the previous owners had one (we prayed and anointed the space when we moved in). For us, it has become a literal functioning closet, holding our coats, a few magazines, a bilingual Bible and a giant book about pregnancy & baby's first year.  But it made me think, and you guys made me think. I've made the comparison between Shinto and Adventism, and I believe that it is likely the same spirit in different guises (footnote: the butsudan is actually Buddhist, but it is completely absorbed into Japanese Shinto culture). So if I replace "Adventism" with "Shinto"... If a Japanese person met Jesus and became a Christian, it would entail throwing out the old religion. Yet it depends on how deeply immersed that person is in the old religion. Some have family altars, some do not. Some actively go to shrines and temples, but most do not (except when needing some good luck on a test, etc.). For many Christian converts, leaving the old religions behind (with idols, etc.) is so obvious that it hardly needs to be stated. But with others, there is a hybrid which needs to be dealt with. Many Christians still keep their family altars, perhaps likely because of the pluralistic/syncretic nature of Shinto and Buddhism (with a pinch of postmodernism thrown in for effect). In these cases, the demonic nature of the Shinto/Buddhist spirits needs to be clearly exposed. For others, worshiping God alone will be obvious and sufficient enough. But for places where the 'amalgamation' exists... What I'm trying to say is that if I imagine someone with Christianity + a Butsudan (ancestral altar), the issue is clear enough. However, before I had not seen it the same way if I imagined someone with Christianity + Ellen White (or Adventism). Now it's becoming a bit clearer. Although the Gospel can be known while keeping the family altar, there is always spiritual oppression from having it in the house (which manifests in different forms, not always the same, but frequently having some commonalities). Adventism is basically a hybrid, like Butsudan-Christianity, an attempt to hold onto two different spirits---the Holy Spirit and an ancestral spirit (the spirit of the Adventist forefathers). Anyway, this is becoming a bit clearer. Thanks, Jeremy & Colleen. It will affect my prayers for people still in Adventism. Blessings and freedom in Christ, Ramone | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5772 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praise God, Ramone! I understand what you're describing about seeing this issue more clearly. Just this morning I had a phone call from a person who has been out of Adventism for five years. He is alive in Jesus and rejoicing in Him, but he said that he still has trouble really knowing that all the things he has discovered about Adventism are really true. This "partial knowing" where our heads know facts but our hearts can't quite accept the implications is part of the process we all go through. Some things are really clear suddenly; others "grow" on us. I believe the slower-growing realizations affect us at levels where we are most personally vulnerable, and we probably sense we have the "most to lose" by embracing them. God is patient and merciful, however, and He completes what He begins in us. He doesn't allow us to continue to deny reality without confronting us with it over and over! Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1771 Registered: 10-2004 |
Leigh Anne wrote: "Are you still working on that web site? Is it up yet?" I've been busy with some other things, but I hope to get back to working on it soon--hopefully I can get it done pretty soon here! Ramone, You wrote:
Actually, I would say that Adventism is like the Shinto/Buddhist religion, and the "hybrid" (or attempt to hold onto two different spirits) comes into play when someone who has been Adventist becomes a Christian--just like with the Butsudan-Christianity thing you described. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1772 Registered: 10-2004 |
In the past, when I have called Ellen G. White a satan-worshipping prophet, I have been attacked on this forum, but someone tell me what else you can call a person who writes such things as the following (and these are just a few examples of many such quotes--plus there are other things such as the Masonic connection, etc.):
Notice in that last quote that "Christ" is one step lower than "God" and Satan is one step lower than "Christ." Therefore, according to EGW, Satan was as close to being "Christ" as "Christ" was to being "God." According to EGW, Satan was the third god--look at that first quote, too. The first two quotes are just totally incredible--I just found them recently. Regarding that first quote--God does not "share" His "glory" with anyone--and certainly not with satan as ellen claims!!!! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 01, 2007) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1773 Registered: 10-2004 |
God says:
Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5773 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, those are very telling quotes. It is very hard for people to internalize the reality about Ellen when all of life has been subtley shaped by her. None of us wants to think we really have an evil false prophet in our heritage! What does that make us, we wonder? There is great liberty in recognizing the truth about her and giving to God all that part of our heart that was under her influence. God is completely faithful, and when we confess and surrender to Him our own deception and ties to the falseness of our "foremother", He is faithful. We don't have to beg or plead to be restored and healed inside, like the Baal priests begged and pleaded for their gods to hear them. Admitting the truth is very freeing, and I speak from experience; not until I renounced the spiritual claim on me that I inherited from Adventism was I completely free from the emotional ties and backward glances toward the church. Richard says that when we prayed as a family that God would remove the spirit of Adventism from our hearts and replace it with His Holy Spirit, that was the moment he KNEW he was born again. God confirmed that personal surrender powerfully. it's just one more truth God is asking us to acknowledge. Truth is painful at first, but when we act on it and allow God to heal us, we are set free. He is faithful! He has rescued us from a false prophet and a false gospel. It is absolutely amazing to be the recipient of the love and mercy of such a God! Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 712 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: Colleen, I don't want to be antagonistic, but watch out for generalizing too sharply here. I do know Adventists who are staying inside but do know clearly about the New Covenant (until God calls them out) and are not in the least concerned about being lost. Unquote: Well, lets get a little antagonistic for just a minute, I’m sure that won’t break up the forum or make us love each other any less, now that’s o.k. isn’t it Ramone? If I wasn’t fond of you I wouldn’t do this. So no one take this as antagonism toward a brother. I just want to look at it from the view on the conservative side, I think Ramone and I fit that description, I am more conservative in my thinking than he is. Lets take the person who remains inside clearly knowing that the group he remains with teaches a false doctrine. To my conservative mind that amounts to assent to that doctrine although he may never say a word to uphold the doctrine, he may even teach grace where he can and he may do a little good by doing so. Now he may be staying for one or many reasons such as wife or husband or for whatever reason. My conservative mind begins asking questions immediately, where is his financial support going? Where is the bulk of his time going when he is ask for this or that by his fellow Adventist? When he shows up on Saturday in a warm body he shows up to stand in a false church alongside his Adventist neighbor and his very presence there say’s that this spirit that leads here is to be tolerated. Now he is among people calling himself a Christian among a people that call’s themselves Christian’s, but break it all down and what would you have to assent to in order to be called a Christian. My conservative mind says this: 1. Believe that Christ died and rose the third day. 1 Cor 15:1 and Romans 10: 9,10 2. Sola feida (faith alone.) 3. Christ deity. 4. Absolute and complete atonement for our sins at the cross. This is who I call a Christian, anyone else is just an usurper of the word, and I am not required to call him a Christian brother. He may speak in tongues, he may have two heads and drive a rolls, he may be handsome or he my be ugly as a mud fence dobbed with tadpoles but it depends on those four items as to whether or not I will admit he can be called a Christian to this conservative mind. It is very true that God’s Spirit strives with man but his Spirit will not always strive with man. We don’t know the day nor the hour when our time will run out, the man that stands in the congregation of the false profit may very well spend his last breath standing in the congregation of the false profit, so says the conservative mind. Now would the liberal call this “Dogmatic”? Probably. The more liberal mind has a point but also the more conservative mind has a point. What we both can agree on is that we can each meet at the foot of the old rugged cross, throw our arms around each other and weep with the thankfulness of heart for Jesus and we will, with tears forgive one another of our differences, focusing on Christ the eternal one. It is rather amusing to watch born again believers, what makes it amusing is this, the operation of our gifts, the preacher says preaching is where it’s at and he don’t want to do anything but preach, the person with the gift of mercy say’s no, mercy is where it’s at, the person with the gift of helps says no, helping out is where its at, we all oughta help everybody. I have found it funny to watch the antics knowing full well they are just operating the gifts. The person with the gift of mercy will swoop in and love them to death, the helper will take him a six course dinner, the preacher will comfort him out of the word and then frown on one another because each see’s the persons needs in a different way, meanwhile, the sick bloke gets loved, fed, and the word and the fellow gifted Christian doesn’t have a clue as to what is taking place. Now it really gets comical when the person has been gifted with several of the gifts because you can’t tell which side of the fence he may land on! Talk about mixed up, half the time he doesn’t know whether he is a teacher or a preacher or just what he is and the others can’t figure him out either! So one person may sound very conservative and even judgmental while another person may sound more liberal and even a little mealy mouthed when all the time his gifts are in operation full time. Its not like we can pick our gifts like picking the best looking apple off the tree, it is the Holy Spirit that gives these gifts severally and to whom and where he wills and it is not up to us to command the Holy Spirit concerning this although we may freely seek the gifts, at least that is what brother Paul said “earnestly seek the best gifts” but what do we consider the best gift? Even the gifts we consider the best gifts may be due to our particular gift and calling. The Gifts and callings of God are without repentance, in other words he is not going to take what he does back. Now I have used me and Ramone as an example and an example only, not that we differ greatly. Now I am not trying to hash anything really, these are just points. By the way Jeremy, thanks for that E-mail, worked perfectly and I am not surprised at all about what you said. My Dad was a mason, my younger brother followed him into that, but for the grace of God there go I. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5775 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, your observation about the gifts is amusing and so true. Also, your point about endorsing a system which one believes is false by staying is my personal soapbox, too. That very issue is why we decided we had to leave. We had to make our behavior match our beliefs. Otherwise, we could never expect our sons to be honest with us when we weren't publicly honest about our convictions. So, that's where we came down on this issue! Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 436 Registered: 10-2001 |
