| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 507 Registered: 3-2001 |
Hello, most of you do not know me. Those of you who do, may not remember me. My name is Doug and I left the SDA Church about 5 years ago. FAF was instrumental in helping me with my transition. I have only dropped in sporadically in the last couple years. I have finally reached the point in my life where I am not consumed with Adventism (or with being a former Adventist)ówell at least on most days, and am comfortable not having it as a major part my identity any longer. I would say it took a good three years for this to happen. God is still working with me albeit on a much more personal level these days. I think initially, he was just showing me the lies that I had believed, as of late he has been revealing more and more what he wants to do for and in me. I am just so thankful that we serve a god that moves at our pace and reveals himself as weíre ready to receive him. I have some thoughts that have been rolling around in my head that I need to share and get some feedback from. Unfortunately, many Christians who have not been raised with legalistic baggage cannot understand why stuff like this would even be an issue, and Christians who have come from those backgrounds can be somewhat dogmatic when it comes to raising questions of faith. Instead of reasoning together, theyíd prefer to either dismiss you or resort to the ìteaching mode,î telling you how it really is. I know I can always depend on my friends from FAF, to listen with an open mind and give honest but thoughtful feedbackóeven if we donít all agree. Anyway, having said all of that, one of the truths that he has revealed to me recently is the significance of the body, soul, and spirit. My understanding of this topic is still evolving, so if there is a discussion about this on FAF that would be beneficial, Iíd appreciate a link. God has revealed to me that we are more than ìBody + Spirit (or Breath) = a Living Soulî as I was previously taught in Adventism. Its not that I had continued to hold on to this teaching, but that I hadnít given much thought to what to replace it with. As it related to the state of the dead, I was willing to admit that different views can be supported in scripture and accepted the fact that I donít (and still donít) understand the topic thoroughly. However, what God is revealing concerning the body, soul, and spirit has helped me to see that there are some much more important implications than just where a person goes when they die. First, let me tell you what I now believe. We each have a body, a soul, and a spirit. The body is of course the physical or material part of me that people see. It is the way that I interact with the world around me. I also have an immaterial side that is comprised of both my soul and my spirit. My soul is the sum of all my thoughts, feelings, emotions, and my will. It is my personality, and what makes me uniquely me. It is the way that I interact with the world around me. Lastly, I believe that within the immaterial part of me is my spirit. This is the part of me that interacts with God and is the where I worship him. It is much more than just ìbreath.î Since God is the source of life, my spirit is the source of my life. I believe the Greek word is ìzoeî (or something similar to thatóI donít have my lexicon in front of me). It is the highest quality of life. In the Garden, God provided for the needs of all three parts of man. He provided for his body with food (and the like). He provided for his soul with a companion. And he provided for his spirit by meeting with him on a regular basis. After the fall, that spiritual connection was broken, and man was cut off from Godóthe source of life. His spirit was vacated. This is why God said that ìin the very day that you eat of the fruit you will surely die.î He didnít say, you will die someday, or you will begin to die. He said ìin that day, you will die.î You see death does not occur when the body no longer has breath. Death occurs when the soul is no longer connected to the spirit (the life source). As soon as Adam and Eve sinned, they died spiritually. Their bodies and souls still functioned, but they did so apart from God (the source of life). They were in effect, similar to a ìlive Christmas tree.î Once it is chopped down, it has all the appearances of being alive, but really it is dead because it is cut off from the source of lifeÖand soon ìdeathî to its physical form will follow (when it shrivels up). However, for all intents and purposes, it was dead when it was cut off from the life source. In our ìnatural stateî we are much like that tree. No longer connected to the life source, we are ìspiritually deadî and are guided by our soul (thoughts, feelings, emotions, and will) and our body (the five senses). This is the hopeless state that all of us inherited from our father Adam. Sometimes it may feel satisfying, but ultimately it is self-centered. We are literally, ìdead men (and women) walking.î Weíre just waiting to die physically. Fortunately, God put a knowledge of him in our hearts (Romans 1:19). Heart is just another word for soul. This knowledge, makes us aware of our emptiness, and gently gives us a longing for the spirit connection. Itís this knowledge that we call free will. Without it, we would be pretty satisfied with our selfish existence. Instead of having free choice, we would be enslaved to our sinful life. As the Apostle Paul says, it is God that works in us both to will and to do his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13). The ìlongingî could also be called the ìGod shaped void.