| Author | Message | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 376 Registered: 5-2004 |
I just got off the phone with a very dear friend for whom I've been praying diligently for the past 3 years that God would remove the blinders of Adventism. She and her family so desperately need to experience freedom and coming to know God more fully. She, on the other hand, just returned from a visit to another friend during which they had several Bible studies. From what I could gather as she was relaying this to me, is that it's a new way of reinterpretting Adventism so that all the fundamental truths are still truths, (if you can call them that) but so that there's a new angle which allows the believer to step away from the hitches of traditional Adventism. I will list a few points she made. One thing that stood out clearly was that all of this "information" they gleaned from Desire of Ages which is their "study manual" next to the Bible. Oh what that woman is responsible for... - Satan, Michael, and Jesus were all equal in Heaven. This enabled Satan to have a strategic position when he tried to win Heaven over. And it's his lies about God that got us into this whole mess. It's because God is proving to the universe His validity that He allows us to go on, and allowed Jesus to come and die to show us the love of God. - Jesus came to save us from our sins. While this is a clitche, it is still truthful because the Bible uses these clitches. In actuality, why would it make any sense for God to create a set of rules to observe, then sentance humanity to death for not observing them, then send His son to commit suicide to save them, when He created them in the first place? Jesus death and blood was not needed to save us, but to show us the love of God. - We know that "God is love" (1 John 4:8) and in 2 Cor 13 we see what love is. One of those things is loosely "love does not keep record of wrong" (I can't seem to find this but I was taught this version growing up). Henceforth, logically God wouldn't keep records of our wrongs. This makes the "books" of the IJ unnecessary in heaven and what they really are are the records in our heads. God's justice and wrath then are only His withdrawal from humans who don't accept Him which results in their death. The 1000 years in Heaven then becomes about us validating God to the universe. Since Desire of Ages says that Christs death was to prove to the angels in heaven that God was actually just. - They believe that all Christianity is under the power of the lies of Satan in that there are 20 some lies he tells about God. (I didn't manage to get a list), but one of those lies is that Christs blood was needed to save us, rather than to just show us the love of God. There's a bit more that I'm forgetting at the moment but my mind is just reeling. Because we've been at conflict spiritually since Stephen and I left Adventism, I don't really feel like I can bring anything up, and besides, our views of the Bible and the Spiritual realm are so different when I try to bring something up it's impossible for us to even discuss it normally because our conclussions are so vastly different. My heart was praying the whole conversation for what I should say, and nothing came. I am so...so... I guess I'm really angry right now that Ellen was able to take someone who was floundering and yank them even farther away from the truth of the Bible. How is this even possible? I guess I feel a bit like a coward too for not calling her on the carpet and making a case for scriptural truth. I should have brought it up even earlier maybe, because I knew that she was searching for answers to adventism (though our answers weren't the correct ones) and that made her very gullable for this new idealogy. Sigh... | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 377 Registered: 5-2004 |
I'm not sure if I covered this clearly or not, but they believe that Christ died to show us what would happen to us if we don't listen to God. Through the OT He was trying to show them what would happen, but they didn't want to listen, so He paid the ultimate price to get their/our attention. It's by becoming like and mirroring the life of Christ that we gain more truth about God, and who He is, and that is what gives us life. On the counter end, it's because of our rejection of Him that He withdraws from us and that is the wrath of God. Him allowing us to our own end. oy vei! | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 255 Registered: 11-2005 |
Esther--while I was at Andrews, I was invited to a home Bible study that talked about this "new" view of Adventism. I attended it for a couple of weeks, and then eventually stopped going because even as an Adventist, I knew the arguments were REALLY out there. I guess this was always the question in my mind when I studied with them, what good does it do that He paid the ultimate price to "get our attention" and show us His love? What's our part? To just recognize that God did this nice thing? It doesn't make any sense. I guess it's comforting to think that our innate sinfulness wasn't bad enough to require Christ's blood and sacrifice, and that He just died to show us true love. Okay...so say that's true... Then what? What is our part? To recognize this ultimate true love and try to extend that out into our lives? It doesn't make any sense. I find it even more confusing that regular Adventism. Good example, Esther, of what happens when you try to find rationales and justifications for a false gospel and try to understand "truth" through human reasoning rather than through the Spirit and God's Word. Grace | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5606 Registered: 12-2003  |
