| Author | Message | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 501 Registered: 6-2006  |
I listened to Mark Martin's audio "What does God have to prove" this morning. Great sermon! One thing that stood out to me today was the scripture verses he used about God knowing us, even before we were born. He used this verse, Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Which brought to mind these verses... Isaiah 49:1 [ The Servant of the LORD ] Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name. Isaiah 49:1-3 (in Context) Isaiah 49 (Whole Chapter) Romans 9:10-14 10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badóin order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who callsóshe was told, "The older will serve the younger."[a] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[b] Recently my FIL and I were discussing whether or not you're a person before you're born. Since I'm a mother and watched my babies on ultrasounds before I gave birth, I said we are people before we are born. My FIL said no, not until you breathe your first breath are you a person. Now that of course goes along with the SDA belief of not having spirits, but I want to know how can God *know* us and love us (or hate us) even before we are born if we don't have spirits or, for that matter, breath? What are your thoughts? I'm thinking of asking my FIL about it if it comes up again.  | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3507 Registered: 3-2004  |
I do not know how it happens and will not know until we are in heaven. I can just say, I am glad and thankful for Jesus. God knows everything and everyone. That is how he knows. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5596 Registered: 12-2003  |
Leigh Anne, I agree with you. There's an even deeper layer to this belief on the Adventist side: they can justify abortion because the fetus is not yet a viable person. When I realized that people had spirits separate from the body that were not breath, I had to change my mind about abortion. As an Adventist, although I didn't see abortion as a flippant or easy "choice", I did not see the true problem with it. If that baby had not yet breathed and begun its lifeóespecially if it was early enough not to be viable outside the wombóhow could we condemn abortion? I see the issue so completely differently now. What dies is not cells. What dies during abortion is a "savable" human being, just as much a human being as one already born. The details about the maturity of the body are irrelevant. The spirit is the spirit, and the spirit is what sets humans apart from animals. So, Leigh Anne, I believe you're definitely on the right trackóand you can just know in the back of your mind that your FIL's argument undoubtedly refers, in his own head, to issues surrounding abortion, too. Colleen | ||
| Nicole Registered user Username: Nicole Post Number: 53 Registered: 4-2006 |
again, how sad to grow up not understanding that God knew us before we were born. how special we are in the eyes of God. more special than the love even our own parents have for us (as a mother myself, that is hard to comprehend). we are all unique and were chosen by God. i assumed SDA were against abortion, but over the years i noticed that bringing a child into the world is definitely a choice for them (i have witnessed it in my husband's family). how sad. | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 264 Registered: 2-2006 |
The SDA church in Austin, Tx. paid for my non-Christian friend to get an abortion in the 4th month. (A baby is fully formed, then)They were trying to teach her Adventism at the same time. It didn't stick. When I was older than 19/20, I realized how horrific this was--A Christian church helping someone get an abortion. My young husband, at the time, could not have children and we begged my friend to give us her baby. But, no, 'Christians' helped it die. It still boggles my mind and makes me angry over the murder of that baby,and it has been 25 years. God help the men, who paid for the death, and the women, who agreed. I hope they have repented, by now. To be fair, my SDA family does not believe in abortion. Cathy | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 865 Registered: 1-2003 |
I know of several SDA's that have had or have helped fellow SDA's have abortions. They saw no problem with it. I was an SDA at the time and was horrified. I appealed and begged them not to do it...no one listened. They didn't see a problem breaking the 6th commandment as long as they keep the 4th! | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 502 Registered: 6-2006 |
My FIL has been pro-choice for as long as I've known him, but I didn't put 2 and 2 together until just recently. It's amazing how denying that we have spirits can effect so much. I never thought too much of it until I heard Colleen's audio on Mark Martin's site. How can anyone read the Bible and NOT see that we have spirits??!! It's like saying that Jesus is not in the Bible. Backward agnosticism. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 866 Registered: 1-2003 |