î So, we are all born of the flesh and are spiritually dead, but when we are born again, we are born of the spirit (John 3:5). By claiming the blood of Jesus, all of our sins, past present and future are forgiven (Hebrews 10:10), paving the way for our spiritual rebirth. Our spirit now reunites with Godís spirit and we are no longer driven by our soul (thoughts, feelings, emotions, and will) and body (five senses), but by our spiritówhich houses the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19). This miraculous transformation takes place as we allow the word of God to be a two edge sword that divides between soul and spirit, bone and marrow (body). Hebrews 4:12. It is literally, spiritual surgery. After the surgery, we are a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17), although we have to grow up just like any baby. We still have our flesh, but it is no longer our master. The Spirit is our new master. (Romans 6:13-18). Just as when we were in our natural condition, we were sometimes capable of doing good things (but were still sinful), in our spiritual state, we are sometimes capable of doing bad things (but weíre still righteous). Most importantly, the Holy Spirit becomes our teacheróour guide if you will, that helps us to become all that God created us to be. No longer do I need a strict code to follow. The possibilities are virtually limitless, as we experience life as we never dreamed possible before. Now, here is where I want to share why I think this discovery is significant. My brother, who I love very much, also was raised Adventist (of course) and until about two years ago was very entrenched. This is the same brother who one day explained to me that as we become more sanctified, we need grace less, until the one day we wonít need it anymore. Well he has now started to see some of the gaping holes in Adventist theology and has left the church. Unfortunately, he has become somewhat of an agnostic. He says that he is not even sure that he believes the Bible anymore and that religion seems to be a tool that is used to control the masses. He believes that the whole idea of salvation seems patently unfair. He says, ìGod wants our love and our loyalty, and then dooms us to hell if he doesnít get it.î He says that doesnít sound like free will to him. Right now he is very angry. Iím okay with his anger, and even more importantly, I think God is okay with his anger. But I think what we were taught about the body, soul, and spirit in Adventism plays a big part in why he feels the way that he does. Contrasting what I have learned about the body, soul, and spirit, is the Adventist position. In it, the soul is the combination of the body and the Godís breath. When these two entities are put together, a person becomes a unique personóa living soul. When these two entities are separated at death, the person ceases to exist (no more soul). Notice that according to this teaching, neither Godís breath nor the body (which is an empty shell) has anything to do with the personís individually. Therefore, the only part of a person that is uniquely them is their soul or their heart. Although there are a number of verses throughout the Bible (especially Psalm 139) that speak to my uniqueness and to my being known by him, and part of a plan that existed long before me, I am also faced with the truth that I was also created with a heart (soul) that is deceitfully wicked. Thatís quite a dichotomy. Am I unique and special or am I defective? At the new birth, Adventist theology teaches that Christ comes into my heart and makes me into a new creation, empowering me to be obedient to Godís commandments. The clear implication here is that I was created defective and needed to be remade into the obedient person that God really desired. So, God recreates me and presto, I suddenly become the person God always wanted me to be. I can see where my brother would deduce from this that we become nothing more automatons brought about by an egotistical God. I remember singing the words to the song, ìLord, help me to hold out until my change comes.î I always had visions of the Holy Spirit coming in and making me into someone different than who I am/was. Unfortunately that change never, happened and I stayed who I always was. I think this is why many Adventists become so frustrated and end up leaving. Try as they might, they can never stop being who they are. The subtle message here is that God doesnít want me to be the unique person that I am, but someone else. Itís almost like the parent who says, ìWhy canít you be more like your brother/sister,î and then sets about to make you into that. Is it any wonder that many of us have battled issues of shame for most of our adult lives? It really comes down to making sure we all adhere to a narrowly defined set of rulesóessentially putting the Spirit into a box.. You see, as much as they say that the new creation empowers us to keep Godís commandments, the truth is that no one except Jesus has ever been able to keep them. So it sets a standard that none of us will ever be able to keep. We end up with four options. We can delude ourselves into believing that we are measuring up (usually accomplished by comparing ourselves to others); we can try harder, which produces lots of shame and guilt for not measuring up, or we can become discouraged and just give up. None of these choices creates much joy. The final choice is to repent (think again) of this false teaching and embrace the truth about God. He really is crazy about usójust the way we are. The truth is that we are exactly who God created us to be. Our soul (thoughts, feelings, attitudes, will) is