| Author | Message | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 434 Registered: 7-2005 |
Dear formers, Have you ever thought of suing the church? After all, the SDA church deceived us all in believing a false gospel, in following a false prophet, and all the time presented itself as the "ark of salvation", the only true church, the remnant church. Not only the SDA church presented itself as a true christian church, which is not, but presented as our only option if we want to make it to heaven. In a certain and unmistakable way, the SDA church asked from all of us to stake everything we have on this winner horse. The church construed a real sub-culture, making us feel special, and alienating his members from the world, christian and unchristian alike, since all churches were "synagogues of Satan". The SDA church make us dependent on her, on her subculture, taking our liberty to think and believe as our conscience dicates us according to the word of God. This made leaving adventism a traumatic event, in which loosing jobs, friends, relatives, the investment and work of a lifetime, is the result. A whole world collapses when somebody discovers the hard truth about adventism, and many are unable to have faith in God after their former belief was shattered to the core. As other cults, like JW and Mormons, the SDA church makes a lot of people unbelieevrs in christianity, unable to trust again in God, after their former belief was proved to be a myth. Looking at all the deception and evil done by the SDA church, have you ever felt that it's proper to sue the church? After all, deception in business takes people to court, why not in religion? I discovered that some former mormons are thinking in a similar way, and a retired attorney presents some insights which are good in our healing from the spiritual abuse we suffer. The article is here He said that for a fraud to be proved, the plaintiff must prove 7 points, all points must be proved, without exception.
The problem is with the points 4, 5, and 7.
5. The defendant knew, at the time of making the representations, that they were false; How can the SDA church, the defendant, admit that his claims are false? Now it becomes highly interesting, because we know that the leadership of the church is not innocent in promoting Ellen White as a true prophet, the Investigative Judgment. We know that they are aware of the facts, and practice gross deception. And this is not a new position, the leaders of the SDA church knew even from 1919 that Ellen's claims are not sustained by facts, as the 1919 Conference minutes prove. We know that we were deceived, and the church practiced a fraud. But suppose we can use the 1919 minutes, and other documents to show that the church high leaders promotes deliberately their deception, that clear facts established that the church is a hoax. Suppose we can prove point 4, and point 5, but... let's look at what this former mormon says
It is so hard to admit: we let us to be deceived. We have not investigated the claims of the SDA church, asking questions until we find the answer to them. We all believed that the claims of the church were true, even if God gave us plenty of proof that the claims are not sustained in fact. For example, the lack of true love, which is the sign of a true church. Actually, adventists acknowledge their lack of love by saying that they are the church of Laodicea. It's a covering and excuse for not being able to prove their supposed loyalty to God, in contrast with apostate, churches of Babylon. But this shows that the lack of love is rationalized, and actually people close their eyes to the contrary evidence that their church is special, better than other churches. Of course, we were deceived. But we still have the responsability of not investigating the claims of the SDA church when we were baptised. We believed the claims in spite of contrary evidence, and we need to acknowledge this fact, for moving forward in our new liberty in Christ. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5447 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jackob, you make such an important point. In fact, I believe the point you are making is one of the most basic problems all of us have when dealing with the fact that we have been deceived and must leave the church. I know that I went through a period of time when I felt just plain DUMB and stupidóhow could I have embraced all that as TRUTH when there is so much evidence that it was not? Admitting my own involvement in the deceptionóeven though in many ways my own involvement was unwitting (after all, I received Adentism with my mother's milk)óis the hardest part of this journey. God does call us to truth, and He asks us to recognize our own brokenness at deeper and deeper levels as He reveals Himself to us. But He redeems that brokenness and heals us. Related to this issue, I have been struck by, for example, the way people can defend orthodox beliefs, such as the Trinity, when speaking with Adventists who do not consider it important. On the other hand, when speaking with former ADventists who insist that Adventists do not embrace an orthodox view of the Trinity in spite of its public statements, these same people can argue that Adventism is, indeed, orthodox. The problem here is, again, deception. If a person would follow the Adventist Trinitarian claims backwards through Adventist history, they would find that today's beliefs and practices (most of which are internal rather than public) are firmly rooted in an Arian heresy, not in the apostolic church. Because today's SDA statements about the Trinity grew out of Arianism, and because the church has never repented of its unbiblical foundation, even today's apparently "orthodox" statement is tainted. Adventist belief in the Trinity cannot be taught accurately because it is tainted at the core by heresy rather than by Biblical truth. This fact is why in practice Adventists are "all over the board" in relationship to the Trinity as well as other doctrines such as the nature of Christ, sin, death, etc. We must be willing to admit our own deception in order to be free of its influence. We have to offer to Jesus the places in our hearts where that deception shaped us and ask Him to take those places for His own, rooting us in truth and establishing us in reality. Yes, Jackob, we do have to repent. Even Job, the righteous man, ultimately had to repent in sackcloth and ashes. He never knew why he suffered, but he had to acknowledge that God was sovereign, and no matter how righteous and God-fearing Job was, he had to bow before God and repent for his own unwitting arrogance. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 542 Registered: 9-2006  |
