| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 490 Registered: 9-2006  |
Pauls letter to Galatians, As I reread Pauls letter to the Galatians this morning, I thought again about how it could and I believe does apply to Adventist in a most shocking way. I was trying to clarify some of his writings in my mind, more especially where he talks about ìWalking in the Spiritî. In an effort to get a sense of what Paul was saying to the Galatians, I went to my copy of Zondervans Amplified Bible. On thinking about my Adventist associates and their attempt to evangelize me, I read Zondervans approach to Gal 4:17 it was shocking to see the parallel to what some of you have said about their evangelizing techniques. Zondervan: Gal. 4:17 These men [the judaizing teachers] are zealously trying to dazzle you- paying court to you, making much of you; but their purpose is not honorable or worthy or for any good. What they want to do is isolate you [from us who oppose them], so that they may win you over to their side and get you to court their favor. You know, when I read that, I felt chills, a sense of abhorrence at this thing call Adventism. Paul goes on to explain about the two covenants in verse 21 and as I read on I came to chapter 5:7, 8, 9. Again, Zondervan: Gal. 5:7 You were running the race nobly. Who has interfered (hindered and stopped you) from heeding and following the truth? Vrs 8. This [evil] persuasion is not from him who called you-who invited you to freedom in Christ. Vrs. 9. A little leaven [a slight inclination to error, or a few false teachers] leavens the whole lump [perverts the whole conception of faith, or misleads the whole church]. The key thought on reading that was of the Adventist of putting a slightly different twist on core beliefs, Word semantics, agreeing on points and then trying to call the shots if you get what I mean. (Christian look and feel) Now as I read on down to where I was trying to determine what Paul was really saying when he talked about walking in the Spirit when I got another possible wake-up here. In chapter 5:20 Paul is speaking the work [mechanisms] of the flesh. Again, Zondervan: Gal. 5:20 Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies; Vrs. 21 Envy, drunkenness, carousing and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Now the clicker here is ìShall not inheritî and the key word is those who practice heresy. Paul is pretty stern about folk who try to live under the old covenant (or) law and teach others these things. He ends up lumping it right in with the works of the flesh, which I believe that it is and he is saying, at least I think, that those who practice the things will ìnot inheritî right along with other works of the flesh. This has long been a question with me. Are there Christians practicing Adventism? It certainly doesnít look favorable to say the least. Now I know this is hard stuff people, those of you who have Adventist family, husbands, wives, children. God knows the heart, we know the fruits of the spirit. I have to ask the question then. Does Adventism produce Love, Joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness and so forth? You know them better than me. I just donít see it produced in the fallout from folks leaving the Adventist church, Steve doesnít seem to see much of it in his own family. You folks tell me, am I dealing with Christians or seditionist in my Adventist associates? Huh? Am I being creative so as to make this in my favor of my own views? I havenít even begun to get down to the nitty gritty with four years of this under my belt. What woke me up was when (in my own opinion now) the Holy Spirit ask me what I see in Godís word, about the plumbline. I believe what the Holy Spirit was conveying to me (If it indeed was the Holy Spirit) ìLook, I have already said in my word, when do you have to keep asking me these things?î Maybe someone will have a different view to look at. River | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 105 Registered: 1-2006  |
River La Sierra University, an SDA university in southern California has done significant research into the beliefs of students in SDA schools. In general, about half of SDA students are confused on the gospel and believe that faith plus something (works, human obedience to the law, character perfection, or whatever it may be) is required for salvation. My former boss, who had served as a chaplain at Loma Linda University Medical Center mentioned that the chaplains there have addressed how to deal with the despair of Adventists who face the death of loved ones and who have nothing more than a faith plus works concept (like the kids in SDA schools) of salvation. I will not judge them, but my heart aches for my friends. I have seen things that are just heartbreaking, and I have started to write about them so many times on this forum but have deleted them every single time. It's just too much. I have seen so much pain caused by adhering to Adventist beliefs. Worse than I care to describe. Absolute despair. Real people--not just generalities. You wouldn't believe it. Bob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5380 Registered: 12-2003  |
Bob, I so understand what you have seen. And River, you really do describe Adventism and understand it as related to Galatians accurately. While I know that some Adventists are committed to knowing Jesus, and He is honoring their commitment and revealing Himself to them (and, I believe in most cases, slowly drawing them to Himself away from Adventism), the church as an organization is spiritually compromised. Tonight at women's Bible study, Elizabeth Inrig had a young woman from our church speak briefly about her coming appointment to a church-planting mission in Italy. Elizabeth said, "It has been said that it takes a Catholic seven years to come to know Jesus. First they have to get over 'mother'; then they have to get over 'mother church'." That comment rang a loud bell in my headóI would say it takes Adventists a good seven years to leave Adventism, tooómore or less. They have SO MANY false doctrines, erroneous definitions, and idolatrous practices to unlearn. Your right, Bob, about the absolute despair. Praise God he seeks us and draws us to Himself. Colleen | ||
| Ikilgore Registered user Username: Ikilgore Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2006 |