Found this on Revival Sermon's .org...an SDA pastor's site: Last week's lesson made reference to the "fetus" rather than unborm baby. Maybe I'm making too much out of a word but the very use of the word, IMHO, has a pro abortion undercurrent. Perhaps the author was just using common societal language but it carries with it a tone that the baby is less than human and less than a baby. I find it very interesting that we rarely if every refer to unborm puppies as fetuses. When we refer to momma cat we do not say that she is carrying fetuses or to the that effect. Scripture refers to the unborn as a baby. The old "its not a baby because it cannot survive on its own" does not hold up. Neither can the baby survive on his own when he is born or when he is a six months old. All said, I believe this was a very thought provoking lesson. Our little group in a neighboring church had much friendly dialog though I was not impressed to touch on the fetus issue as other topics were more prominent having more to do with the lesson topic. It is amazing how good a lesson can be when there is good dialog even among three or four persons. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5598 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Pheeki, many Adventists do oppose abortion. The church, however, while affirming life in its official statement, does leave room for individual choice and does not take a stand against it. That being said, I know some people who made painful choices to abort severely malformed babies early in the pregnancy which were not able to live if they even came to term. I cannot condemn their decisions; they were made between themselves and God, and I would not want to cause them even more pain by imposing any personal judgment on them. In the big picture, however, the problem of not believing that a person has a spirit leads to unbiblical views of life, sin, salvation, the nature of man, and the nature of Christ. Approving abortion for healthy babies is only one of the horrifying results of this foundational Adventist belief. Colleen | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 521 Registered: 3-2001 |
Colleen, are you up for doing a little education? Can you elaborate what you mean by these statements? Thanks. Doug | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 505 Registered: 6-2006 |
I do know an SDA who had two - and her parents consulted a senior pastor before they consented to it. The abortions were for no other reason but that it was during a time when she was a teenager and had been sneaking around with a boyfriend. I was surprised to hear about it, but after reading these posts it sadly makes sense why the pastor would approve. (Message edited by grace_alone on March 27, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5600 Registered: 12-2003 |
Deep breath. OKóI'll try to do this in a nutshell. The articles here will help explain my understanding: http://rtinker.powweb.com/Proclamation2006_NovDec.pdf http://rtinker.powweb.com/Proclamation2004_SepOct.pdf http://rtinker.powweb.com/Proclamation2006_JulAug.pdf In the first link, the article I'm referring to is, "If What You Believe Is Not Biblical, Would You Want to Know?" In the second link, it's the cover story (which I believe you've read), and in the third link, the article is "In Adam or In Christ". I'll try to summarize: If a human does not have a spirit separate from the body, then human life is actually no different from an animal's. It dies and disappears from existence; nothing survives death. If there is no spirit, then sin is physical/genetic. We may SAY we're separated from God, but what does that really mean? It's theoretical, not literal. Salvation, then, means that we have divine help to get our sinful lusts and temptations under control. If sin is primarily physical, then our response to it must necessarily be to discipline ourselvesóeven if that discipline means asking God for help to "overcome". The focus is still on getting free from sin inorder to be holy, thus "safe to save". We have to show proper intent in order to be eligible for salvation. If man has no spirit, his nature is simply animal. He is mortal, and out of His (capricious) goodness God decides to pick our species and save us, even identifying with us. If man has no spirit, then Jesus, as God incarnate, truly has no advantage we don't have. Without a spirit, there is no alternative but that he inherited Mary's sinful genes and had "propensities" to sin. His sinlessness, therefore, was in His choosing to keep the law and using God's help to resist temptation. He was primarily our exampleóone we could look to as proof that it was at least theoretically possible for us to keep that law and perfectly utilizse divine power to bring our sinful flesh into submission. If people have spirits, however, then sin is about that spirit dying in Eden. Adam acted outside of faith, and from then on mankind was born in Adam's image instead of God's (see Gen 5:1-3. A great article in the March/April issue of Proclamation by Richard Peifer will address this issue). With dead spirits, we are born literallyónot just figuratively or punitivelyóseparated from God. Our nature as humans is NOT, at this point, "God's children". We are by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3). Only