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Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 692
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 3:58 am: |     |
Happy birthday, River! You're an awesome blessing from God to me and all of us. **manly agape hug**
Colleen, what you wrote...
quote:I'm becoming convinced that the gift of discernment is often ignored or dismissed among those who claim the name of Jesus. I can't think of anything that draws more opposition among those with Adventist roots than calling Ellen a false prophet or attributing her "fruit" to a deceptive spirit. Almost ANYTHING is better than saying her falseness was truly spiritual.
One can say she was misused, inspired in a general way in her ideas, or even that she was not a prophet and not as inspired as we thought. But let someone say she was a real false prophet, and the effect is like dropping a bomb in a room.
It is nearly the same with mentioning the wartime responsibility of the Showa emperor ("Hirohito" to most Westerners)... you can talk about the responsibility of the military and even the society to an extent, but saying that the emperor was responsible is an unspoken off-limits taboo. Among those who really don't care about the emperor, you still don't bring it up because the history seems cloudy and it's such a debatable thing that it's better not to offend ("let's not focus on the past, but let's look to the future").
In the same way, you can talk about people "misusing" EGW, making compliations of her work, mis-editing her work, etc. You can blame the times, the rules of editing & borrowing, and you can even question the actions & inspiration of the people who surrounded Ellen, even the other founders. But you cannot suggest that Ellen was wrong and uninspired by the Holy Spirit.
The parallel strikes again. More someday. |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 429
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 6:55 am: | |
Even some former adventists who came to a knowledge of the gospel are not comfortable in asserting that Ellen White was a false prophet. They don't like the obvious implication: if she was a false prophet, she was not a christian.
There is a noble intent in the goal of these former adventists. They don't want to offend their former brothers, they are constantly trying to find common ground with adventists, and since the subject of Ellen White's gift is such a sensitive one for adventists, they try to be gracious in their approach. Since the don't want to turn away potential believers in the SDA church who need to find or to grow in the liberty of the gospel, they will make everything possible not to offend them regarding this issue, since this is the BOMB. As I said, these former adventists have good intentions when they refrain from saying that Ellen White was a false prophet, asserting that she was just a christian who made mistakes, made false prophecies
What I find extremely interesting is that this approach places those who are thinking in this way in the SDA camp. They are not totally formers, because they are not willing to have the same gracious attitude toward those formers who believe that Ellen White was a false prophet. Those who expose Ellen as a false prophet are viewed as showing an unchristian and ungracious toward Ellen, not having a good heart to admit that she was a christian who made mistakes as anybody of us had made.
Paradoxically, those formers who have not admitted that Ellen was a false prophet are judging harshly their brothers in Christ, former adventists as themselves, and are softer and unusually gracious to adventists. They are acting as true adventists, not as former adventist. The feeling is that you have a true adventist in front of you, trying to defend Ellen White.
Personally, I was extremely reluctant to assert that behind Ellen White was an evil spirit, but I must admit that there is no rational explanation for this paradoxicall attitude. Accusing your fellow former adventists of being unchristian and unloving for telling others that Ellen was a false prophet, when you are not believing in her claims of being a true prophet, is the most amazing psychological position which I encountered in my life. |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 827
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 8:00 am: | |
Well said Jackob! |
Javagirl
Registered user
Username: Javagirl
Post Number: 359
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 8:11 am: | |
Happy Birthday soon Leigh Anne, you look beautiful, alive and young in your photo! Who would guess you are turning 40, and climbing mountains all the while! Is that the Alps??
Happy Belated Birthday River. God chose you to arrive on the scene at the most opportune time for His kingdom expansion!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TODAY MARY! (helovesme2)
Wish I could take you to lunch! Soon we will work that out! Hugs
Ikilgore, way to go!
Steve, last night at an open mike prayer/praise room, this kid came up and began to "rap" about Jesus. Most of it was an "unknown tongue" to me--
Truly, although I don't like rap, I was immensely blessed. I saw this 19 year old kid, on a friday night, totally spirit led in praise of his abba father, to the point of tears and amazement of other kids in the room. He was churning out scripture and statements about the blood of Jesus, redemption, etc, at least the part I could understand. He himself appeared amazed at what God was composing as he stood there. A drummer and keyboard guy joined in, and I tell you, all three were spirit led. Im blessed just thinking of it now, and have a new appreciation for rap.
SO keep Jammin for Jesus! So many awesome ways to worship Him.
Lori
4excape@bellsouth.net
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Lrcrabtree
Registered user
Username: Lrcrabtree
Post Number: 19
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 8:20 am: | |
Javagirl, I too, can't stand rap (I won't call it music). I can barely bare listening to the christian rap that my 14 year old daughter enjoys, but then my parents couldn't stand the music that I listened to as a teenager. I love christian rock music, but at times still feel like I should be singing hymns instead?
