| Author | Message | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 447 Registered: 11-2004 |
I am aware of the SDA position that the scapegoat is Satan. Apparently, other groups hold this belief as well. I recently discovered that some Messianic Jews believed Satan is the scapegoat and that that portion of the atonement relates to end times. I'm not sure I understand that perspective yet. What is your belief about the scapegoat and Azazel in Leviticus 16? I would appreciate hearing your perspectives. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5316 Registered: 12-2003  |
In Leviticus 16, tow flawless kids or lambs were chosen, and lots were cast to determine which would be the sacrifice and which would be the scapegoat. After slaughtering the sacrificial lamb and offering its blood in the atonement sacrifice, the priest transferred Israel's sin onto the head of the scapegoat and sent it into the wilderness. It figuratively carried Israel's sin far away from them. Adventists say that Satan is the scapegoat, and that at the end of the IJ, Jesus does the final cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary by removing the sins of the saved from the Most Holy Place where they have defiled heaven as they have been kept there by Jesus' blood. (Jesus' blood somehow carries the sins of those who have professed Christ and "stores" them within the blood in heaven until the IJ is complete.) The final cleansing occurs when Jesus places that sin on the head of Satan, and Satan bears them out of heaven and suffers longer in hell than anyone else as punishment for causing humanity to sin. The sins of those who did not pass the judgment are put back onto them, and they suffer for them in hell. In Leviticus 16, the two lambs/kids are chosen by lot. Either one could have been the sacrifice or the scapegoat. They both represent an aspect of Jesus' atoning sacrifice: he died for sin and experienced the separation from the Father, AND he bore the sins of humanity and put them as far as the east is from the west from God and also from the saved. If the scapegoat represents Satan, then Satan plays a crucial role in the putting away of sin. He actually bears the final weight of our sinsóJesus paid the price, but Satan takes the final wieght and punishment. Satan cannot bear our sinsóGalatians 3:13 says Jesus became a curse for us, and 2 Cor. 5:21 says He became our sin. Satan does not bear our sin. Jesus became it and broke its power on the cross, putting it forever away from His people and from God. Colleen | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 448 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thanks Colleen! Do you or anyone else have an opinion on what Azazel is in this text? "9And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the LORD and use it as a sin offering, 10but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel." | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 965 Registered: 4-2000  |
The Hebrew name, azazel, in this context means "the goat of removal." The Talmud (yoma 67b) identifies "azazel" as the name of the cliff over which the scapegoat was driven to ensure that it would die and never return to the camp. Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 435 Registered: 9-2006  |
What Collen said. Saves me typing. Just got home from church, wonderful service. My BiL needs prayer is in ICU tonight, Docs don't hold out much hope. River | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2006 |
Father, bless River with Your grace and limitless love by using him to extend Your healing hope and peace to his brother in law. Let him see and feel Your eternal promise. Amen Steve | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 489 Registered: 4-2006  |
Here is a relevant link: http://www.truthorfables.com/Scapegoat.htm | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 439 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thanks for prayer Steve.I felt it, you must have melted the snow around your house with that one! Update on BiL. Still in ICU. Diabetes 400. pulse rate 139. Kidneys shutting down. None responsive. Hope in Jesus, regardless of outcome. My faith intact and glorifying God. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 440 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thanks for the link Martin, I read it throughly, the man put into words what I sensed in my spirit when I read the account in Leviticus 16. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 407 Registered: 6-2006  |
Does Leviticus 16 seem random to anyone? It just seems to me when I read it that it was a requirement that the Lord put on Isreal, and I'm not sure I understand what the purpose is of any church to read into it and pull out end times prophesies. I can totally understand the imagery of Jesus, but there are so many other passages that explains the scapegoat/sacrifice even better. Maybe what I'm trying to understand is, if Jesus said he would be coming back for us, and no one knows the time/date/day, is there really a need for end times prophesies? Am I being naive? ??? Leigh Anne | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 449 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thanks for the insights! I've heard of Azazel meaning a cliff. However, the book of Enoch found in the dead sea scrolls gives detailed information about Azazel. Apparently, the book of Enoch was viewed