when we place our faith in Jesus and receive the new birth from His Spirit in us do we become children of God (Romans 8:13-20 or so...!) Salvation is no longer an issue of our overcoming sin and finding a way to be acceptable to God. Rather, it is about another Adamóanother human who is actually ABLE to choose to respond to God only by faith to become the new head of the human race. He becomes our sin (He doesn't just "take" our sin 2 Cor 5:21) and becomes a curse for us (Gal 3:13) and forever nails sin and the law with it's curse to the cross. "It is finished" means sin is finished, and it's total power over humanity is now broken. Now, through faith in Jesus, we can approach the Father by accepting the Life of Jesus made possible by His resurrection. When we accept Jesus' life, we also receive His forgiveness. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13-14), and we now have that original human nature restored to us: we are one with God through the Holy Spirit indwelling us and bringing our dead spirits to life. Only in Christ are we, again made in the image of God instead of in the image of Adam. If humans have spirits, then the incarnate Jesus, conceived by the Holy Spirit, was the only human ever born spiritually alive without need for the new birth. Even John the Baptist had to have the Holy Spirit come upon and indwell him. Jesus was intrinsically alive from the moment of conception. He was the Second Adam because He was the only human ever born who had the capability of responding by faith to God. He had no separateness in Him. He did nothing apart from total dependence upon God . He didn't even speak apart from what God told Him to speak. He lived the life of faith which Adam failed to live, and He qualified to take God's wrath for all our sin. Does this help? Feel free to ask more specific questions...I don't know how much I can answer, but I love exploring these things... Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 891 Registered: 8-2004  |
The SDA church's stand on abortion is a relatively new thing. Back in 1973, when abortion became legal in this country, SDA hospitals were some of the first to jump right in. In fact participation in an abortion procedure became required for graduation in Adventist medical institutions right after the law was passed. Anecdotally, it was said that when a girl who thought she needed an abortion went to a catholic hospital the hospital would refer her to an SDA hospital across town. The church seems to have gotten around 'endorsing' abortion by saying that SDA hospitals are not 'official church organs'. One local pastor dad talked to when mom was experiencing a difficult fourth pregnancy seemed first in favor of abortion (after all you have three kids, and that's quite enough to put through SDA school!), and then to recall that Andrews had suggested it's students just not talk about abortion . . . and that he had a pressing appointment he was late for. Another SDA pastor agreed that abortion was wrong, but said he preferred to keep his job . . . and that perhaps it was dad's burden to rouse the Adventist conscience on that instead. Dad was not comforted. Ironically dad did finally find comfort and hope from a pentecostal preacher: who, upon hearing mom's situation and dad's fears, promptly said, "Let's pray" and proceeded to claim the life of both the mother and the baby and to ask for strength and courage for dad. (The baby was born healthy, and mom did get well. Over the course of the next few years she had 5 more children who are also all well, and mom is still going strong.) Before long mom and dad both removed their membership from the SDA church because they did not want to support abortion by their membership. It was quite a few years (and several detours) before they came to see that the 'distinctive doctrines' of the SDA church were also wrong. It is interesting that the SDA church finally has come out and said it discourages abortion. I wonder if that has affected church practice in any way? Blessings, Mary | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 253 Registered: 11-2005 |
Leigh Anne--I think you touched on the other layer of why Adventists aren't necessarily opposed to abortions, especially in certain situations. There is so much shame associated with "visible sin" (pregnancy being one of those very visible sins), not to mention shame in general when it comes to sexual issues. So when a situation arises where it could be potentially embarassing, and then you combine that with the lack of understanding the spirit, the natural justification of abortion results. I actually know of several Adventists (pastor families included) who don't see an overt problem with abortion, and actually see it as the "greater good" in certain situations. I know, for me personally, this is an area that I've definitely changed my opinion on. Before, I would have never said that I was "pro" abortion (I always saw it as somewhat of a sad thing), but I actually prided myself in being pro-choice. Afterall, I figured, the ultimate decision only really affects the mother, so it should be the mother's decision. And scientifically, I rationalized, it's just flesh. Since I have come to better understand the human spirit, and realize how because humans have a spirit that never dies, and can experience eternal salvation, it has completely reshaped my view of abortion. I now understand why Christianity for the most part has such a strong stance on pro-life (I never understood before why Christians always made such a big deal out of it). Now, as a born again Christian, I see that we are not just a product of sex. We are created by a sovereign God who longs to make our spirits alive in Him. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb." Psalms 139:13 | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 625 Registered: 9-2006  |