BTW, I'm still looking for that verse in the Bible that says we are supposed to sing 'beautiful hymns', on key, to the Lord?
Our awesome God has something for every generation!!
Larry |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 695
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 8:51 am: | |
I have a different perspective than Jackob on the issue of being a "true former". I think that once a person acknowledges that Ellen White did not have messages from God and that her writings have no authority, the "spell" of adventism is broken. The Bible can speak for itself.
I am very uncomfortable with the idea that we would judge other former SDAs regarding the legitimacy of their departure because they do not come to identical conclusion as we do.
I believe that ellen is a false prophet, and have openly said so in conversations with some SDAs. There are other SDAs where this would not be the starting point of my conversation. We must also recognize that there are people who have different styles of interaction. Some thrive on bold confrontation. Others seek areas of agreement and try to build on those into the areas of difference. I will not judge any brother or sister witnessing the Gospel to SDAs.
Besides the Gospel that SDAs most need to hear isn't that EGW is a false prophet, but that in Jesus death they already have total forgiveness and assured salvation through faith. |
Rejoyce719
Registered user
Username: Rejoyce719
Post Number: 23
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 9:44 am: | |
I agree with the above statements that when you recognize that EGW is not a messenger of God, is a false prophet, the spell is broken. You can learn what the Bible actually says. That has been the most wonderful experience for me.
So true, saying EGW is a false prophet is like dropping a bomb to SDAs. You decribed me when you said that discovering this fact about EGW was the second "Great Disappointment". I became dizzy as I read proof of her plagerizing and her saying, "I saw" or "I was shown" when using other writers words. I used to trust every word she said. Her brain injury may have caused her to think she was having visions from God (notice the article on Dirk Anderson's site, (ellenwhite.org), but she certainly knew she was stealing other writers' words and claiming she got them straight from God.
I find it interesting that her plagerism began after her husband died. He consistently gave credit to authors he borrowed from. The excuse that it was okay in the time she lived "does not hold water".
Thanks, Dennis, for book titles.
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Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 445
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 1:23 pm: | |
Lori, thanks for the sweet birthday message! Thanks for the nice compliments too - you think I look good, you should hear me sing! Hahaha
Mary Happy Birthday to you too!! WOW!
And now, back to the thread... |
Cy
Registered user
Username: Cy
Post Number: 61
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 1:47 pm: | |
Happy Birthday, Mary, Leigh Anne, and River!
I'm crossing the bridge to 40 a week from Sunday (FAF Weekend)! Tonight is the big party with family and friends :-)
Make a joyful noise to the Lord all the earth!
Guy |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 980
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 4:33 pm: | |
I partly acknowledged Ellen White being a fraud way back in 1976 when I read PROPHETESS OF HEALTH by Dr. Ronald Numbers. However, it took me clear until the year 2000 (nearly a quarter century later) to officially leave Adventism. Why so long? Frankly, Sylvia and I were scared to leave. The frightening thought of losing our salvation kept us in the fold even though we largely disbelieved Ellen on many topics. I well remember telling someone about my problems with Ellen White. This person then directly asked me, "Was she a false prophet?" Wow, I was completely unprepared at that moment to affirm her as a false prophet. It was still too painful and scary for me. However, with additional research, the designation of "false prophet" eventually became unavoidable.
Importantly, without any personal judgmentalism, false prophets are not Christians. To claim otherwise, when all the facts are known, would disparage and dishonor the wonderful name of Jesus. This may be shocking to many, but God's wonderful family doesn't even have one false prophet in it. Jesus explicitly warned us against them. This is akin to Adam and Eve being likely warned about the deception and trickery of Satan in the Garden of Eden. By the very profession of claiming to be an inspired mouthpiece for God, when one is not authorized, is a very, very serious offense against God. This is nothing less than blasphemy against Him.
Furthermore, this is clearly an unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit. After all, Ellen White boldly and unashamedly claimed the office and title of the "Spirit of Prophecy" a designation reserved for God Himself. In Old Testament times, the reward for falsely prophesying was death. Indeed, as one might expect, throughout Scripture we find the lowest possible view of false prophets. False prophets are God's enemies in disguise.
Dennis Fischer |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 505
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 6:39 pm: | |
Dennis,
I think that is one of the clearest statements on the subject in question I've heard.
But not only that Dennis, I really do sympathize with you and all who go through the process of leaving. you might say I have a feel for it without ever having gone through it, I think the feeling is from the Lord, it has to be, doesn't it?
I suppose thats what keeps me going on with my Adventist friends without dropping them altogether.
Having felt this, the emotional upheaval and uncertainty is tremendious.
I really don't have a clew as to what this falls under in the Bible.