And on the lighter side: The Children, 3-year-old Reese: "Our Father, Who does art in heaven, Harold is His name. Amen." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A little boy was overheard praying: "Lord, if you can't make me a better boy, don't worry about it. I'm having a real good time like I am." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ After the christening of his baby brother in church, Jason sobbed all the way home in the back seat of the car. His father asked him three times what was wrong. Finally, the boy replied, "That preacher said he wanted us brought up in a Christian home, and I wanted to stay with you guys." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ One particular four-year-old prayed, "And forgive us our trash baskets as we forgive those who put trash in our baskets." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A Sunday school teacher asked her children as they were on the way to church service, "And why is it necessary to be quiet in church?" One bright little girl replied, "Because people are sleeping." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A mother was preparing pancakes for her sons, Kevin 5, and Ryan 3. The boys began to argue over who would get the first pancake. Their mother saw the opportunity for a moral lesson. "If Jesus were sitting here, He would say, 'Let my brother have the first pancake, I can wait.' Kevin turned to his younger brother and said, "Ryan, you be Jesus!" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A father was at the beach with his children when the four-year-old son ran up to him, grabbed his hand, and led him to the shore where a seagull lay dead in the sand. "Daddy, what happened to him?" the son asked. "He died and went to Heaven," the Dad replied. The boy thought a moment and then said, "Did God throw him back down?" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A wife invited some people to dinner. At the table, she turned to their six-year-old daughter and said, "Would you like to say the blessing?" "I wouldn't know what to say," the girl replied. "Just say what you hear Mommy say," the wife answered. The daughter bowed her head and said, "Lord, why on earth did I invite all these people to dinner?" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thank God for the children, they lighten up our life and our world. Children are quick to forgive. How quick are we to forgive? Would a lawsuit give us back our days? How much of our own peace would a lawsuit take? Would a lawsuit keep us in turmoil and occupy our time that we could dedicate to the Lord and his ministry? What fruit would a lawsuit produce? Would a lawsuit reflect unforgiveness or Christian love? Would a lawsuit produce faith or take its toll on our faith? River  | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 101 Registered: 10-2006 |
Agreed River, We would look best in Christ's robe of righteousness, not in a "law" suit. I know, I know, my wife says I'm the king of corn. Steve | ||
| Lrcrabtree Registered user Username: Lrcrabtree Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2007  |
My thought is that a lawsuit, even if fruitful, would take my focus away from where it should be - On Jesus and spreading the good news. That said, the legal points listed by Jackob really spell out in a few simple phrases the problems that we, as humans have when left to our own ways. I think we could each take those eight specific points and use them in our own personal lives every day. I know that I must admit to bearing some of the responsibility for not doing my own research (my childhood Bible still has the 'proof text' notes written in the margins). Now I do my own research, and don't limit myself to one author or source. Larry | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5453 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, what funny anecdotes! I totally agree about the futility of a lawsuitóand I think that is the point Jackob was making. In reality, if we want to blame Adventism for what it "did" to us and for how it warped our world view, we ultimately have to face our own complicity in the deception. On the one hand, we are obligated to speak the truth and help each other and the larger Christian community to know the truth about Adventism. Our effectiveness in speaking the truth, however, is dependent upon our own honesty about our own rationalizing and our own perpetration of the "lie". Admitting we are guilty of "buying" the deception and of perpetrating it in our own ways is part of our admission of our own depravity. It's one thing to admit we were born depraved. We couldn't control the fact that we were born guilty of sin because of Adam. At the same time, those of us born into Adventism couldn't help that, either. Yet we are guilty of living and embracing deception. Our being deceived is a consequence of our depravityóbut it hits closer to home, in a way, because as we matured, we chose to stay (for varying lengths of time) without admitting the truth of the problems we saw for many years. This rationalizing and living with cognitive dissonance is hard to "own". Yes, we were most certainly deceived. But that fact does not mean we are innocent. We have to face our own involvement in the deception. Yet we can praise Jesus for awakening us and for bringingus into freedom. We can thank Him for bearing our deception and rationalizing and dishonesty in Himself on the cross. We have been forgiven, and in Jesus we have the righteousness which is from God on the basis of faith!! Larry, you said it welló"I know that I must admit to bearing some of the responsibility for not doing my own research (my childhood Bible still has the 'proof text' notes written in the margins)." But in Jesus we are forgiven! Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 435 Registered: 7-2005 |