Believing the Adventist way about that brings on huge problems for the Christian, we believe we are saved now and evermore, to believe the Adventist way would mean that we would once again become separated from him accept in his memory. So then what would we be born again into? We are alive in Christ and Christ will never die any more. The Holy Spirit indwells us, Christ will never leave us, not for a second. As I say it brings on huge problems. River | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 254 Registered: 11-2005 |
River--As an Adventist, that term "born again" was just a metaphorical type of phrase for me. I considered "being born again" as a revival type of thing that happened over, and over, and OVER again as I would experience certain spiritual "highs". And not only did I feel as if it was something that I experienced over and over again, it was something I HAD to experience over and over again to keep right in God's eyes. Don't ask me how I understood the whole Nicodemus thing...all I know is that I really didn't. I saw it as a nice story, but it never had any theological significance to me except that being born again was necessary (only my understanding of what it meant to be born again was skewed). You're right, this understanding causes serious problems. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 626 Registered: 9-2006 |
I used to get under the anointing of the Holy Spirit and I would get to thinking I was hot stuff, then it seemed as if the Holy Spirit would all but disappear from my life and I would go through a dry spell and the world would seem so drab. I would think it was because of imperfection in my life, the truth was I always had the imperfections even while I was under the anointing of the Holy Spirit. Now when I go through a dry spell I know to stand on faith, the promises of God and to know that he will never leave me nor forsake me. I know now to stand steady and to wait upon God. I have to look back at those times and smile at the immaturity. Although it is a struggle to write without the anointing of the Holy Spirit I know that I must stand by faith and believe in him under all circumstances. I know that he will be with me forevermore and you also. I have to come up with my article for next month and every word I am writing seems so drab and without life, but I know that he will aid me. Right now I am hurting but I know that Joy will come in the morning. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5601 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dear River, What you have just written is profound. Jesus is with us and in us even when we feel dry. When we have been born from above and made alive by the Holy Spirit, our feelings are not an indication of our position in Christ. We can KNOW, no matter what we are experiencing, that our lives are hidden with Christ in God (Col 3:3). His Spirit is just as capable of helping us write what He wants us to write whether we feel intense or dry. When we belong to Him, He works out His will through us even when we feel "off". I have had to realize that even when I feel completely uninspired and without insight, when I ask God for His wisdom and words, I have to believe that He is honoring my request and being faithful to Himself, and that whatever "comes out" is His answer to me. I have to remember that I can't expect that God will give me feelings of "inspiration" necessarily. But He will glorify Himself, and He can do that whether or not I feel "inspired". Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5602 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mary, thanks for sharing the story of your mom. Very insightful and sadóbut it tells us something important about this common heritage we share called Adventism! Grace, I used to feel as you did about abortion. I never would have imagined how much my world view would change as I began to understand that we have spirits and that God is sovereign over life and death. What a relief, actually! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3510 Registered: 3-2004 |
Grace and Colleen, I used to feel as you two did about abortion. After I was born again, and I learned of the spirit that God gave to everyone, I saw then the value of the human life as a fetus. God knows us before we are born. That is incredible. I thank everyone on this forum for enlightening me on this subject. God put you here for a reason and I thank Him and you. Our God is truly awesome. Diana |