Isn't our Lord patient with us though? The way he works with us?
His love truly does endure, I often grow impatient with my Adventist friends and then I read of how long and painful the process was with you.
Dennis, truly, I thank you for making that statement.Thank you, unwittingly though it was, for reminding me so clearly that I need to work with much patience and just try to be an instrument in God's hands and have faith that headway is being made.
River
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5401
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 7:28 pm: | |
Dennis, thank you for your clear explanation. I agree with you, and Jackob, I understand your statements above. At the risk of trying to explain what I think Jackob meant, Rick, I think Jackob was not referring to people who necessarily admit that Ellen was a false prophetóI think he was referring to people who no longer consider her authoritative but are unwilling to call her a false prophet because of the spiritual implications of such a label. As both Dennis and Jackob have said, a false prophet could not have been a devoted Christ-follower. That implication, I believe, is very diffucult for some people to admit.
Of course, I don't think leading with my belief in Ellen's falseness is the way to approach Adventists. But I believe it's important to acknolwedge to oneself the real truth. Otherwise, one persists in a level of denial and/ or deception oneself which keeps one from fully understanding the nature of what binds those to whom one is witnessing. If one does not accurately identify the enemy, he is vulnerable to the enemy.
Colleen |
Bmorgan
Registered user
Username: Bmorgan
Post Number: 126
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 8:16 pm: | |
Jackob, thank you for your perspective in your post. I have a friend (former Adventist) who'd rather blame the falsehoods she finds within Adventism on everyone or everything-from GC president to the local pastor- rather than call Ellen White a false prophet.
My friend is a graduate from Loma Linda who thinks she will be belittling and demeaning the elite, medical education she received at this prestigious SDA institution. It is unsettling to her and she knows it is a pride issue for her to not admit what she knows in her heart.
She is extremely sensitive and regards Mrs White health teachings as mostly sound. She thinks Mrs White was merely misguided on some issues.
I find it rather interesting because she left the Adventist church about 8 years before me. Before I left, she'd often refer to the church as a Cult in casual conversation with me.
She was happy when I left the church. When I told her about my discovery and called Ellen White a false prophet, she would not agree with me.
She still expresses pity for Adventists people, makes unflattering remarks about their sda teachings, give details of the horrors of her experiences trying to follow the church's teachings, yet she is adamant and objects to saying Mrs White was a false prophet.
I guess it is hard for even some former SDA to admit Mrs White is no different than Joseph Smith or Mary Eddy Baker-people SDA have no problem defining as false prophets.
Yes, Dennis God takes His name seriously. Blasphemy is inexcusable.
Revelation 19:20
And the beast was seized and overpowered, and with him the false prophet who in his presence had worked wonders and performed miracles by which he led astray those who had accepted or permitted to be placed upon them the stamp (mark) of the beast and those who paid homage and gave divine honors to his statue. Both of them were hurled alive into the fiery lake that burns and blazes with brimstone.
Erma
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Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 693
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 6:02 am: | |
Perhaps it is better--when talking to Adventists about the EGW "true/false" issue--to start off by saying Ellen was deceived, as well as the other founders. That way we don't begin by immediately judging her motives and intentions, etc. I do believe there's ample evidence to have serious questions about that, but really, it's not ultimately our department. A deceptive spirit was at work one way or the other (or more likely, in both ways).
Also, understanding that she was likely deceived helps us remember that she was human, too. We are not immune to pride---and that's where the SDA problem started: being unable to admit to a mistake. Somehow in focusing on someone's wrongs (such as EGW's), we can forget the process of how we can fall into deception. The "how" is important because if we focus only on the end result---whether something is correct or incorrect---then we're clipping at fruits and haven't learned how to deal with the roots, such as bitterness, inability to admit mistakes, pride, etc.
To use the Japanese history example again... since the war Japan has tried to stand for Peace, holding up the horror of Hiroshima & Nagasaki to the eyes of the world---which sadly is not paying much attention. However, there is a deeper way in which Japan could help the world if she could face the lead-up to the war, the gradual rise of pride & nationalism over a period of about 70 years. The results of the war are indeed terrible, and terrible enough that we ought to heed the cry for peace. But the lead-up to the war is what is truly educational, showing us how pride in our advances, society, uniqueness, divine chosenness (etc.) all can lead us to esteem our neighbors of little value. If Japan can face this, she will truly have the ability to help other countries that are falling into the same trap of believing they have divine calling & divine support.
It's the same as the apostle Paul who used to be a pharisee before Christ saved him. Paul could speak about the roots---his pride & self-righteousness & striving by works---in a way that was deeper than merely saying that the Jews had wrongly killed Christ.