not the problem. The problem is in whose hands we place our soul. Just as a knife can be an instrument of beauty in the hands of a master carver and a weapon of destruction in the hands of a street thug, so can the same soul be a source of conceit and self-centeredness when led by the flesh, but a conduit of love and grace under the guidance of the Spirit. Unfortunately, this is a truth that gets hidden under the heresy that our spirit is nothing more than breath. That heresy only produces more self effort and frustration, whereas the truth gives us freedom and life. I appreciate anyone who has made it to the end of this long post and appreciate any comments or feedback. If I am off track, I am certainly open to hearing about it. In His Grace Doug222 | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3460 Registered: 3-2004  |
I made it though your post and this is how I sum it up. It has to be simple for my simple mind. God made us with a physical body, He breathed the breath of life into us and we have a spirit. That spirit with in us is what responds to God when He calls us. Through our spirit is how the Holy Spirit communicates with us and draws us near to God. That is how I understand this in a nutshell. There is a very good link to an article about the body, soul and spirit in one of the threads below. I do not remember which one. Maybe some one else does or you can find it. God you are awesome. Diana | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 247 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi Doug--it's nice to meet you! I really enjoyed your post. I thought your explanation of the body, soul, and spirit was very good and very easy to follow. I especially liked your Christmas tree analogy. I remember the first time I realized that we were born with dead spirits, and that when we are born again, our spirits come alive--wow! It was an amazing "aha" moment for me. I can relate so much to what your brother is struggling with. Like your brother, after I started seeing problems with Adventism, I also struggled with being agnostic. The very comments your brother makes, I have made. So I understand where he's coming from. I think you are onto something about a misunderstanding of the Spirit with why your brother (or others) may tend to struggle with agnosticism. It is definitely frustrating to be expected to "measure up" like you stated in the sibling analogy, and continue to fail miserably at it. And you're right, the Adventist belief does put the power of God's Spirit in a box. For me, I definitely dealt with the shame of not being able to do what I thought God expected me to do. I also lacked an understanding of God's sovereignty and plan for my life, and pretty much felt like God's good will should revolve around my best benefit. It was about me and not Him. But at the root of all of this was the pure fact that God didn't really mean anything to me. I have come to find that unless someone is born again, and made spiritually alive, a person can only superficially know God. A person may know who He is, and understand to some degree what He is about, and even know what God desires in our life, but without the presence of God living in us, we aren't capable of being connected to God in a real and convincing type of way. One of my biggest weaknesses is that I struggle with doubt. When I first had my conversion experience outside of Adventism, I would periodically worry about slipping into that agnostic phase that I so often slipped in and out of as an Adventist. And although my faith at times isn't as strong as I'd like it to be, I realize I don't really have to fear doubting the reality of God. Since I know (in my spirit) that He literally indwells me, He has become so real to me that there is no way I can doubt his existence. I may doubt other things, and falter in my faith, but the one thing that will always be real in my new life is the presence of God in me. Under the Adventist view, one is incapable of really experiencing that presence of God 24/7 because of a lack of understanding of the spirit. From an Adventist standpoint, God is merely an empowering source, not literally Life in us. Understanding the reality of the Spirit really makes all the difference in the world in how we relate to who God is in our life. Rather than an outside vague entity, God is literally a part of our very lives, influencing every aspect of it. You can't get much more real than that!! Grace (Message edited by snowboardingmom on March 10, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5522 Registered: 12-2003  |
Doug, it's really good to "see" and hear from you again! I also really enjoyed your post, and I think you're right about the significance of the spirit. I do believe the Adventist teaching breeds doubt, hopelessness, and agnositicism. I've come to believe that the Adventist teaching about "spirit" = "breath" is the foundational heresy that warps all of Adventism. The Adventist teaching that man is body + breath (and, as you state so well, this combination equals a "living soul" which means our uniqueness is essentially a chimera that disappears when we die) leaves one with no way to understand that God was literally truthful when he said Adam and Eve would die the day they ate that fruit. Adventists can only say that they "began to die". But, as you point out, they DID literally dieóspiritually. And the spirit is where the life of God resides in us. If "spirit" is merely "breath", then sin must be a physical phenomenon. I was taught that we "inherit" sin from Adam, and that over the millennia, our bodies have increasingly