highly by the early church fathers and it was even quoted in the book of Jude. Apparently, Azazel was a fallen angel. Here are some things it says about Azazel "And Az’zÍl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semj’z’ taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Arm’rŮs the resolving of enchantments, Bar’qÓj’l, taught astrology, KŮkabÍl the constellations, EzÍqÍÍl the knowledge of the clouds, AraqiÍl the signs of the earth, ShamsiÍl the signs of the sun, and SariÍl the course of the moon." and "the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Az’zÍl hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dšd’Íl (Gods Kettle/Crucible/Cauldron), and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Az’zÍl: to him ascribe all sin." | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 1070 Registered: 7-2004 |
I don't see any "end time" prophecy in Lev. 16, unless you go along with what scripture says and acknowledge that the time of Christ forward is the end time. Over a year ago I did a point by point response to Leviticus 16, and the whole point of it is to point to the sacrifice of Christ. It takes two goats to complete the representation of what Christ did for us because goats are mortal. If it were possible to sacrifice one goat and then have that one goat carry the sins away forever, then there would have been no need for the second goat. The tabernacle or temple was never polluted with the sins of the people, the altar in the outer court was. On the Day of Atonement, the blood of the sacrifice cleansed all of the believers as well as the Sanctuary and every part of it. Purity was restored by the end of the ceremony, just as our purity through Jesus Christ was assured after Jesus ascended to the Father that Sunday morning so long ago. Satan will suffer for his own sins, including the sin of dragging others into his rebellion, but each rebel he deceived will pay for their individual rebellion unless they have accepted the perfect atonement freely offered by the grace of Jesus Christ. Belva | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 450 Registered: 11-2004 |
I agree that the scapegoat is obviously not Satan. Even if you believe that Azazel is Satan the Bible says "into the wilderness TO Azazel." I do believe that the goat is Jesus. Only He was perfect and only He carried the sins of the world. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 408 Registered: 6-2006 |
Thanks Belva! I have a question regarding the Satan as the Scapegoat doctrine. How big of an issue is it with most SDA's? Although I have a very active (to say the least!) SDA family-in-law, I don't hear about that one as often as I do the Sabbath, food laws, etc. In fact, I don't think I've ever heard my FIL bring it up. Is this doctrine of great importance to most SDAs? Is it something that is agreed upon, or just plain confusing to the average SDA? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 804 Registered: 8-2004  |
With the SDAs I knew it was just a forgone conclusion. Satan was the scapegoat and that was that. Since the scapegoat is not talked about much in the general "Protestant America" the SDAs didn't talk much about it either. But Satan being the scapegoat is just a regular part of the Investigative Judgment on the "Antitypical Day of Atonement" according to all the Adventists I knew who even thought about it, and that's what EGW clearly taught in books like the Great Controversy. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 493 Registered: 4-2006 |
Just had a thought, if Azazel is Satan, Jesus could atone for sins and then triumph over Azazel, like: "And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross." (NIV) Colossians 2:15 | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 409 Registered: 6-2006 |
Mary, where did the "Antitypical Day of Atonement" come from? Is that only an SDA phrase? I have all these questions today! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3373 Registered: 3-2004  |
River, I prayed for your BIL right after I read your remarks about him. I will keep him in my prayer. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5324 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mary, I'm curious, too. I've heard that "antitypical day of atonement" phrase used by 1888-ers. Is that an Ellen phrase, or is that a phrase developed to explain and justify the IJ and make this time period since 1844 correspond to the Day of Atonement in Israel? (A trick, at any rate, because a great deal more than a day has passed since 1844!) My MIL explained a couple of weeks ago that she finally understood why Adventists weren't to wear makeup when she understood that we are living in the antitypical day of atonement. The children of Israel were required to abase themselves on the Day of Atonement while the nation supplicated God and the high priest presented the sacrificial blood in the Most Holy Place. She new sees that we are living in a time of self-abasement during which we wait for Jesus to finish applying His blood in the heavenly sanctuary and are waiting to see him come backóreturning from the Most Holy Place as did the high priest when he finished in the Most Holy Place. Convoluted, convoluted....(Now where did I leave my lipstick...?) Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5325 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, I'm praying for you and BIL and family... Colleen |