Looking at the problem of EGW/SDA, we could focus on the fact that it's wrong (which is necessary to see), but if we don't learn from the root causes then we can still be susceptible to the enemy's diversions. The roots of how the SDA forefathers were deceived (how their hearts fell pray to the enemy) are the grand lesson and the testimony I believe God has called us to give as Formers. |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 694
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 6:06 am: | |
Hmm, a shorter way of summarizing all that would be to look at James chapter 1 where he talks about sin being the result of a gradual process of temptations & giving into them. Just like Christ had us look beyond actions to the deeper motivations of the heart. That's where sin & "error" really begin, and that's where the real battle is. |
Stevendi
Registered user
Username: Stevendi
Post Number: 82
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 8:41 am: | |
Lori, thanks for sharing about rap. Recently, I revisited DC Talk. Their lyrics are some of the most inspirational and energizing I've heard. Look, I'm an old man (not as old as River), but I've always lived by the adage "notes is notes". There is no such thing as irreverent music, only spiritual and nonspiritual words. I have had more than one epiphany from so-called secular music. People are spiritual and at all different stages of connection/disconnection with God. Music is from the soul, heart and mind. It is the ultimate gift of expression from God and I believe He enjoys our music, even "secular", unless of course, it misrepresents Him in some way. And the judge of that will be on an individual basis.
Steve |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 981
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 11:39 am: | |
Happy Birthday, Guy! Every season of life has its special blessings.
Dennis Fischer |
Timmy
Registered user
Username: Timmy
Post Number: 157
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 1:01 pm: | |
OK You guys have pointed out what not to say, but what have you found works best when pointing out error in Ellenology.
Obviously it has to be something not to offensive, but clear, to the point and historically supported.
What has worked for you?
The first thing that comes to my mind is the "Day of Attonement" in 1844. History shows that it was never as early as Oct, but closer Sept 20? Some Jewish historians dispute the date but only by a couple of days.
This approach is not an attack, but simply a research. If you can prove the date is wrong, you have proven Ellenology questionable.
ts |
Blessed
Registered user
Username: Blessed
Post Number: 17
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 4:06 pm: | |
I have enjoyed reading all your posts and thank you for your thoughts on the whole issue of Ellen and plagarism. It is interesting that even though back in the 60's there was no talk about plagarism I always had this feeling that there was something wrong with believing in her. Even at the age of 10 and a little older I questioned so many of the things that she said and definitely had issues with the Investigative Judgement. I challenged my teachers often with questions about her statements that made no sense and often contradicted the scriptures. I am sure that my teachers were glad when I changed schools!!!
The other issue that I had related to the whole idea of women usurping authority over men. (Am I opening up a can of worms here!!). I grew up in a very matriarchal family that went back a number of generations. The women made many of the decisions and I remember getting quite angry with both the women in the family who controlled as well as the men who allowed it to happen. In my home my dad was not an SDA and so many issues relating to my upbringing were decided upon by my mother because everything had to be filtered via Adventism. I remember the church teaching that Adventism was the final authority and that one's loyalty was to be to the doctrines of Adventism before their marriage partner. As a child I witnessed all of this and I remember saying to myself and to others that there was something wrong with this picture. I have yet to fully understand why I questioned so many things where others did not but it was that questionning mind that finally led me to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
This is slightly changing the subject but another thing that played a part in my decision to leave Adventism was the whole idea of what was and what was not allowed on the Sabbath. There were constant inconsistencies and the final straw was a situation that came up when I worked as a nurses aide at a Adventist personal care centre. A patient was in need of an enema and there was major discussion as to whether it was proper to give this on the Sabbath or wait until sundown. The final decision was to wait. The crazy part was that the Adventists couldn't agree on what was right and what wasn't. Leaving Adventism is a journey and for me it was accumulative and the decision really wasn't that difficult even though I was not aware that she had copied. As I mentioned in an earlier post, spending time on the Ellen White website just made me thank the Lord that I am free from all of that.
We leave on Wednesday morning to fly to Palm Springs and I am so looking forward to the weekend in Redlands. Hopefully I will get to meet many of you then.
Blessed |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 695
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 5:04 pm: | |
Tim -- I don't know what works best. Pray and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal it & guide you. Everyone is different, and what helps one person see may not be the same for another (I think all the ways that people here have "seen" are testament to this). The biggest thing is always the Gospel. Getting familiar with the Gospel is more dangerous to belief in SDA/EGW than anything else. And it's the only thing that can hold you up when the SDA house inevitably comes crashing down. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 982
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 9:25 pm: | |
Blessed,
Your experience with a patient in a SDA medical facility reveals the complicated legalism that thrives in Adventism. Mockingly, Adventists like to refer to Sunday churchgoers as "sun worshippers" while they themselves keep their eyes focused on the sun for two days out of every week. So, who are the real "sun worshippers"?
Dennis Fischer |
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