decayed because of sin, so that we are born with "inehrited tendencies to evil" that, apparently, come to us through out gene pool. Sin is physical. If sin is physical, then victory over sin must also be physical. Hence the need to keep the law. But if sin is spiritualóour spirit disconnected from God's Spirit so that we are dead in sin even though our bodies are aliveóthen "victory" over sin cannot be disciplining oneself to keep the law. It has to occur at the spiritual levelóand that's out of our capability because we are born spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-4). Our dead spirits cannot do ANYTHING good. This problem also leads to a heretical understanding of Jesus. Remember how we were taught that Jesus had no advantage we do not have? Excuse me...He never stopped being God! If sinlessness, however, is merely the ability not to break the law and do bad things, then Jesus' sinlessness meant he had better will power than we did. If sin is physical, we also have a problem with Jesus' human flesh which he inherited from Mary. Adventism has never arrived at a consensus re: Jesus' nature. Did he, or did he not, inherit Mary's sin? If sin is physical, then he MUST have inherited her decayed genetic material. What to do? How to explain Jesus' nature? I know that my very loyal, traditional SDA in-laws say that Jesus did not have a "sinful" nature, but he did have a "fallen" nature. His sinlessness was the result of "using" the Holy Spirit's power to perfectly keep the law. If, on the other hand, sinlessness is spiritual, then we have a very clear view of Jesus' sinlessness. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was the only human ever born who did not have to be regenerated by the indwelling Holy Spirit. He was born ALIVE! Yes, he definitely had an advantage over us! The Adventist teaching about "spirit" twists the truth about the nature of man, the nature of sin, the nature of Jesus, and consequently the nature of salvation. So here's JesusóGod the Sonówho takes a human body, but he is spiritually alive from the moment of conception. He, who was completely and innately sinless, gave up His life for us. He chose to take the experience of God's wrath and judgment when he was completely without sinócompletely connected with Godóand take the consequences for the human race. Then, because he was spiritually alive and was the Creator of life, he conquered death and gave all those who believe in Him His own spiritual life. Because of His blood and His sacrifice, He can offer us forgiveness when we trust Him, and our spirits become reconnected to God through the indwelling Holy Spirit. So yes, Dougóthe Adventist teaching about "spirit" is a deep heresy, and it leads people into hopelessness and despair. Biblical truth and reality, however, say that we have a spirit that can know God, and it is in that place that we experience Jesus. That spirit is what goes to be with Jesus at the time of our death if we are in Him. Colleen | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 508 Registered: 3-2001 |
Thank you Flying Lady, Snowboardingmom (isn't that an oxymoron?) and Colleen for your wonderful responses. I had shared some of these revelations with an intellectual friend of mine recently. He is supposed to be getting back with me to tell me why he has a problem with my conclusions. I know it has something to do with not believing that that our spirit was vacated at the fall. I also shared them with a another friend who is also a former. He "came out" at about the same time I did, but has held on to many Adventist beliefs as his foundation. As such, he can be a little schizophrenic (sp) at times. His response to this topic was no exception. It was truly a pleasure hearing you guys responses. FL and SBM, your confirmation of my musings was definitely a comfort. Its not that I need validation in order to accept what the Spirit is revealing, but it is good to find out that you're not crazy...if you know what I mean. Colleen, all I can say about your response is whoa! It pretty much knocked my socks off. Of course I have come to expect that from you. Well first, I had to go get my dictionary out to look up "chimera." <smile> Yes, it is an absurd creation of the imagination isn't it? I'll have to read your response a couple times, because you gave me a lot to chew on--far more than I bargained for. One thing in particular that stood out to me is your question of whether sin is merely a sinful phenomenon. I think I had arrived at the conclusion some time ago that the definition of sin is definitely more than just "the transgression of the law," as we learned to repeat from rote in all the evangelistic crusades. I had pretty much defined it as it as "disconnection from God," although when I arrived at that definition, it wasn't in the context of me having a dead spirit. I had never thought of the implications of it being merely a physical phenomenon. Hmm, so I think I just had a revelation. Let me try it out. Are you saying that the penalty that Jesus paid was spiritual death and not necessarily physical death? Afterall, Jesus also had a body, soul and spirit. As you pointed out, his spirit was alive. When he took on our sins, he willingly allowed that conection to be severed, resulting in spiritual death--afterall death is not the absence of breath, but disconnection from God. So, the two questions I have are, "what did Jesus mean when he said, 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." Also, what happened to Jesus' soul? Hopefully these questions aren't too elementary. Its just that I think the whole crucifiction may take on different meaning with this new understanding. NOTE: Colleen, I noted in another thread that someone said you wrote an article on this topic back in 2004. Is that on the site somewhere? Thanks. Doug | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 572 Registered: 9-2006  |