Bob, Thanks. It took me a while to realize what I understand now, that God seems to only intervene in His children. I used to have huge problems with this. Questions of why things, good or bad, happen so randomly (seemingly) to people. I remember being really upset with my ex-mother in law, an evil woman who seems to get by with everything and come out smelling like a rose. I asked God why she is so "lucky" when she is such a bad person. He said, "That may be the only reward she has." Wow, that put it in perspective. Jesse Duplantis said something recently that I had never heard of, or understood. He said that God gave man dominion over this earth, and while He is in control of everything, ultimately, we are the ones in control of this realm and that is why we have to pray, so that He can intervene. I had always wondered why we really need to pray to an all-knowing God. Anyways, it's late and I'm rambling. Night! Sabra | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 788 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bro River, I understand where you're coming from, and I understand the point about endorsing a system, etc. All I know is that some of my friends have been called by God to where they are now to do as He leads. Were He to send me in their stead, I would probably butt heads a lot quicker. I would say that the liberalness/evangelicalism of the churches could possibly play a factor in my friends ability to stay where they are for now (physically, but not spiritually, mind you), however, some have been called into conservative havens as well. Keep in mind that not everyone goes to church "to be fed". Some go to give, some to witness, some to intercede, and some to just be there and love. God has many weapons in His arsenal that preach the Gospel. Where I am now, I would not be able to be where they are. But that is why I am me and they are them, not me. On the other hand, He keeps putting the Osaka SDA church in my heart, and I know He's calling me back there sometime, but not today. P.S. for Jeremy -- I couldn't put Adventism on the same level as Buddhism because Adventism actually uses the Bible, whereas Shinto & Buddhism do not. But actually, perhaps the closest (and most ironic) comparison for Adventism is *Catholicism*. Both have incredible institutions and hierarchies, demonic spirits being accessed, corruption of the Gospel, and yet a very real amount of love at times and honest worshipers. Both need deliverance and Sabbath-rest in Jesus' finished work. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 715 Registered: 9-2006 |
Sabra’s quote: He sent me neighbors that were Baptist and I wish I could tell them now what a witness they were to me at only 7 or 8 years old. They were happy and we were not. They debated once with my mother and I could tell they were right, but tucked it away somewhere. I fell out of a tree and wasn't even scratched, almost was hit by a car a couple of times, almost drowned once........Jesus was always there. That is why I know on God's time table--which isn't time at all, I was always saved, even though I didn't make the decision until I was 32, He knew that day would come and He protected me from all of that evil. Now I didn’t go into election on my last post but Sabra seems to have touched on it here in a way so it might be interesting to see if someone has other views. Sabra, it does seem that God knows those who will believe in him even from the foundation of the world, God knows that when he calls we will answer that call and yet there is free will, the Bible plainly says that Jesus died for the sins of the world, that middle wall of partition has been broken down so that men are free to come to him, Jesus said that any who came to him he would in no wise cast out. I have to believe in election, I have no other choice, I was dog drunk when God reached down for me, it is not just me saying it, there are eye witnesses to these facts so it is somewhat a mystery. If he knows who will have faith in him he also knows who will not put their faith in him and will not accept him and yet I believe that his Spirit does strive with them. He wept over Jerusalem. He made another interesting statement: John 10:16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. Notice how he says that “They WILL hear my voice”, an interesting case is my uncle who was clearly “not saved” he drank and cussed every other word until he was 78 years old, one day he walked into the house and made this statement “Well, I went down to the church and made things right with the Lord” and I said “Well Pappy, they must have all fell over when you walked in!” I tell you it was just strange to go over to his house and see Bibles laying on the coffee table instead of beer can’s and when the church doors opened on Sunday and Wednesday he is there, not only him but my aunt too! And since then, my other aunt and some of my cousins, this just took place in 95’ or 96’ I tell you is is mysterious the works of God, he reaches down and delivers me of alcoholism when I have no plans at all about going to any church house and my uncle ups and just goes, don’t know a soul there, just walks in and announces repentance. The wisdom and grace of God is past finding out! My uncle and I had another friend who died in his bed of alcoholism, both he and his wife, unrepentant as far as we know and we knew them pretty well. There are people in Adventism that go to church every Sabbath and say “Lord, Lord” who will never know the true God I suspect, they have their God,s of flesh and will not relinquish them. Opportunity upon opportunity to come to God but stubbornly will not heed the cognitive dissonance, that still small voice that beckons. We look for God in