| Author | Message | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 153 Registered: 8-2006 |
Can someone help me out here? I know we had a discussion not too long about about the role of women in the church. I searched for the discussion and can't find what I was looking for. Someone (I believe Colleen maybe?) mentioned a new book on the subject that I gathered may be more balanced between the complementarian and egalitarian view. Anyone have books they like or dislike on this subject? I'm not particularly interested in the Grudem book as I believe I understand the very traditional view. Thanks for any help.... Aliza | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5374 Registered: 12-2003  |
Aliza, the book I've been reading is Men and Women In The Church by Sarah Sumner, the head of the ministry dept at Azusa Pacific University. I respect Sarah's high view of Scripture, and I also appreciate her direct dealing with the apparent tension between some of the NT passages. She doesn't argue from personal preference or from a philosophical positionóalthough admittedly she has taken a personal position in the matter. She didn't approach her study from an already established position; she formed her opinion after studying. I acknowledge that not every scholar will agree with her, but she makes a thought-provoking case. Hope this helps! Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 485 Registered: 9-2006  |
The role of women is to stay home, cook, clean, take care of the kidís and give us men their blessing when we go hunting, fishing, sailing, golfing, 4x4-ing, scuba diving, brag on the game we bring home even though itís shot to heck with blood and hair all over it, obediently go ahead and skin it and cook it, produce fish when we donít catch any and obey at all times. After our full day of doing these wonderful things, bring us our slippers, the remote control and gently message our necks while we snooze sunken deeply into our lazy boy recliner. You donít need any more information than that. But if you just must have a book I will write you one and get it to you forthwith. Glad to be of help.  Your best friend River | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 154 Registered: 8-2006 |
Colleen, that's what I thought it was but I couldn't get it to come up on the search feature. In fact, I'd already put it in a shopping cart on a website, but then I figured I better check! River, you're just too funny! Lots of the men are sure you're absolutely right. Aliza | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 546 Registered: 7-2000 |
Better duck River! There's a whole bunch of women on this forum that are going to be aiming all sorts of missles at you! I warned you.... | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 486 Registered: 9-2006 |
Hey there Lone, where you been? Get on here every once in a while and help me keep these women in line. Just got back from a church feed, Roast beef, baked potato and green beens with pie ala mode, I tell you those ladies sure fed us up right. They got us trained real good. River | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 547 Registered: 7-2000 |
Keep the women in line? LOL! That's like trying to herd cats.......... | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 122 Registered: 7-2000 |
River, River, Biver what are we going to do with you? Bill thanks for warning River of the impossibility, keeping women in line. ;~) When's the book be ready, River. Our pastor's wife is teaching the women's bible study at church, called "Biblical Womanhood." I am posting the links so anyone can listen if you care to. This is the same study that blew me away some years ago as I was exiting the SDA church. It was the beginning of the life changing reality of Jesus, for me. Here is the link to the church's website. Anyone can listen to the Bible study online and even download the study material. I'd like you all to just stop in and visit my church home. You can see and listen to my pastor on video. Tell me what you think. I'll sing a little louder today because I know you'd be watching, River.;~) http://hcbc.com/templates/cushcbcnw/details.asp?id=28485&PID=225530&Style= http://hcbc.com/templates/cushcbcnw/details.asp?id=28485&PID=387098&Style= | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 487 Registered: 9-2006 |
Looks like I have gotten myself into enough trouble Now I have to go to church and repent. I will look at the site this afternoon B-Morg. Look forward to it. Thanks for sharing. River | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 510 Registered: 4-2006  |
I can just recommend the following blog: http://strivetoenter.com/wim I've learned so much from it. In His wonderful grace, Martin | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 548 Registered: 7-2000 |
BMorgan, your church looks about like my church as to doctrine, elder led, position on women etc. If I'm ever around Austin, I'll try to remember to stop by! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5377 Registered: 12-2003 |
BMorgan, your church is also very much like ours regarding its beliefs and practices. When we visited your church nearly five years ago, it was wonderful. I'm looking forward to hearing one of your pastor's wife's Bible studies. Colleen | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 123 Registered: 7-2000 |
River, Colleen, and any one else for that matter, did you get a chance to listen to my pastor's sermon from yesterday, 2-4-07? http://hcbc.com/templates/cushcbcnw/details.asp?id=28485&PID=212443 I know his opening statement and remarks about superbowl XL1 (the 2nd lead story) and human relations in America particularly, may be a bit off subject and beyond the scope of this forum, however, I'd like to heard feedback from you. If you are uncomfortable addressing the subject publicly, please email responses to me personally. goslyn@juno.com I have great respect and love for my pastor and generally have little or no disagreement with him but I want to know if I was simply a tad reactionary to make his statement an issue? By the way, my pastor and I discussed the matter at great length. I really want to hear thoughts from you all though. Erma | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 124 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yeah, Bill and everyone! Come visit Austin and our HCBC-nw church. You'd like them both. The church is considered being in Cedar Park though. Austin is a likeable healthy, "Green city" At church, sometimes I just stand and look around at the other worshippers with breathless amazement, and inhale the Presence, Sweetness and Awesomeness of God grace, Sovereignty and Holiness expressed through His people, my fellow Believers. Come on down here! We'll leave the Light on, just for y'all. Erma | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 102 Registered: 1-2006  |