Doug, It seems to me you have a pretty good handle on the body, soul and spirit question. I enjoyed reading your post, especially the Christmas tree analogy. It reminded me of the scripture where Jesus said ìLet the dead bury their deadî, outside of him there is no life. In him we move and have our being. Paul put it this way in addressing the duality, if I might call it that, of the Christian life, Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (Strong's Number: 363 Greek: anamimnesko [an-am-im-nace'-ko] ajnamimnhvskw Word Origin: from and v verb Word Usage: call to remembrance 2, call to mind 1, bring to remembrance 1, remember 1, put to remembrance 1; 6 Definition(s): 1) to call to remembrance, to remind, to admonish 2) to remember, to remember and weigh well and consider) I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. We can only say that if we have been born again. Your brother needs prayer, it sounds to me the bitter root of deception has left him bound. As some have suggested there are some that come out of Adventism and still hold on to elements of that, I think the truth is that the whole root of Adventism is bitter (bad) and needs to be rejected. I have said this before and some have not agreed but here (FaF) is a place where we can agree to disagree and still love one another. I am reminded of the place in the book of Acts 19:13 where some Jews attempted exorcism by saying ìWe exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preachesî then the man whom the evil spirit had control off jumped on them and over powered them, it is not enough to have a earthly mental knowledge of Jesus but a spiritual knowledge else we are left with a week and indefensible position. I maintain that the Adventist position leaves them week and indefensible just as it has left your brother. While your brother may be without faith, you, by your faith in Christ can reach out for him. Sometimes we need to stretch our own faith to include the ones that are without faith and helpless. We have our faith in the living Christ and we can reach out in faith for our friends and relatives. I pray for your brother this morning that God will reach out with a mighty hand and sweep him into the fold. River | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 124 Registered: 1-2006  |
Great posts above! Colleen, yes, He was born holy (Luke 1:35)!! I've appreciated your comments so often. I praise God for all of you on this forum. Bob | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1728 Registered: 10-2004  |
Doug, it's great to see you posting again. I've seen some of your old posts from way back.  I see a couple things a little differently than you do. First, I see the Bible saying that there are two distinct kinds of "death"--physical death and spiritual death. Basically, the Biblical definition of death is "separation." So physical death is the separation of the spirit/soul from the body (see James 2:26). Physical death occurs when the spirit leaves/departs the body and goes somewhere else (for the saved person, it would go to be with Jesus; for the unsaved person, it would go to hell [Hades]). Spiritual death is what happened to Adam and Eve the day they ate the fruit--their spirits died. Spiritual death is a separation of the spirit from God. Adam and Eve's (and all of their descendants) spirits were no longer connected to God, and therefore did not have "life"--they were dead. But again, "dead" does not = non-existent as the SDAs teach. It means separation. So before we are saved, our dead spirits are still very much existent and active. (There are multiple places in Scripture where the spirits of unsaved people are described as being existent and active.) They are just separated from God and at enmity with Him. Our spirits are dead to God, but very much alive to sin (see Romans 6)--they are sinful and hate God and enslave us to sin. When the Holy Spirit regenerates us, and causes our spirits to be brought to life eternal--our spirit is then "born" (John 3:6). It is connected to God--alive to God and dead to sin. It is a new creation. Our spirit then loves God and righteousness. (Of course we still have sinful flesh to deal with.) So I wouldn't necessarily say that death is a separation of the soul from the spirit. Rather, spiritual death is a separation of the spirit from God, and physical death is a separation of the spirit/soul from the body. Since Jesus is God, He could never have a dead spirit that was at enmity with God. He has always been spiritually alive. He shed His pure blood for our sins and satisfied the wrath of God--but He was never spiritually dead. Since He IS God, He could never be separated from God. Jeremy | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 509 Registered: 3-2001 |
