| Author | Message | ||
| Tkmommy Registered user Username: Tkmommy Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2007 |
HI all. My husband went to a sabbath school today entitled "religious liberty". I like to spend my time banging two sticks together in Cradle Roll. LOL Anyway, he received two booklets..one on religious liberty, and another entitled "Ten Great Gospel Truths That Make The 1888 Message Unique...The Message of Jones and Waggoner with Bible and Ellen White Support" I skimmed thru it on the way home but really haven't read it. It seems to really uplift righteousness by faith, and how the early leaders stressed it. I was wondering if any of you were familiar with this booklet (it was copyrighted in 1998) and could least brief me on who Jones and Waggoner were and the basic tenets of their beliefs...I seem to have seen their names metioned here before. Thanks! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5216 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jones and Waggoner presented righteousness by faith to the Adventist church in 1888. At first Ellen rejected their message, but she later endorsed them. There has been a resurgence of ADventists studying the "1888 message", and there is an 1888 Study Committtee that has reintroduced the idea to the church. The problem with this message, though, is that it is "righteousness by faith" along with "sanctification by keeping the law". It is an amalgamation of being saved by faith and also being able to keep the law. It is not the true gospel, but it has convinced a lot of Adventists that they finally have the gospel. The 1888 message as it is currently taught is rooted deeply in Ellen White, and it also downplays the need for Jesus' blood to have been shed in order for us to be forgiven. I read a book a few years ago by Wieland and Short, the leaders of the modern 1888 message, and it explained that Jesus' death was for the purpose of demonstrating how low we would go. Humans are so wicked they would kill God. IOW, Jesus' death was not primarily a forensic atonment; it was primarily an act of martyrdom to demonstrate how evil we are. It is another gospelóand it is still Adventism. Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 378 Registered: 6-2006  |
Colleen, that's horrible!! Just last Fall my in-laws drove an hour to attend a "religious liberty" message. My first thoughts were that it was another way to promote the "Sunday Law" message. Not sure I understand what religious liberty has to do with 1888 message??? Tami, that SS class would make me want to bang two sticks together as well! Haha Leigh Anne | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 685 Registered: 7-2004  |
Yes, Weiland and Short plainly recognized that the gospel of ellen was different than the Gospel taught in much of Christianity.
According to Weiland and Short, conservative SDAs have a better truer gospel than that taught by Paul. According to Paul, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" (Gal 1:8). Seems pretty clear to me! | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 325 Registered: 8-2006 |
Ric, I have not read anything of Weiland and Short in over 10 years, so I'm astonished that they have gone further than things I read. I understood what they were promoting was perfection by faith, but this seems to be saying that they feel every other belief espoused by Christians other than themselves is a pagan religion? To bring this message of 1888 and call it the true gospel is to try to live with both covenants at the same time, as Colleen has said. Jesus said you can't serve two masters. Now I know he was referring to mammon, but I believe this is also true in that you cannot live by the Old Covenant and the New at the same time, and I think this is what those who try to hang on to Ellen's view of the gospel, even her "progressive knowledge and revelation" and try to make it fit with the New Covenant try to do. Susan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 686 Registered: 7-2004 |
Susan, these are from letters that are over 50 years old. This isn't "new" stuff from them. Ultimately they are teaching true SDAism. Everything that isn't SDA is Babylon. They are just willing to speak it boldly, where most SDAs are quiet about this aspect of their beliefs. But we all know that the rest of Christianity is either the beast or the image of the beast (or the harlot and daughters of the harlot depending on which passage you want to talk about!) | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 327 Registered: 8-2006 |
I guess I didn't read everything they put out, then.  And I do agree that they are teaching true SDA beliefs, as I knew it from the pioneers and EGW. I must have forgotten that W&S were really pushing the back to basic Adventism. I'm thankful I've forgotten most of that stuff, frankly. Thanks, Ric Susan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 687 Registered: 7-2004 |
I have also found that some of the things I read years ago seem so much more obvious now that the blinders are off. | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 329 Registered: 8-2006 |
Well, I think that's probably the gist of it for me. I had pretty heavy blinders on, and in fact, I loved to read all of Jack Sequira's books and listen to his sermons and had a ton of materials on 1888. To think I believed that a person could actually have every sinful thought, word, deed or even their human nature perfected by cooperating with Jesus in the cleansing of the sanctuary, which, according to A.T. Jones was really in our hearts.  Talk about the holy flesh movement! Susan | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 330 Registered: 8-2006 |
Then again, it just reinforced EGW's statements that if you had one spot on your character, you could not receive the seal of God, and that it was up to us to perfect our characters so that Jesus could come. What was holding Him back was that he couldn't come until His character was perfectly reproduced in His people. How far from the true gospel. Susan | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 668 Registered: 10-2002  |
You know, in reading some of W&S's materials in University shortly before learning the Gospel, I became excited about the "1888 message", but I quickly ran into a difficult problem: defining the 1888 message. What was it? I searched through W&S's writings looking for a good summary, but could not find one. They projected their own pet beliefs and points onto J&W. Come to think of it, I don't think J&W would've been able to summarize the "1888 message" clearly, either. There was a lot of confusion. J&W seem to have seen something, but like the rest of us struggling with cognitive dissonance, made a great deal of effort to "harmonize" it with Adventism. And of course, those who followed (such as W&S) made the same effort, and it seems that the latter efforts at harmonization have had more zeal than the original efforts. Merely saying "righteousness by faith" can set someone onto a path that will eventually carry them away from Adventism... and into more joyful freedom than is possible to imagine. But because of willful pride or blind unconscious pride and cultic conditioning, many folks never follow down the path that starts from those challenging & liberating words: "righteousness by faith". This is what Paul spoke of when he said that the enemy is a spirit who blinds the eyes of those who are perishing from seeing the glory of the gospel of Christ. This is our call to intercession. Our brothers & sisters left behind in Adventism have been suffering from this confusion for too long. This is spiritual warfare, and in the Spirit we must take hold of our loved ones and cry out by the Spirit, "Let My people go!" | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5220 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're right about this being spiritual warfare, Ramone. And unless we admit that our battle is not against flesh and blood, we will become mired in endless arguments. Colleen | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 334 Registered: 8-2006 |
Amen, Colleen. I think all too often we forget that fact. Susan |