Aliza, The book Lost Christianities by Bart D. Ehrman addresses the debate of Paul's view of women in church. 1 Cor 14:34-35 shows women to be silent and exercise no authority over men. This coincides well with 1 Tim 2:12-15 no teaching, no authority, silence, Adam not deceived, Eve fell, she is saved thru childbearing--if . . . Quoting Ehrman "In other words, women earn salvation by keeping quiet and pregnant; it is men who have authority to teach. So says Paul. Or does he? Scholars today are not so convinced." Ehrman writes that most critical scholars think that 1 Tim is pseudonymous and that it's vocabulary, writing style, theological modes of expression, and presupposed historical situation all differ significantly from what can be found in Paul's authentic letters. Ehrman goes on . . . There are good reasons for thinking that Paul did not write the passage about women being silent in 1 Cor 14 since three chapters earlier he condoned women speaking in church. He also mentions that our little passage in chapter 14 appears intrusive in its own literary context . . . "Both before and after his instructions for women to keep silent, Paul is speaking not about women i church but about prophets in church. When the verses on women are removed, the passage flows neatly without a break." There's more but I'm not going to type the whole book! Bob The book is published by Oxford University Press, 2003 | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 103 Registered: 1-2006 |
Aliza Actually, the part about keeping quiet and pregnant doesn't sound so bad! A little more, to help, hopefully! Regarding the passage in 1 Cor 14, Ehrman writes that the same verses appear in different locations in some surviving manuscripts "as if they had originally appeared as a marginal note (drawn from the forged letter of 1 Tim?) and inserted as judged appropriate in different parts of the chapter." Ehrman goes on to mention Gal 3:28 (neither male nor female) and also Romans 16:3,6,12 and Junia, "foremost among the apostles" in 16:7 There was also strong sentiment against marriage and sex in false gospels, apparently obvious forgeries according to to some scholars. Hope this helps. My trust is in the Lord. His Spirit convicts us of truth. May He guide us. Bob | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 155 Registered: 8-2006 |
Interesting, Bob. However, I do believe that the Bible is God's holy Word. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5381 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, AlizaóI agree. When we take the entire Bible as the holy Word of God, all of it makes more sense. We cannot choose parts of it that are "mistakes"ówe, then would be our own ground of truth. Really, the Bible clearly teaches that God has saved women equally with men, and women are equally part of the body of Christ and receive His gifts. We are different from men, and the Bible is also clear that there is a difference of role between men and women. None of this means that God cannot give whatever gifts He chooses to either men or women. And Paul clearly commended women in his letters as well as men. I like what John Piper says about the difficult passages in Scripture. He says those are there so we will ask God for His revelation of truth. He says that God is faithful to His word, and when we grapple with the difficult passages with His help, He rewards us with insight. We can't dismiss passages as not authentic. Rather, we have to assume that the Bible is completely truthful when it says of itself that ALL Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction and correction. As Dale Ratzlaff says in the next Proclamation, one's view of the reliability of Scripture is related to the amount of faith one can exercise. And BobóI agree with you that we can trust the Lord, and His Spirit convicts us of truth. Well said. Colleen | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 106 Registered: 1-2006 |
Colleen and Aliza Pastor Gary Inrig once shared a sermon on the canon of scripture. It was about the time that the book The Davinci Code was published. In that sermon he mentioned several of the well-studied problems of how the NT books came to us. Unlike OT Jewish scribes who were well educated and disciplined, the early chrisitans writers came from a variety of trades--think Peter and Paul. So problems and disagreements came in, not only from copying and varying levels of discipline (perhaps attempts to clarify meanings?) but from actual disagreements, such as over the role of the law of Moses (the whole 613, including the 10--see Acts 15, Rom 3, Rom 14, Gal, etc) and Gary mentioned 1 Cor 11:19 in this context: "No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval." What was going on here? There were soon about 42 known additional gospels, probably more, some with pretty strange teachings, including forgeries in Paul's name (3rd Corinthians, for example) and perhaps Paul was never aware of all of these, many certainly written later. But I have always been interested in his comment in Gal 6:11 that he was writing in his own hand--big letters, perhaps as a way of convincing others that this was in fact his book--not a forgery. Anyway, Paul wrote knowing of both the conflicts and the hazard of false writers. So, I think, he faced the same concern that we as Bible readers face today. Would God actually guide and defend His inspired word through the centuries or would the gates of hell prevail against the body of Christ? My faith is in the Lord. He knows the scripture I have in my hands. As you say, we trust Him even though we recognize that there will be disputes (1 Cor 11) and that He will guide us into truth. I am amazed, coming out of adventism, as I get clearer glimpses of the great divide in Christendom, evident in Paul's determined defense of the gospel against those who would put us back under the law. It's no less a problem today. Truly, only God can lift the veil, and it causes me a good bit of fear to realize that it's not primarily a matter of "head" knowledge of the scriptures, but of trust in the Lord Jesus--from the heart. That's why I worry so much about my well educated adventist friends--what could they possibly lack? Bob | ||
| Olga Registered user Username: Olga Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2005 |
"There were soon about 42 known additional gospels, probably more, some with pretty strange teachings, including forgeries in Paul's name (3rd Corinthians, for example)...." Bob, or anyone else, do you know where I could find information about this other book (3rd Corinthians, that is)? olga |