Hello all, I want to thank you every one who get involved in this thread, very wise thoughts were written. Indeed it's futile to sue the church, and what I forgot to mention is that we LIKED to be adventists. We liked to be members of the "remnant church", we liked the status of having the "truth", we liked to see ourselves are smarter than those sunday-worshippers, even more devoted to God than them. Our spiritual pride was being fed our entire life, and I believe that this is one of the great barriers in the way of freedom in Christ. I became painfully aware of the fact that my spiritual pride as an adventist prevented me to renounce my adventists identity. My sinful nature wants to retain the pride and at the same time to enjoy the benefits of Jesus finished work of atonement on the cross. I suspect that many evangelical adventists are trying to keep their adventist identity intact, with some slight modifications, even if the gospel had shined in their hearts, and they came to the knowlegde of the true gospel. Trying to adjust the Investigative Judgment with the true gospel is futile, of course, but I think that there is a time when every transitioning adventist ia trying to harmonize the true gospel with something he or she knows that is antithetical with the true gospel. What I think that's important, in all this stuff about our responsability, is the fact that the adventist identity is not a neutral thing in the spiritual battle in which a born again adventist is involved. Thinking that you can remain adventist and a believer in the gospel without negative results is dangerous. Not only because there is a lack of integrity involved, but because there is an uncoscious attempt to keep the adventist spirit of spiritual pride, which is at odds with the core of the gospel. Our true identity is in Christ and nothing else, not the sabbath. Christ is fully and entirely and sufficiently our SABBATH REST. Praise God, Jackob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5459 Registered: 12-2003 |
Very thought-provoking observations, Jackob. Thank you for sharing them. You make a very good point about the unconscious attempt to keep our Adventist spirit of prideóand that IS at odds with the core of the gospel. Thank you for articulating this "condition" so well. Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 551 Registered: 7-2000 |
Speaking of suing the church, the church has started doing something interesting. To make a long story short, the SDA church has stopped telling folks who is on their executive committees. If you call up your local conference and ask, the conference employees have been instructed to tell no one what the names are except for the chairman. The Pacific Union also used to post the minutes of the executive committe, and that stopped as of April of 2006. It sure looks like damage control time... | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 519 Registered: 5-2002 |
*Books from Ellen White & SDA publishers: $5,000 *Tuition to SDA schools: $50,000 *Tithe to the General Conference: $100,000 Eternal Freedom in Christ: PRICELESS | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5460 Registered: 12-2003 |
Interesting, Loneviking! And "Amen" to Freeatlast! As we were leaving the church, Richard went through a period of wishing he could sue for all the tithes and double tithes he had paid. He's content, at this point, knowing that God knows his heart and his desires to obey Himóbut it is a bitter pill to swallow when one finally realizes what all that money actually supported...! "Eternal Freedom in Chirst: PRICELESS"óyes! Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 520 Registered: 5-2002 |
Every penny invested in SDAism is just so much dust off my feet. It's not the only bad investment I've made in my life. At the bottom line, I wouldn't trade a single dollar given to - or moment spent in - SDAism for where I am today. Looking back on my experience in the church and my exit and recovery from it, at the end of the day I am thankful. After all, who can appreciate freedom most but the one who has been chained for all his life? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5461 Registered: 12-2003 |
So true, Freeatlast. I often ponder that very same thing. If I hadn't been Adventist, there's so much I wouldn't know or understand. I thank God that He brought my life through this route to Himself. Knowing Jesus is amazing after having wandered in deception. He is so faithful!! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3431 Registered: 3-2004  |
I have said I am thankful I was raised SDA because I got a good education. But I see that there is more for which to be thankful. I understand the New Covenant better and appreciate and love God in a way I probably never would have appreciated if I had not been raised SDA. As Colleen said above "Knowing Jesus is amazing after having wandered in deception. He is so faithful!!" As for the lawsuit, I thought briefly about it. Then I just told God, you take care of all my tithes. I cannot do a thing about the things I have done in the past. God is taking care of it. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| 91steps Registered user Username: 91steps Post Number: 148 Registered: 8-2005  |
I had to threaten the local conference in order to get them to remove my name from their books! But in hindsight, I am glad I got brainwashed and roped into the church for 10 years, 5 of those I worked at the GC as a Security Officer. The experiences I had there, dealing with all the saints, has really helped me out in life. |