the whirlwind and he is in the quiet, we look for him in the quiet and he is in the storm. The day we seek hard after him he will be found. We must seek him with all our heart and get everything out of the way, let nothing stop us, we must want him more than the world or anything in it. when this happens he will reveal himself to us but he will not share his glory with the things of this world nor any such as the likes of Ellen White nor any one else. If we try to lift ourselves up he will put us down, if we humble ourselves he will lift us up. So yes Sabra God knew you before the foundations of the world were laid, now people will question God and make accusations at him and call him unjust, they accused Jesus but God help the accuser, the clay doesn’t have any right to tell the potter how to form the clay or to question the wisdom of God or bring accusation. It seems to me the proponents of election and the proponents of free will are just seeing it from the two sides, both are correct but they stubbornly make a world view of one or the other and then squabble over it, neither can admit or submit that their may be more to God’s wisdom that is past finding out for our earthly infinite minds. Ramone has basically warned time and time again not to try to put God in a box and I do hear you loud and clear my dear brother and have heard you. Now I have probably written too much, if so forgive me, this thread has caused me to think and ponder much. I have pondered the things talked about on this thread even while working yesterday and the day before. River | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 437 Registered: 10-2001 |
River, God knows the beginning from the end. We have the choice, but He already knew the choice we would make and worked it all out accordingly. Seems so simple, not sure why people make it so difficult. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 471 Registered: 7-2005 |
Adventists are claiming to have a specific spirit, isn't it? They claim to have the "spirit of prophecy", and when the "prophet", Ellen White was alive, the claim was at origin a slightly different than it is today. In those days, they claimed that they have the Spirit of Prophecy precisely because they have a LIVING prophet, which makes the SDA church special and different from other churches who have only the writings of dead prophets (Bible). In spite of the fact that Ellen White died, the church had not renounced its claims of having the "spirit of prophecy", without having a living prophet. The SDA church survived the disappearance of their prophet, and I think that the reason is precisely found in the words of Ellen White
As I said on another thread, Ellen White never dies, she's alive, her words are alive and have power to keep adventists together, both the evangelical and the historical, traditional parts of adventism having something in common which is more powerful than the differences between them. At first sight, evangelical adventists believe a different gospel, almost antithetical to the historic, traditional adventist gospel, perfectionism. What can be more important and, so to speak, more central and foundational than the gospel? The difference regarding the identity of the gospel, in the interior of a house, will bring a division which will demolish the house, a house divided cannot stand. But surprisingly, the SDA church stands, and even if there are a lot of tensions regarding the gospel, the points which are uniting adventists are stronger enough to have more power than the centrifugal effects of a war between the gospels. How can this be? My explanation is that the differences between the gospels are not as huge as may appear, because the unifying forces of the adventists specific doctrines (like Sabbath, IJ, soul sleep, Ellen White) define the gospel. For example, the evangelical adventists are willing for the sake of the gospel, to modify the Sabbath significance close to the point of having no role in salvation. I commend them for this attitude, even if I disagree with the method. They are aware that sabbath as it was initially presented in the historic adventist message was legalistic, if not entirely, at least partially. The problem, in my thinking, is the attitude of trying to save what you know is wrong, or partially wrong. The evangelical adventists end with being in unity with the historic adventists around secondary issues which are given more importance to be kept in high esteem. Evangelical adventists are united in spirit with historic adventists based on the adventist heritage which they share in common with those who have a different gospel, at least, on paper. This raises the question of what force is behind all this situation, a force which is able to make primary things secondary and secondary things primary, and keep an entire church away from fragmentation. It's fascinating, how, with a lot of exposure to the true gospel, adventism has enough life to survive to the attack of the power of salvation, without breaking in pieces. In my view, Ellen White was right, she is alive, her words are alive, and SDA church will not change because of her spirit, the spirit behind the church. Her influence never dies, and the gospel will be always be looked as secondary compared to Ellen's heritage, doctrinal, spiritual, cultural. Jackob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5780 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jackob, that is a fascinating analysis. I've never looked at it quite that way before: Ellen's words are alive, and they have the power to make all types of Adventists rally around the SECONDARY things instead of the Primary THING! This sentence is really insightful: "It's fascinating, how, with a lot of exposure to the true gospel, Adventism has enough life to survive to the attack of the power of salvation, without breaking in pieces." Thanks for the quote above. I'm not sure I've ever read it before. Ellen makes a powerful claim for herself—one never acknowledged when people try to downplay her inspired status as a true and canonical prophet. Colleen |