Jeremy, Thanks for your response. I think we're saying the same thing. At least as it relates to spiritual death. We are in agreement that spiritual death occurs when our spirit is separated from God's spirit. We are also in agreement that this is the condition of all humans since the fall. I think where there may be some confusion is that you did not define what you meant by spirit and soul. So, you described the spirit as "dead" or disconnected from God, but still operating, whereas I described the spirit as "dead" or disconnected and nonfunctioning while the soul and flesh is still very much active. I guess the question would be are you defining the spirit that is not connected to God as being the same as what I am calling the soul that is not surrendered to the spirit? Hopefully that makes sense. I think the important thing to realize is that we are using words to attempt to make sense out of a supernatural concept. Our word pictures are probably never going to perfectly describe the reality of the situation. Even in the Bible it seems as though terms like spirit, heart, and soul, are sometimes used interchangeably which can lead to some confusion. So I guess I have a couple of questions that I ned clarified. I'm not arguing against your point, just trying to unerstand. 1. Are we saying something materially different, or are we arguing semantics? 2. How would you define the spirit and the soul? 3. What Bible texts are you referring to where the spirits of unsaved people are described as being existent and active? 4. I agree that Jesus was always spiritually alive, but didn't he experience spiritual death at the cross when he cried to the father, "why has thou forsaken me?" Wasn't that the penalty of sin? Thanks again for your response. Doug | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 510 Registered: 3-2001 |
Jeremy, One other note. You mentioned James 2:26 as support for your definition of physical death. Its interesting you bring this verse up, because I was just looking at an Amazing Facts yesterday (while trying to understand this topic) and they used that same verse to support their definition of death. For the benefit of others, the verse says, "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." In context, I'm not sure if this verse is actually describing physical death. The passage is actually talking about describing the emptiness of faith without works. Given the context, I think this passage is comparing the emptiness of life without being connected to the spirit to faith without works. In both cases, the object (body and faith) still exists, but is lifeless. This is similar to a plant being cut off from the roots. Technically it is dead, although it still has the appearance of life. I'm not arguing your definition of physical death necessarily, just wanted to point out that I don't think this verse supports it. I'm definitely interested in your response to the above questions though. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5523 Registered: 12-2003 |
Doug, I believe that one aspect of confusion is the possible distinction between "spirit" and "soul". In fact, perhaps a majority of theologians today believe that the Biblical references to "soul" and "spirit" usually refer to the same thing. In many instances, the underlying Greek root is the same; in some instances, it is different. The New Bible Dictionary by InterVarsity Press discusses this distinction and the fact that while at one time most Christian theologians did subscribe to a three-part distinction, today scholars are leaning toward the idea that a human is really basically made up of a spirit and a body. Now, I'm not going to argue that the "soul" isn't something distinctóincluding the emotions and the will. In fact, this understanding does seem logical. In terms of Biblical usage, however, the terms are usually (with one or two notable exceptions) interchangeable. I'm not really sure that creating a "theology" out of a two-part or three-part "construction" is necessary. I believe that the important things for us to understand are that our spirits know God or they are alive only to Satan, as Jeremy explained aboveóand that the bodies we have in this life are mortal, and they die when the spirit leaves them. I've come to understand the spirit as being the part of ourselves that knows and relates to Godóand that it is the part of ourselves that is essentially "us". Our emotions and wills die when our bodies dieóat least as we perceive them on earthóbut as Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5, "we" live in mortal tents and go to be with the Lord when the mortal tent dies. I believe Jesus' body died, but His Spirit did not die. As He told the thief, he was to be with Him in paradise that day. He suffered the wrath of Godóof being separated from God's presenceówhile his mortal body was still alive. But He willfully gave His spirit to God after His suffering. His Spirit, as I understand it, was His identifiable essence. John 4:24-26, for example, identifies God as "Spirit". No body is necessary for God to have personality, reactions, will, etc. This same passage in John 4 says that true worshipers must worship God is spirit and in truth, because God is Spirit. (Truth is fact and knowledge perceived by the spirit and known by the mind as our minds are renewed by the Spirit; spiritual worship occurs in our spirits when we are united with God and yielding to Him.) You can read an article on this subject in a past issue of Proclamation here: http://rtinker.powweb.com/Proclamation2004_SepOct.pdf Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1012 Registered: 4-2000  |