Esther, what weirdness! Actually, what you are telling sounds like a composite of ideas I've heard from different quarters of Adventism. Actually, it reminds me a whole lot of a book I read by either Wieland or Short of the 1888 Committee. He said that Jesus' blood was not necessasry in order for sins to be forgiven. He also said the cross was Jesus' demonstration of how far mankind would go in order to "kill God", and it was Jesus' way of demonstrating the lengths to which He would go to show His love for sinful man. You're rightóEllen surely has a whole lot to answer for. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5607 Registered: 12-2003 |
Esther, I just want to add that you can rest about not knowing what to say. There is a person in my life with whom I have the same difficulty, but her "world view" is more pagan than Adventist. I've come to the conclusion that when I ask God for words and nothing "comes", I have to believe He is answering me. Sometimes people are not willing to listen and consider, and to bring up other understandings would result in pointless arguing. I know how frustrated and even guilty I sometimes feel after talking with said person, but I also know that I cannot talk about my own understanding of the gospel with this person at this time. I share your intensity, though, over the blasphemous assertions about Jesus' blood being unnecessary. I have chafed for a long time over the unquestioning acceptance of Ellen's declaration that the whole "problem" arose because Satan made false accusations about God. That is bunk! God is God, and He is sovereign even over Satan. Satan has not convinced the world that God is unfair. Satan has deceived much of the world, but frankly, the issue is not God's reputation, as the Great Controversy says. The issue is SIN. Talk about deflecting people's attention away from what they need to see: their own depravity and intrinsic helplessness and unworthiness. God is rescuing them from themselves. He is not playing some cosmic charade to convince the universe that He is just. Frankly, this idea makes me really angry, too, Esther! (Calm down, Colleen...) Colleen | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 173 Registered: 8-2006  |
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend last week. He said there is a new SDA church in Grand Rapids, the name of it is..."Hope in Revelation" I asked if it says SDA anywhere and he said "no." It looks like they are getting crafty and slippery  | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3512 Registered: 3-2004  |
That is like the SDA church 5 minutes from me. It is called "Living Water Fellowship". I know the Adventist minister there and his wife It has no sign on it that it is Adventist. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1020 Registered: 4-2000  |
Wow, here is a quote from Ellen White worth sharing with your Adventist friends: "The New Testament does not re-enact the law of the tithe, as it does not that of the Sabbath; for the validity of both is assumed." The Faith I Live By, page 244. Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 630 Registered: 9-2006  |
I assume somebody is going to send me a thousand bucks and a ticket on Lutran Airlines. River, page 246. Dianna, there are many churches that do not have the denominational indicator on them, look in the phone book and see where they are listed. River | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 523 Registered: 3-2001 |
River, Iwas thinking the same thing when I read the posts about the Church names. I think Dianna and Timmy may be having a visceral reaction to the common tactic in Adventism of not revealing a denominational affiliation as a means of deception. However, I agree with you that its a fairly common practice for churches not to do it. I think we have to give them the benefit of the doubt here. In a way, its refreshing not to see the denominational name given such prominence--as long as its being done for the right reason. I do have to say that the "Hope in Revelation" kind of took me back a little because it's kind of a double entandre. Are they highlighting the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" or are they saying their hope is "the revelation of end time events?" I have my suspicions. | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 174 Registered: 8-2006 |
Doug222, I am not sure what you are trying to say. I most definitely believe they are trying to be deceptive. While still a member we put on a Revelation seminar at the local Holiday Inn. There was a great effort put forth to conseal our identity. We were told specifically, if asked, to say that we were "Christians." Calling a church something other than what they are is no different than those meetings. Just think if the LDS church called their church, "Grace in Christ" then not let on until you were indoctrinated? | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 526 Registered: 3-2001 |