Aloha guys, Bob, you hit it with the comment about SDA's have issues about when you die. I was talking with my mom about just some religious stuff last Sunday after church. She mentioned something about that while she liked Northwoods (the church I attend) she didnt like how they said that you when you die you go to Heaven. I said to her that I didnt really believe that you just died and that was it until Jesus returned. She mentioned some text about how "the dead know nothing"? Colleen, maybe some info on that text?? I told her that there is just too many texts that differ from the Adventist point of view. She didnt really say anything so I went and told her that the one that kinda blew the whole sleep thing was the one where Paul or Peter says that they would rather die and be with the Lord than to continue in this current state. She didnt really say much about that. I didnt want to start anything so we talked about some other stuff. I really would like to get a good study on what happens when you die. Anyone have some suggestions? I really want to see some good stuff. I think that you go to Heaven when you die. Thanks guys, Isaiah | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 491 Registered: 9-2006 |
Yes, well of course I probably need to point out that I am not speaking of every living soul involved with the Adventist church, I am speaking as a general rule and pointing the finger at no one person, I am addressing the problems of Adventism and those who will refuse correction. The cognitive dissonance that goes on with the people (I think) is trying to tell them something. If I myself hear something that doesnít quite line up I get the same thing (cognitive dissonance) and then I try to work it out by studying the word. Isaiah, I hear that ìThe dead know nothingî quote quite often from my Adventist friends. (Eccl 9:5 KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Of course what this is speaking of is that this earthly realization must come to an end, my own father has died, he will no longer have a part in this earth, his spirit has gone on to receive its reward. This flesh must die because of sin and we shall receive a body that has not been corrupted. Mortality must put on immortality, (1 Cor 15:49 KJV) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (1 Cor 15:50 KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (2 Cor 5:5 KJV) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. (2 Cor 5:6 KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2 Cor 5:7 KJV) (For we walk by faith, not by sight  (2 Cor 5:8 KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. The erroneous ìstate of the deadî belief springs from the ìInvestigative Judgmentî teaching, the IJ is the most insidious thing I have ever heard, the propensity for hopelessness and fear that it instills in my friends, it is a constant irritation to me. If man puts his confidence in himself, he can have no confidence in Christ. The Adventist looks at the Bible deductively rather than inductively in order to try to make the IJ work, the IJ is a result of trying to explain what happened in 1844 and is a product of the error of date setting when the New Testament plainly speaks against anyone knowing the day of his coming. Error just begets more error. It reminds me of algebra (I hated algebra) I could understand trigonometry very well but I would get into all sorts of trouble with a basically flawed algebra problem. I finally just depended on a Texas Instruments calculator that had the ability to figure in algebraic logic. It was my ìblack boxî that got me through college. My studies were in trig. with very little algebra. If we hold Jesus as the center then both sides of the problem, right to left and left to right works, using Daniel 8:14 and the IJ just does not work. IMO. He has given us the earnest of the Spirit to create within us a blessed hope, a new confidence, a living faith and assurance which is starkly absent in my Adventist friends. We behold his glory from faith to faith, that is to say, while my Adventist friends repeat rote teaching devoid of life or substance, my own faith grows daily and has become a living substance. Hang in there Isaiah and let your faith grow and encompass your family. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 492 Registered: 9-2006 |
My heart is really saddened to the realization that these folk (Adventist) did pay court to me in order to try to separate me from my evangelical beliefs and so that they might win me over to their side and get me to court their favor. It hurts because of my good heart of intentions toward them even though I know they did it with no intent of malice, it still has hurt me. I want to be loved for who I am I suppose. I feel betrayed, malice or not. Still, all in all it has just caused my faith to increase, my knowledge of the word to increase, so that the gains are so much greater than the loss. That little bit of love I extended them has returned a hundred fold and I have found that Jesus is again true to his word (Luke 6:38 KJV) Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. My faith grows only to encompass my Adventist friends, faith and prayer for their salvation, Jesus again spoke true when he said (Mark 4:31 KJV) It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: (Mark 4:32 KJV) But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it. Our faith can reach out to encompass our family and friends and hurt and unforgiveness cannot thrive in that kind of atmosphere. Hurt and unforgivness can grow into a formidable mountain but Jesus said (Mat 17:20 KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. That mustard seed of faith I extend to the FAF weekend and expect a great harvest there also. Thank God for Jesus. In Christ river | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 108 Registered: 1-2006 |
Praise God for your testimony, River, and for sharing the insights from Elizabeth Inrig, Colleen. Isaiah, I'll try to respond to your request soon. There's a fine article, but give me some time to find it. Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 111 Registered: 1-2006 |
Isaiah Here's the article with a lot of Bible texts on what happens after death. http://www.ratzlaf.com/Streifling%20Death.pdf Bob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5385 Registered: 12-2003 |
Isaiah, Here's another article that I believe will help you understand the Biblical persepctive of the Spirit as opposed to the Adventist perspective. It's a detailed Bible study. It's in the Sept-Oct 2004 issue of Proclamation, and you can download it here: http://rtinker.powweb.com/Proclamation2004_SepOct.pdf Colleen | ||
| Ikilgore Registered user Username: Ikilgore Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2006 |
Aloha guys, Thanks Colleen. I was at a friends house and had the laptop going and started to download the issue you linked to when I started to look at te other Proclamation issues. Yeah, downloaded the whole past years worth and was starting to get the rest of 2005 when I decided to leave and go home for the morning. It was like 3:30 AM when I left. I have been reading through the PDF's and have to say that you guy's stuff is really good. It doesnt have the "we are in defensive mode, so let's attack what has hurt us" slant to it. I really like the way that it just presents real people finding truth in Jesus. I left for work today left the laptop on with Proclamation up. It was the issue about Cultic Doctrine... parents haven't mentioned it... |