"Humans are body and soul, in two genders. Each human being in this world consists of a material body animated by an immortal personal self. Scripture calls this self a "soul" or "spirit." "Soul" emphasizes the distinctness of a person's conscious selfhood as such; "spirit" carries the nuances of the self's derivation from God, dependence on him, and distinctness from the body as such." "Biblical usage leads us to say that we have and are both souls and spirits, but it is a mistake to think that soul and spirit are two different things; a "trichotomous" view of man as body, soul, and spirit is incorrect. The common idea that the soul is an organ of this worldly awareness only and that the spirit is a distinct organ of communion with God that is brought to life in regeneration is out of step with biblical teaching and word usage. Moreover, it leads to a crippling anti-intellectualism whereby spiritual insight and theological thought are separated to the impoverishing of both, theology being seen as "soulish" and unspiritual while spiritual perception is thought of as unrelated to the teaching and learning of God's revealed truth." "The embodiment of the soul is integral to God's design for mankind. Through the body, as was said earlier, we are to experience our environment, enjoy and control things around us, and relate to other people. There is nothing evil or corruptible about the body as God first made it, and had sin not come in, the physical ailing, aging, and rotting that leads to death as we know it would have been no part of human life (Gen. 2:17;3:19,22;Rom. 5:12). Now, however, human beings are corrupt throughout their psycho-physical being, as their disordered desires, both physical and mental, warring against each other as well as against the rules of wisdom and righteousness, clearly show." "At death the soul leaves the defunct body behind, but this is not the happy release that Greek philosophers and some cultists have imagined. The Christian hope is not redemption from the body but redemption of the body. We look forward to our participation in Christ's resurrection in and through the resurrection of our own bodies. Though the exact composition of our future glorified bodies is presently unknown, we know that there will be some sort of continuity with our present bodies (1 Cor. 15:35-49;Phil. 3:20-21;Col. 3:4)." [Excerpts taken from J. I Packer's excellent book entitled CONCISE THEOLOGY: A Guide to Historic Christian Beliefs; Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., pp. 74-75; 1993] Dennis Fischer | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 511 Registered: 3-2001 |
Thanks for everyone taking the time with this discussion. It is very helpful (even though a bit confusing at times). Colleen, the article you shared was a real eye opener in helping me to see some implications of the spirit being more than just "breath." I couldn't help but think as I read your desciption of the traditional adventist formula that according to them, I am nothing more than a physical body activated by God's special fuel (the breath of life). This is especially true since the components do not chage whether I am saved or lost, except that the Holy Spirit comes in to change my behavior. Anyway, I appreciate what folks are saying about us only having a body and a spirit (or soul) rather than all three. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I am truly trying to understand this. I guess I am not clear on why that distinction is so important. Two verses in particular come to mind that maybe someone could shed some light on. The first is Hebrews 4:12: "The word of God is quick, and powersul, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing assunder of soul and spirit and of the jjoints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intensts of the heart. Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:23: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Both of these verses appear to suggest that there is a soul and a spirit in addition to the body. Once again, my question is whether we are talking about a substantative difference or if it is merely a case of semantics and/or interpretation. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1730 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Doug, To answer your four questions: I basically agree with what Colleen said about soul and spirit--and you're right that it can get a little confusing/complex. I don't think we are just arguing semantics, however. Some Bible texts regarding the spirits of unsaved people are: Deuteronomy 2:30, 1 Kings 21:5, 1 Chronicles 5:26, and perhaps 1 Peter 3:18-20. Jesus' spirit never died, or else He would have had to have been born again (which would be like what the Word-Faith teachers claim). Also, the fact that He is God would make it impossible. Jesus was able to pay the penalty for our sins without suffering in hell for eternity, because He is infinite and His life was of infinite value--and so He was able to pay the infinite price for our sins and suffer infinite punishment by bearing our sins and dying on the Cross. Jeremy | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 512 Registered: 3-2001 |
Jeremy, Dennis, and Colleen, thanks for sticking with me on this discussion. You guys are helping more than you know. I certainly am getting more than I bargained for. Jeremy I just got it! i can't believe I missed it all this time. 1 Peter 2:24 and 1 Peter 4:1 both say that Jesus bore our sins "in his body." I had just brushed by those texts in the past, never thinking they had much significance. Now I see how important it is. I also now understand why Jesus told the father, "into thy hands I commit my spirit." I am embarassed to say, but I had some questions about exactly what was accomplished at the cross. It is amazing how significant this one point is. It does literally speak to the nature of man, salvation, and Jesus (as well as help to clarify what happens when a person dies. I'm not sure I still understand the significance of saying that a person does not have a soul and a spirit. It seems as though we're in agreement that a person has two parts, the material