Sorry if I wasn't clear Timmy. I was saying that under normal circumstances, it is not deceptive to not put a denominational label in the name, but most of us are a little suspicious of the tactic when it comes to Adventism. I too can tell some stories about how we were "groomed" for how to act and what to say in preparation for evangelistic meetings. Like River, I do know of many non-Adventist churches that do not reveal their denominational affiliation and I don'tthink there is anything suspicious about it. Doug (Message edited by doug222 on March 29, 2007) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3513 Registered: 3-2004 |
I just do not like it because it reminds me of the deception with the revelation seminars and stop smoking clinics and other deception practiced by the SDA church. You are right it is a visceral reaction. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 632 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well, I don't blame you guys for the reaction and my own suspicions go right along with yours Timmy. One time my cousin had a mule and every time he took the bridle off he would hit the mule across the head with the bridle and pretty soon the mule was leery of the bridle, I went down to get him one day and had to catch him with a rope. You guys been hit across the head more times than one so and your leery of the Adventist bridle and well you should be! Any time an Adventist don't post who he is, he is probably up to no good. I done had enough bridles slapped across my noggin I get nervous when my Adventist friends come by for a visit and if they want to give me something I get plumb walleyed and start shaking my head back and forth hard enough to rattle the rocks in my head. That mule ain't got anything on me. My only recourse is to hold a ham hock up before me, Holy water works for vampires, ham hocks works on Adventist. I tell you the situation is plumb down right Sad. One come at me one time and I threatened him with a possum laig. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5615 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're right, Riverówe have a sort of "post traumatic stress", hyperviligant reaction when we see Adventists up to all those old tricks we knew. One of the things that most amazes me is that now Adventists look at us like we have a hole in our heads when we comment on some of these things. Then they try to tell us that we never really understood Adventism, and our experiences just make no sense to them. They act as if after we leave Adventism, we completely forget everything we ever knew and experienced, and they feel a great need to "educate" us. It always amazes me that they talk to us about Adventism like they talk to people on the "outside" who never knew about Adventism. All the feinting, sleight-of-hand, hiding-the-truth-behind-acceptable-words that they use with "never beens" they try to use on us. I just shake my head and wonder if they think that somehow when we leave, a memory chip was taken out of our brains! It's oddness...but then, as Dale Ratzlaff said to me just this week as he was commenting on the numbers of angry letters in response to Proclamation!, "They say that one of the marks of a cult is how they treat you when you leave." I pray that God will expose and break the spirit of Adventism and set free those in bondage to deception and dishonesty. He is faithful... Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3515 Registered: 3-2004 |
AMEN to all you said Colleen. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 633 Registered: 9-2006 |
They are that way Colleen because Adventism and Ellenism and IJ'ism makes them dumbern a box a rocks. everthing passes right over their heads. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 634 Registered: 9-2006 |
Course my sense humor gets me all past most of the things that get to bothering me. Right now I'm on a roll so I better go to bed before I offend somebody. River | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 127 Registered: 1-2006  |
Colleen Your comment about Wieland and Short is interesting. I think it was you who mentioned the reaction of Jesus when Peter suggested the same thing--that it wasn't really necessary for Him to shed His blood for our sins. Jesus' response was stunning! He immediately recognized the source of this fine idea when He said "Get thee behind me, Satan." By the way, you can hear the same theology (the moral influence theory) for free at a church near my house! Bob | ||
| Nicole Registered user Username: Nicole Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2006 |
i recently asked the people who manage the website thebiblestory.com if they were affiliated with the adventist church. they said "no", but were very interested as to why i was inquiring. they continued to say that although they were not representing the adventist church, they did support the seventh-day sabbath. i thought it was weird that they would completely lie about it. and most religious organizations that do not have the name of the denomination on the title, website, etc. will gladly say "yes" they are affiliated with such and such church. the deceiving part is very unique to adventism, in my opinion. |