and immaterial. The immaterial is sometimes referred to as the soul and sometimes referred to as the spirit, and sometimes referred to as both. They are inseperable, but appear to have different functions. Correct me if I am wrong, but maybe the issue with separating them (in addition to the point that Packer made in the article Dennis provided) is that it causes confusion about what happens when a person dies. Anyway, I just wanted to say again how beneficial this discussion has been to me and how it is really opening my eyes. I am open to any other insight that others may have. I may have some additional questions as I continue to study. In His Grace Doug | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 579 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dennis, If the theory of a "trichotomous" view is incorrect and man is only two fold, How do you explain an Alzheimerís diseased patient, his mind is damaged, would you then say his spirit is damaged? I always thought of it as a three fold person, body, mind (soul) and spirit. The mind controls the body, the spirit controls the mind. How ever, that said, I never have put too much study into the thing. If I ever have the time I would like to do a study on it though, it would probably be a fascinating subject. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5531 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, I can't speak for Dennis, but the way I see it is that the "spirit" is the part of us that knows God and is "unclothed" (2 Cor 5) at death. This is the part of an Alzheimer's patient that can be comforted and encouraged quite apart from the physical mind's function. I know that shortly before my dad's death, he had a progressing dementia that was not classic Alzheimer's but was related to mini strokes. He had trouble finding words, he lost the ability to perceive and remember numbers, etc. and I wasn't sure how much of what we said he could comprehend. In addition, he was very deaf. I remember praying that God would bless and comfort him in a place that did not need words or cognitive thoughtóthat He would care for and encourage him. I have no way to measure how God ministered to him, but I know that he did. God is really faithful. Doug, I also enjoyed this discussion. I look forward to your further comments! Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 726 Registered: 10-2002  |
River, that is a VERY good point, thank you! The "soul" is the part of us that psychologists know as our consciousness and sub-consciousness. "Spirit", however, is deeper, and is a lot harder to explain. It's also worth noting that the early Christian apologist Justin Martyr spoke very clearly of the body being the house of the soul, and the soul being the house of the spirit -- in other words, three parts. Many of the challenges that Justin and other early Christians faced were from Greek culture philosophy, which believed in a dual system -- the material and the spiritual. Justin, however, drew three levels, as Scripture suggests at times. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1732 Registered: 10-2004 |
Actually, Doug, you helped me, too. I hadn't seen the significance of those texts in 1 Peter before, either. Thanks! Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 581 Registered: 9-2006 |
As I wrestled with the question of elements of spirit, soul and body this morning my mind began to flip around like a two headed coin looking for tails. I did come to some conclusions. 1. The mind can become locked in a completely paralyzed body. 2. The body can become locked in a paralyzed mind. In both cases physical damage (reduction) can occur. It is not logical that physical damage can occur to the human spirit (cannot be reduced). It is logical that the human spirit can receive spiritual damage caused by the actions of the mind and body but not physical damage (reduction), therefore the mind is connected at some level. It would be logical to think that the brain cannot function without the spirit although the spirit can indeed function without the brain. (Note that Jesus said ìFather, into thy hands I commit my Spiritî and he died immediately). It is not logical to term it Gods spirit because no part of God would ever need regeneration, so it follows that it is manís spirit. If the reasoning stands that manís spirit cannot receive physical damage (reduction), it is ridiculous to believe as the Adventist believe. In computers we term some programs a ìStand aloneî program. The spirit, in my own crude way of thinking might be termed ìStand aloneî outside of the physical resources of the body, but the body cannot ìStand aloneî outside of the resources of the spirit. So it would logically follow that when the spirit leaves the body dies, not vise versa. Itís a matter of which comes first, the chicken or the egg. It seems logical to reason that the spirit is the true generating and life giving force of the body. It has been claimed by many in hospital situations that they viewed their own body and heard what was said by the doctors and nurses as they worked over the body. This seems reasonable to me in view of my logic of the thing. The Adventist view is both illogical and ridiculous. As to the term of Body, mind and spirit, whether we lump the body and mind together is elemental, we can do that both ways and still be somewhat correct but there are definitely two, body and spirit. Now when the Holy Spirit infills us that makes the question even more hard to answer, does he infuse our Spirit with his? If anybody made it this far and you do not agree, tell me where I went wrong. River |
